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During recent years, I have often been both criticised and ignored when I have posted certain views or assassination "scenarios", which many call far "out of the box" and contain too great a degree of "speculation". In a review of some of these, which tho I admit are not in support of appx. 99% of the more popular thoughts or discussion subjects, I have decided that if I am at all rationally cognizant of existing "facts", these ideas / speculations are factually quite sound and are theoretically and factually more sound than many well accepted theories which are still being ( RE ) discussed to the point of nausea.

I have taken a great deal of flak for being "overly speculative." By my thinking, other than for many details involving persons whom might have been associated with this conspiracy, the past couple of decades has really introduced nothing that has changed or increased knowlege of what occurred in Dealey Plaza. In order to proceed, it will be necessary to reiterate several of my past statements which I find increasingly valid, as I wade thru more and more of the posts in this case.....most of which I feel are "well past redundancy". Some subjects have and continue to be so overly pursued that I feel that these topics, that do little more than offer a soapbox for repetitive and quite redundant issues......that do not effect or even approach

the seeking of "closure " to this issue.

Perhaps I am completetly wrong and out of order.

I, however approach this issue as more than a forum for debate. My proposed goal for this and similar forums are much higher than acting as an arena of undirected debate.

Again; if we are not seeking closure / solution,

why are we here?

I will come now to the reason for this posting.

It should be quite evident to most who have studied this case, that we have followed only a handful of speculative theories. We ONLY KNOW that JFK was killed and JBC was seriously wounded by "apparent" gunfire in Dallas Texas on 11/22/63 at appx. 12:30 PM CST.

We Do Not know, how many shots were fired, how many gunmen fired them, where these gunmen were located, what type of weapons were used, the exact NUMBER of "hits" or separate wounds that were inflicted on either JFK or JBC, the extent of the wounds ( since there is no decided clarity on the EXACT nature or number of wounds or, in reality, the FACTUAL extent of the wounds ). We do not know if there were two shooters or ten!

In my opinion, "WE KNOW", only little morwe than what we were "MEANT To KNOW".

It would seem to me that after 43 years, if one is expecting the answer to come from these same known "facts" ......that there will be no answer.

Yet anyone attempting to introduce the thought that what occurred in Dealey Plaza is ABSOLUTELY NOT what it seems; and therefore another and different scenario must have ocurred is referred to as ignorant...."or attempting to be overly speculative and not following the preponerance of

[ EVIDENCE ? ]".

In that many of you have chosen to ignore MY personal pleadings as the ravings of "another uninformed", I will now get to the purpose of this thread.

I am proposing the addition of another and different "pinned Thread", which might be titled "Alternative Theory". In this thread we would "ignore" a few very old " FACTS " such as: three gunmen...a "military" style ambush"....triangulation of fire....a single gunman....only the use of "high or medium power rifles"....no weapons such as concealed handguns...impossibility of female assassins, spotters or helpers....and the theory that previously "undetected shooters" can be found in the continuing study of the 43 year old photographs.....and the VAIDITY "in entirety" of the Zaruder Film as being "un-soiled"!

My purpose for the creation of this thread

would be to inspire in some researchers NEW thought !

Old thought has brought only OLD and UNPROVEN

"non-solutions". Do we really feel that further study of the same "evidence" will disclose new solutions?

I have been called "out in left field"....which is true because I was a pretty good left fielder.

And I prefer to remain there, as I see the popular theories dying natural deaths as they continue to "strike out". Team morale is bound to be currently waning. Both winning and losing can be contagious !

I propose that one should imagine oneself as "the planner of the shooting"! A planner that had at his or her disposal TRULY "unlimited resources and support". How would you plan an ABSOLUTELY

ASSURED KILL ?

Perhaps I really am a kook and my "wild speculations" should continue to be ignored, so as not to overload the forum with only speculative minutae !

Also, just as an afterthought.....perhaps the three or four pages in the topic involving "Swearing" have jumped to the "forefront" of the forum because....IT IS SOMETHING NEW....It might indicate that "Boredom Prevails" as a result of the redundancy to which I have so often referred regarding the endless continuation of, in most part, entirely repetitive discussions !

Perhaps a decision should be made as to whether the forum should actively PURSUE a case solution: or whether the primary purpose of this forum is to educate the pre-college level students and to decide what they should or should not be exposed to. I realize the importance to the EDUCATORS that created this excellent forum, that this highly regarded and excellently rated forum

should not be degraded by inappropriate behaviour.

Charles Black

Edited by Charles Black
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Charles...what you propose is called DEEP POLITICS by Peter Dale Scott

and has been well studied by deep thinkers like Scott and others. I agree

that it is different from studying the evidence.

Those of us who continue to study the evidence keep hoping to find

OVERWHELMING UNDENIABLE PROOF that the murder could only have

been accomplished by persons within the govt...a COUP.

I think the proof is already there in many forms, but a compliant media

and govt provocateurs obfuscate it. Take, for instance, the autopsy x-rays.

Dr. Mantik proves BEYOND DOUBT that they are faked. Who could have

faked them?...ONLY SOMEONE FOLLOWING GOVT ORDERS...not Russians,

Cubans, Mafia, etc. Who headed the investigation who could give such

orders?...Johnson, Hoover, Dulles, et al.

Jack

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Hello Jack

I do understand your thinking and why there have been many diferent directions taken in this case by various researchers. No legitimate research has been ill intentioned or meant to be misleading. However I am stating that a major portion of the areas being studied are the result of clever conspirator manipuation and the "extending of carrots" !

I have never been of the belief that the actual "shooting" was a well executed masterpiece. IMO, this was the most botched aspect of the operation and did not go down nearly as smoothly as was planned and hoped for!

The true brilliance in this very successful "coup" has been in the careful planning of the cover ( with both LBJ and Edgar in place ) to handle the "immediate" cover, and the continous, to this day, "unfolding" of strategic and immediate "misdirection and dis-information",

which has led us to as many tangental and unimportant investigations as a porcupine has quills. When I think of the billiance of the cover, what comes to mind is the Pied Piper; piping his followers to destruction.

Human nature is such that most humans, tho not necessarily admittedly, "Want to be Led". They choose the road which is much less demanding and confrontational than "leading". They prefer to "not give their work any further consideration" after they arrive home and in the personal comfort and security to which they eagerly return.

Likewise, and this is a personal opinion only, that the same formula of seeking comfort and security in the security of the generally accepted forum ideology, is why most people who "read" this forum do not participate. They are afraid of saying something that "someone" may not like and they don't want to alienate themselves from the "safety and comfort of their peers agreement".

There seems to be the inner thought that their own personal observations, if unlike those of the masses, must be mistaken and......the whole world will both realize it and secretly perhaps, scorn them as being "stupid or wierd".

This is why major corporations have long acknowleged that "true leaders" are in very short supply.

I don't think that, mostly due to what I have just stated, there will be much response to what I have requested.

After all.....persons could make a complete and utter fool of themselves if they made a practice of following "non conformists". It is much safer to lose oneself in the middle of that very long line which is always following "The Piper" !

Few people feel deep down in their "guts", that "the truth" is more important than safety or comfort ! A very few others, believe that there are things much worse than "dying" !

When I was very young, and maybe only because of that, I deeply believed in words such as honor, trust, loyalty, sef respect, duty and truth.

I only hope that I still uphold at least some of that.

Charles Black

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Although some members might register surprise if they were told that on the Education Forum, a suggestion by a member that it was incumbent upon the membership to begin directing attention to possible different theories regarding the Dealey Plaza Shooting should be considered.....since the four decade theories being discussed daily, have entered no new light on these happenings and have have resulted only in continuing the discussion of mostly four decade old theories.....which, by the way, have produced NO unanimity among researchers.....resulted in rejection due to a general lack of interest.

It has NOT surprised me ! This is my continuing complaint with the forum which very frequently "raises hackles" among the membership, which have led to slurs against me and the general questioning of MY Intelligence and Reasoning !

Am I truly ridiculous in my thinking ? I have not suggested neiher that the world is flat nor that an apple will not fall to the ground !

If you truly do not think that new ideas are called for, it would indicate to my thought process, that the answers have been agreed upon and that the case is closed !

Had I wanted a multitude of the usual "parroted responses" from previously published works, which usually are overflowing this forum, I needed to post only one sentence such as:

I have a photograph, proven by a panel of "experts" to be unaltered and unalterable, that exposes THE ASSASSIN ! It is a Chimpanzee, wearing the uniform of a Dallas Police Officer (except for the cap), sitting atop the Pergola with an 18th century flintlock long rifle complete with telescopic sight. He s still in a seated firing position, and despite the smoke from this "high powered" black powder state of the art weapon, in the right foreground , if one looks closely, can be seen Zapruder and Sitzman on THE pedestal.

Sorry folks, but this is the last place that I would have expected a preponderance of "closed minds".

Should I continue to post here...you will read more of the same !

Charles Black

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Charles...what you propose is called DEEP POLITICS by Peter Dale Scott

and has been well studied by deep thinkers like Scott and others. I agree

that it is different from studying the evidence.

Those of us who continue to study the evidence keep hoping to find

OVERWHELMING UNDENIABLE PROOF that the murder could only have

been accomplished by persons within the govt...a COUP.

I think the proof is already there in many forms, but a compliant media

and govt provocateurs obfuscate it. Take, for instance, the autopsy x-rays.

Dr. Mantik proves BEYOND DOUBT that they are faked. Who could have

faked them?...ONLY SOMEONE FOLLOWING GOVT ORDERS...not Russians,

Cubans, Mafia, etc. Who headed the investigation who could give such

orders?...Johnson, Hoover, Dulles, et al.

Jack

************************************************************

"Who headed the investigation who could give such

orders?...Johnson, Hoover, Dulles, et al."

DULLES. First, foremost, and above everyone else.

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Charles:"Am I truly ridiculous in my thinking ? I have not suggested neiher that the world is flat nor that an apple will not fall to the ground !

If you truly do not think that new ideas are called for, it would indicate to my thought process, that the answers have been agreed upon and that the case is closed !"

Have no fear, Charles. Some of us can be truly much more ridiculous than you.

"Please allow me to introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste. I’ve been around for a long, long year, stole many a man’s soul and faith, and I was ’round when jesus christ had his moment of doubt and pain, made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate.

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name,

but what’s puzzling you is the nature of my game.

I stuck around St. Petersburg when I saw it was a time for a change, killed the czar and his ministers, Anastasia screamed in vain.

I rode a tank, held a general’s rank,

when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank...

Pleased to meet you, Hope you guess my name. Ah...what’s puzzling you is the nature of my game,

I watched with glee while your kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made. I shouted out,

Who killed the kennedys?

When after all, it was you and me...

Let me please introduce myself,

I’m a man of wealth and taste, and I laid traps for troubadours who get killed before they reached bombay. Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what’s puzzling you is the nature of my game.

Pleased to meet you hope you guessed my name, oh yeah, but what’s confusing you is just the nature of my game.

Just as every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners saints, as heads is tails, just call me Lucifer ’cause I’m in need of some restraint, so if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy, and some taste, use all your well-learned politesse or I’ll lay your soul to waste.

Pleased to meet you hope you guessed my name, but what’s puzzling you is the nature of my game. Tell me baby, what’s my name, tell me honey, can ya guess my name, tell me baby, what’s my name? I tell you one time, you’re to blame, what’s my name tell me, baby, what’s my name, tell me, sweetie, what’s my name?"

a. There are many different philosophies to align with, agreeing with a part of one does not exclude others.

b. The most significant Law that nature is the law of change.

EVERYTHING in the material world is ALWAYS changing.

Science attempts to measure reality and describe it. This will ALWAYS be an approximation, though usually sufficiently a good one that is useful and precise enough in most applications.

Many of the ills that society and those the individuals in it suffer from is as a result of endlessly trying to deny or stop this change and take charge of it. (A gross example may be for example architecture. (with 'gross', read 'broad' or 'large picture', as opposed to fine or detailed). Some thousands of years from now nothing that's built today will exist in a recognisable form.)

A few generations from now no-one except a very small minority will be remembered by anyone. Perhaps the most important thing of all is education. Why? How? What does that word mean? What is that philosophy...Whose 'history'? 'Theirs' or 'ours'?

While speaking of responsibility and accountability it goes hand in hand with education.

Informed responsibility with an awareness of the true nature of self.

'Know Thyself'.

An informed, educated person who chooses to take responsibility for ones actions and the subsequent reactions (cause and effect) will ideally gravitate to some form of anarcho-syndicalism.

This does not mean non-participation in such things as elections, or unions, or church, quite the contrary.

There is the story of the glass that is to the pessimist half empty, and to the optimist it's half full.

- to the Realist it's neither - it's both.

(There's no need to have an emotional attachment to it.)

An educated aware realistic persona with a defensive/educated posture in a realistic evaluation of other groupings is the way to go.

The dominant thinking controlling the world today are deliberate produce from think tanks. (Such as, for example, the spawns of the John Birch Society.)

This, and other think tanks, produce an endless stream of propaganda for lazy politicians to use to formulate and justify their policies.

Economic Rationalism, for example, has spread its tentacles very widely. The demands that organisations such as the World Bank place on developing nations are well thought out with specific aims. Left ideology is often a response to these things. It's a cycle of cause and effect.

The point is to discern which parts of these cycles are healthy for humanity as a whole and which are only healthy for a few, and consequently, in the fullness of time, unhealthy for all.

_____________

- revisiting JJ Angletons greenhouse.

It would seem that from the very scant attention paid to 'Angletons Orchids' that the mystery as to what he meant is common knowledge.

What a wonderful guise for an Orchid. Its very core decoy is accepted as real.

Of course back in Dallas on November 22, '63, for short while, the truth was clear.

No 'evidence' had as yet been 'uncovered' so Jackie and her intimates, the average jane and joe citizen, black and white, even Hosty and co, instinctively knew 'they' had done it.

When the 'evidence' as to who 'they' were came to light, Jackie said "He didn't even have the satisfaction of being killed for Civil Rights...".

The nation followed suit. A wierd and wonderful excursion into lala land ensued, which has held generations befuddled for close to half a century.

The conspiracy IS the conspiracy. The perfect self perpetuating Enigma. A little sweetener here, a nudge there, all inexorably steering mind and spirit away from the self evident.

_______________

Harry - 'Trained Suspicioner' DA-T7

There were indeed reports of shots from the Left.

Harry - "....Right after the assassination I called the boss in Fort Worth, who already had the chief on the phone line in Washington because everything was chaos. He told me, “Well, you’re in charge of the investigation over there for whatever they need in the way of postal inspectors’ help or co-operation. The entire manpower that we have over there is at your disposal and we’ll send more if you need them.”

"All the federal agencies would band together though they didn’t know what to do."

"Actually, for a while, they thought the shots came from my building, the Terminal Annex."

"So immediately we interviewed everybody on the floors on that side of the building to see what they knew or had seen because there was a possibility that it came from the post office. Of course, that was cleared up in a hurry."

"I had the radio on all the time but there wasn’t much that I could do. I had called Captain Fritz and told him, “If there is anything I can do, why, I’m available and I’ve got plenty of men available...”

_________________________

a scenario

"It has been a day of changing conditions, a tendency for sun, gusty wind conditions, the physical characteristics of the kill zone means that the wind at street level may be unpredictable, but where I am, elevated, it's steadier. I have a clear line of sight over most of the target area. The sun is off to the side. It's noontime, late in the year, northern hemisphere. With me is my 'signal man'. My job is to just shoot and scoot. My 'signal man', keeps a wide eye open for the right time, taking into account upcoming people clusters and obstructions, ready to tap my shoulder.

I have prepared in detail. Out of a selection of rifles, I have chosen for this occasion a 7.65 caliber 1949 FN Semi Automatic Argentine Mauser. In my hands, with my experience, highly reliable.

Should the patsy be hard to tie down, the backup patsy with a mauser to match alternate bullet identification is waiting in the wings.

The barrel I describe as having a right hand twist (clockwise twist when looking from the trigger area?) The type of scope I have chosen is top class, carefully mounted and calibrated, giving me a good field of view. It's calibrated with the bullets/cartridges which are prepared by myself, and with careful test shooting to maximise reliability. I have choosen bullets that have similar behavioural characteristics to those of the patsies' rifles.

Given that I am shooting at a distance of about 150 meters, on a slightly downward path from an area of known wind conditions into one with possible unpredictable conditions I need to consider various standard factors. The coreolis force considerations are negligible. The temperature, air pressure, path slope, considerations are taken care of. Over this distance the bullet should settle into a predictable tumle/yaw quite quickly. I don't like to use a silencer and am completely confident that the diversions by the RR yard will successfully make that redundant anyway.

The path the bullet will be following will be an arc that rises first, then dropping with increasing rapidity as the forward velocity of the bullet drops. Also, taking into account the barrel twist and the minimal coreolis force I expect this arc to also curve to the right. I expect that on impact the bullet aspect will be fairly level as opposed to the path which will be as stated a downward, sideways right curve. The 'signal man' will ensure that unnecessary collateral damage will be minimised and as the bullet will drop down into the vehicle onto target, standard wound ballistics should ensure rapid deceleration of bullet and any exits should be contained within the vehicle. The clip of 20 is superfluous but it's fully loaded to function properly. The physical characteristics of my location will contain brass spit.

It is reasonable for me to expect a 3 inch pattern at 150 meters.

As I know that the target will be travelling from east to west, from my point of view right to left, and I am right handed I need to consider with regards to this shoot a simple steady track dependent on the spotter keeping me informed about the overall scene.

The radio is tuned correctly, and the coded signals hidden in the open, keeping us alert as to the progress of the target.

The diversion team is in place.

The patsy is 'in the building'.

whack......whack.whack, pick pick pick, rattle, click, zip, bag, ...bye.

A glance over my shoulder as I leave tells me that the conspiracy to create the conspiracy speculations that will hide the real conspiracy is already proceeding as planned. Aren't sheep wonderful. Set a few running and the rest will follow..every time.

>Home."

There you go: a set of ramblings of a wayward mind, with less regard for being accepted, compared to somehow finding the truth. (Personally, I prefer Blade III. The extended version.

"Blade: [noticing vampire tattoo] You're human.

Kounen: Barely. I'm a lawyer")

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Charles, if you really want to be open-minded, and not just another agenda pusher, you have to accept the possibility that the Parkland witnesses were wrong, and that the wound on the top of the head in the autopsy photos is the wound seen at Parkland, just a few inches further forward than remembered.

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Hello Pat Speer

Pat, the only "agenda" that I am pushing is that the research community has suffered from 43 years of "tunnel vision". No other theory or agenda; except we have "been led" on an outward spiraling concentric circle of false leads and tangental information. I have suggested only that the shooting portion of the investigation, if it is really relative, be viewed from a completely different perspective. What we "think" happened, in my opinion has been altered.....and that this misdirection is / was the primary instrument of the cover up.

Frankly, I did seriously look at your theory; I actually wanted to agree with it but I was unable to. I can in no way believe that trained medical personnel at Parkland along with FBI and SS agents were unanimously disoriented in their viewing and description of the Presidents wounds. I seriously disagree wth your assessment !

As most who have studied this issue over a long period of time, we here on the forum pretty much agree on who were the leaders of the conspiracy. This is no mystery ! Can we do anything about re-instating a legitimate government? I don't think so. However I would like the satisfaction at least, of having hisory correctly recorded.

The primary reason that I am in conflct with your personal theory is, the two areas which involve the Dealey Plaza happenings which I personally have faith in, are the testimonies of over 40 Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses (testimony taken only during the afternoon of 11/22/63) and the testimony given, during that time period alone, of the expert Parkland Hospital medical staff.

These statements are backed by several of the Bethesda Hospital staff as well as the autopsists. That is why I cannot, despite your explanations, take "your theory" seriously.

I stated that I do not have an agenda...however that might be a little misleading.

In a nut shell this is what I believe regarding Dealey Plaza:

1) JFK and JBC were struck by an unknown number of missiles.

2) These missiles originated from areas and persons still unidentified 43 years later.

3) The total number of missiles fired including missed shots cannot be determined.

4) The number, manufacturer, and caliber of the weapons used is unknown.

5) Over 40 eyewitnesses described the impact of

the missiles quite diferently than what is depicted in the Zapruder film....I therefore strongly believe that the Z film has been altered by certain agencies of the U.S. government.

I could go on with my numbering, but it would serve no purpose.

The ONLY reason why I reached out for "fresh thinking", is that for 43 years we have been government agency led, in what should be by now well acknowledged, a series of false paths which has put us on this infintessimal outward spiraling concentric circle. As time passes, our distance "from the sun" is ever increasing.

I am asking for thought only....not agreement with any self originated theory. I have asked only that people think. Why my proposal seems so preposterous that it continually has been ignored, is beyond my reasoning. I am asking you to help yourselves "help the world".

Charles Black has no "agenda" and is promoting no singular theory.....except that WE have been cleverly led, for 43 years, down a ridiculous and well trodden path. How about that "Road Less Travelled " !

Charles Black

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Hello All

I want to thank you !

This glaringly obvious lack of response has been more supportive to me of my personal and possibly singular beliefs, than either a hundered responses of agreement or disagreement.

It strongly indicates, to me at least, that what I have stated is "rationally inarguable". To you others, it no doubt has an entirely different meaning and that it is quite unworthy of response. Perhaps this study of 43 year old testimony and photographs, has not had quite the time necessary for adequate evaluation, and I have just become impatient !

My apologies to you all for your patient indulgence of my ramblings.

Charles Black

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