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Reasonable Minds Do Differ!


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Jack,

To restate your question: Do I agree that "ANYONE PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP OF THE ASSASSINATION IS AN ACCESSORY TO THE ASSASSINATION"?

I'll phrase it this way: To this layman (non-lawyer), anyone knowingly participating in the cover-up of any felony -- which is to say, obstructing justice --is to be considered an accessory after the fact.

Further, we are in agreement that the cover-up is a major component of the plot, one that continues to this very second.

Charles

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The conspiracy IS the conspiracy

In other words, it is in fact that which it isn't.

When the majority of people go to vote it's not their carefully thought out analysis of Dr Blabla's proposals of the Whatsit's situation, or the wishes of a minority grouping in Woop-Woop. Basically, it's somethig like: "will my wallet be thicker or thinner?"

Sometimes a self righteous relief derived from politicians using assorted warm and fuzzy, or alternate table thumping rhetoric, the two coincide, and a measure of relief by not having to face ones essential self interest is attained.

Given this fundamental raison d'etre, the populations target is primed to drift towards 'anybody else' or 'them', being Cubans, Anti Cubans, Comunists, Socialists, Lone Nuts, The Covert Agencies. The Mob, One's political 'Opponents' of Choice, The Jews, or any complex intertweining of such elements. As long as it isn't me, or my neighbour, for any simple basic hip pocket human reasons.

Thus the Conspirators can rest, assured, knowing that the CT'ers are doing the job, and the Anti-CT'ers are provided with ample ammunition.

On and on it goes, round the mulberry bush.

________________

Millions of Americans, throughout the Southern States, were facing dramatic changes to centuries old economic status quo's. The sharecroppers and their overseers, workers in all industries, were about to gain freedom of movement, choice of where to live, where to study and hence what to study, which skills to accuire, career choices, leave one job and take another, and not least the freedom to vote, denied for centuries, about to become a rerality for a huge number of people.

Hate is an emotion that essentially is the product of a blockage of the pain of grief arising from change. When that change is percieved as being a loss, the pain, blockage, and the resultant neurosis arising from the processing of it in unhealthy ways, by catharsis, or by sublimation, reveals itself in sociopathic and psychopathic forms of behaviour and thinking where the sufferers are vulnerable to suggestion, to wrong thinking, and to wrong action.

_______________

The economic upheaval of true Civil Rights for all, counterposed with a whole system or society constructed to provide dogma and wrong thinking processes enforced by rigid norms and life long programming, leads to clashes of monumental proportions.

This is the 'atmosphere' within which young Emmett Till, Medgar Evers, the Kennedy Brothers, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, The Mississippi Three, and uncounted flocks of Freedom Riders, CORE personnell, Students, Black Panthers, and many others met their deaths, in most instances, at that time, and likely for ever, without true justice being meted out to the perpetrators.

_________________

Had the general population been cognizant, as is possible today, (should only the will to be so prevail), the sixties, starting with the assassination of JFK, and the logical connection to Medgar Evers been widely made, or rather: had the courage to do so existed) the USofA would have 'gone just a little further west' and 'though the heavens may fall' justice would have been demanded, ultimately in the streets, and a tyrrany overthtrown.

This is what the ruling bodies knew, and that is the reason a first strike option was contemplated, and the horror of it understood, and therein the 'logic; of the Presidential Commisssion: The W.C. its findings, conclusions and witting compliance with by those in power and their voice, the media.

Therein also the correct sense that something 'is 'rotten in denmark', and the pervasive drive by countless persons to uncover, to make sense of the non-sense, to seek justice.

Therein the long hot summers, COINTELPRO-INFIL, the divided society, the flower children and the Weathermen, Manson and Lennon, The days of Rage, the Panthers, the KKK, the Neo Nazis, the dropouts, the Bus, the Acid Tests, the ghouls in the White House, the Bush's, Nixon, Raygun, the Contras and the death squads in Latin/South America, and the flooding of the streets of the US with highly addictive, dissociative Drugs, the footfall in the Middle East starting with the seven year Iraq-US attack on Iran, where the progressive elements of the Iranian revolution died at the front, the rise of the Ayatollahs, Islamic Fundamentalism, Christian Identity millinealists, and the strategy of Tension.

So little suffering is possible, but so much promoted and fueled in a spiral of destruction, continually seeding the new generations of enemies.

Therein also the opportunistic carrot and stick, tantalising scents that lead nowhere, barricades that befuddlle, repel and frighten. The use of the opportunities presented in unrelated matters by various groupings.

Therein the origin of a massive industry in publishing. Therein careers and egos flourish and die. Therein the elusive enigmas, wrapped in a riddle, greenhouses full of deceitful orchids, room's full of smoke and mirrors.

_________________

Meanwhile, the conspirators, remain, unseen, in full sunlight.

Business as usual.

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The conspiracy IS the conspiracy

In other words, it is in fact that which it isn't.

When the majority of people go to vote it's not their carefully thought out analysis of Dr Blabla's proposals of the Whatsit's situation, or the wishes of a minority grouping in Woop-Woop. Basically, it's somethig like: "will my wallet be thicker or thinner?"

Sometimes a self righteous relief derived from politicians using assorted warm and fuzzy, or alternate table thumping rhetoric, the two coincide, and a measure of relief by not having to face ones essential self interest is attained.

Given this fundamental raison d'etre, the populations target is primed to drift towards 'anybody else' or 'them', being Cubans, Anti Cubans, Comunists, Socialists, Lone Nuts, The Covert Agencies. The Mob, One's political 'Opponents' of Choice, The Jews, or any complex intertweining of such elements. As long as it isn't me, or my neighbour, for any simple basic hip pocket human reasons.

Thus the Conspirators can rest, assured, knowing that the CT'ers are doing the job, and the Anti-CT'ers are provided with ample ammunition.

On and on it goes, round the mulberry bush.

________________

Millions of Americans, throughout the Southern States, were facing dramatic changes to centuries old economic status quo's. The sharecroppers and their overseers, workers in all industries, were about to gain freedom of movement, choice of where to live, where to study and hence what to study, which skills to accuire, career choices, leave one job and take another, and not least the freedom to vote, denied for centuries, about to become a rerality for a huge number of people.

Hate is an emotion that essentially is the product of a blockage of the pain of grief arising from change. When that change is percieved as being a loss, the pain, blockage, and the resultant neurosis arising from the processing of it in unhealthy ways, by catharsis, or by sublimation, reveals itself in sociopathic and psychopathic forms of behaviour and thinking where the sufferers are vulnerable to suggestion, to wrong thinking, and to wrong action.

_______________

The economic upheaval of true Civil Rights for all, counterposed with a whole system or society constructed to provide dogma and wrong thinking processes enforced by rigid norms and life long programming, leads to clashes of monumental proportions.

This is the 'atmosphere' within which young Emmett Till, Medgar Evers, the Kennedy Brothers, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, The Mississippi Three, and uncounted flocks of Freedom Riders, CORE personnell, Students, Black Panthers, and many others met their deaths, in most instances, at that time, and likely for ever, without true justice being meted out to the perpetrators.

_________________

Had the general population been cognizant, as is possible today, (should only the will to be so prevail), the sixties, starting with the assassination of JFK, and the logical connection to Medgar Evers been widely made, or rather: had the courage to do so existed) the USofA would have 'gone just a little further west' and 'though the heavens may fall' justice would have been demanded, ultimately in the streets, and a tyrrany overthtrown.

This is what the ruling bodies knew, and that is the reason a first strike option was contemplated, and the horror of it understood, and therein the 'logic; of the Presidential Commisssion: The W.C. its findings, conclusions and witting compliance with by those in power and their voice, the media.

Therein also the correct sense that something 'is 'rotten in denmark', and the pervasive drive by countless persons to uncover, to make sense of the non-sense, to seek justice.

Therein the long hot summers, COINTELPRO-INFIL, the divided society, the flower children and the Weathermen, Manson and Lennon, The days of Rage, the Panthers, the KKK, the Neo Nazis, the dropouts, the Bus, the Acid Tests, the ghouls in the White House, the Bush's, Nixon, Raygun, the Contras and the death squads in Latin/South America, and the flooding of the streets of the US with highly addictive, dissociative Drugs, the footfall in the Middle East starting with the seven year Iraq-US attack on Iran, where the progressive elements of the Iranian revolution died at the front, the rise of the Ayatollahs, Islamic Fundamentalism, Christian Identity millinealists, and the strategy of Tension.

So little suffering is possible, but so much promoted and fueled in a spiral of destruction, continually seeding the new generations of enemies.

Therein also the opportunistic carrot and stick, tantalising scents that lead nowhere, barricades that befuddlle, repel and frighten. The use of the opportunities presented in unrelated matters by various groupings.

Therein the origin of a massive industry in publishing. Therein careers and egos flourish and die. Therein the elusive enigmas, wrapped in a riddle, greenhouses full of deceitful orchids, room's full of smoke and mirrors.

_________________

Meanwhile, the conspirators, remain, unseen, in full sunlight.

Business as usual.

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Of course on this very Forum I have, occasionally, been subject to the same type of intellectual arrogance I am trying to condemn through this thread.

For some, a person is a "disinformation agent" or perhaps even a "minion of the conspiracy" even if he believes in a conspiracy but does not agree with the right conspiracy!

Based on the medical evidence, it is far easier to conclude there was a conspiracy than it is to determine who were the parties to the conspiracy.

But again the arrogance behind such sentiments as "only my position is correct and any rational person understands that" is exhibited very strongly by Bugliosi and others of his ilk as well as by some on our side of the conspiracy question. (By the way, I do not see that kind of arrogance from Professor McAdams.)

1. In the application of logic, one must study ALL of the applicable facts.

2. Any "logic" which is a result of an inept study of the facts is of it's own nature an inept and incomplete approach to logical resolution.

3. A complete study of the WC by anyone thoroughtly skilled in the application of logic, should always result in the determination that the WC is not

a logical answer to the facts of the assassination.

And, when one finds such items as the altered evidence; the hiding of information relative to the third shot; the problems with the WC's vehicle speeds; etc; etc;, then logic also dictates that the WC was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination.

Thereafter, one frequently leaves the world of "logic" and enters into the world of mythological creatures; multiple assassins; and body snatchers.

All of which are completely illogical and which have absollutely no basis or foundation in factual evidence.

So, the "logical" truth and fact that the WC is an intentional mis-representation of the facts (aka lie), is not prima facie evidence for the many and often ridiculous theories as to the reason for this lie.

It is merely evidence that the WC, for whatever reason, is a lie.

Thereafter, the "Logical" approach must be again applied to determine the exact reason(s) for this lie on the part of the WC.

In that regards, Bugliosi can easily and logically shoot down virtually any of the so-called "conspiracy theories" which continue to be expounded and which are without any basis or foundation in factual evidence.

Thus, even though one may be able to demonstrate the "logic" of the WC's misrepresentations, the illogical nature of the claims of multiple assassins, body snatchers; and GIANT conspiracies which encompass half of the known world, easily negate any logical and factual gains made in demonstration that the WC is not a true presentation of the facts of the assassination.

Tereafter, excuses for the WC are easily done by merely making excuses for the "mistakes", errors; lack of information available, etc; etc; in which one can give the WC the "out" for having made these mistakes of judgement.

Unfortunately! Altered Survey Data and intentional hiding of this alteration IS NOT an error in judgement.

1. Anyone who approaches this issue with an open mind, can not walk away from it and not be fully assured that the WC IS NOT the truth and facts, and is in fact an intentional misrepresentation of these facts for some, as yet unrevealed reason.

Just as Senator Schweiker stated.

2. Thereafter, logic , and the application of logic, appears to have escaped those who truly search for the answers to this enigma.

John...one of your best postings! Hooray for logic!

Jack

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Of course on this very Forum I have, occasionally, been subject to the same type of intellectual arrogance I am trying to condemn through this thread.

For some, a person is a "disinformation agent" or perhaps even a "minion of the conspiracy" even if he believes in a conspiracy but does not agree with the right conspiracy!

Based on the medical evidence, it is far easier to conclude there was a conspiracy than it is to determine who were the parties to the conspiracy.

But again the arrogance behind such sentiments as "only my position is correct and any rational person understands that" is exhibited very strongly by Bugliosi and others of his ilk as well as by some on our side of the conspiracy question. (By the way, I do not see that kind of arrogance from Professor McAdams.)

1. In the application of logic, one must study ALL of the applicable facts.

2. Any "logic" which is a result of an inept study of the facts is of it's own nature an inept and incomplete approach to logical resolution.

3. A complete study of the WC by anyone thoroughtly skilled in the application of logic, should always result in the determination that the WC is not

a logical answer to the facts of the assassination.

And, when one finds such items as the altered evidence; the hiding of information relative to the third shot; the problems with the WC's vehicle speeds; etc; etc;, then logic also dictates that the WC was an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination.

Thereafter, one frequently leaves the world of "logic" and enters into the world of mythological creatures; multiple assassins; and body snatchers.

All of which are completely illogical and which have absollutely no basis or foundation in factual evidence.

So, the "logical" truth and fact that the WC is an intentional mis-representation of the facts (aka lie), is not prima facie evidence for the many and often ridiculous theories as to the reason for this lie.

It is merely evidence that the WC, for whatever reason, is a lie.

Thereafter, the "Logical" approach must be again applied to determine the exact reason(s) for this lie on the part of the WC.

In that regards, Bugliosi can easily and logically shoot down virtually any of the so-called "conspiracy theories" which continue to be expounded and which are without any basis or foundation in factual evidence.

Thus, even though one may be able to demonstrate the "logic" of the WC's misrepresentations, the illogical nature of the claims of multiple assassins, body snatchers; and GIANT conspiracies which encompass half of the known world, easily negate any logical and factual gains made in demonstration that the WC is not a true presentation of the facts of the assassination.

Tereafter, excuses for the WC are easily done by merely making excuses for the "mistakes", errors; lack of information available, etc; etc; in which one can give the WC the "out" for having made these mistakes of judgement.

Unfortunately! Altered Survey Data and intentional hiding of this alteration IS NOT an error in judgement.

1. Anyone who approaches this issue with an open mind, can not walk away from it and not be fully assured that the WC IS NOT the truth and facts, and is in fact an intentional misrepresentation of these facts for some, as yet unrevealed reason.

Just as Senator Schweiker stated.

2. Thereafter, logic , and the application of logic, appears to have escaped those who truly search for the answers to this enigma.

John...one of your best postings! Hooray for logic!

Jack

I POSTED THIS AS A REPLY TO JOHN DOLVA...AND SOMEHOW UNKNOWN TO ME

IT HAS BEEN ATTACHED TO A MESSAGE BY TOM PURVIS. IT WAS NOT THIS WAY

WHEN I POSTED IT. WHEN I POSTED IT, I WAS NOT AWARE OF ANY OTHER REPLIES.

Edited by Jack White
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[...]

But again the arrogance behind such sentiments as "only my position is correct and any rational person understands that" is exhibited very strongly by Bugliosi and others of his ilk as well as by some on our side of the conspiracy question. (By the way, I do not see that kind of arrogance from Professor McAdams.)

perhaps you need more seasoning.....:)

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"Conspiracy in the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy is historical fact."

Charles Drago

Charles, can you give me the top three non-contravertible reasons that establish the existence of a conspiracy?

Thanks!

P.S. I ask this question not only to develop this thread but also for possible suggestions for an ad re the assassination, being discussed in another thread.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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[...]

But again the arrogance behind such sentiments as "only my position is correct and any rational person understands that" is exhibited very strongly by Bugliosi and others of his ilk as well as by some on our side of the conspiracy question. (By the way, I do not see that kind of arrogance from Professor McAdams.)

perhaps you need more seasoning.....:)

Be it of any solace!

I also "arrogantly" challanged John McAdams to "debunk" how CE399 came to exist and the wound(s) which it is responsible for, as presented on this forum.

No answer or reply to date, and that was a few years back!

only my position is correct

John;

Were it "only my position", then the tree limb through which CE399 passed would most probably be in my hands, as opposed to whoever it was from the WC grouping that cut and removed these limbs from the top of the tree the day after completion of the WC assassination re-enactment.

You and others operate under some misguided concept that you are smarter, or else know more than did the entire contingent and ability of the FBI and the US Secret Service.

Pesonally, I attempt to stick within my limited abilities, which includes knowing that these entities were far more capable of resolving the issues of the assassination that I.

and any rational person understands that

A "rational person" is not likely to go off hunting a murder carrying a "pen knife" when in fact the victim was shot to death and thereafter cut up with a chainsaw.

So, until such time as you and a few others actually resolve the medical issues as to how JFK was assassinated, you are completely lost in the forest chasing multiple assassins and body snatchers when in reality you have no foundation or basis in fact to even know if such a creature existed.

The great majority of CT theory has centered itself on the completely worn out misconception that three shots were fired within the less than 6-second time frame of the first shot to the Z313 headshot.

Which merely means that you fell for the "used car salesman line" of the WC which told you that Z313 was the last shot fired.

You and many of the others fell for this! Not Me!

And, what is even worse, you fell for it when there is clear and concisive evidence within the WC itself which not only tells you where the impact point of the third/last/final shot was, but also clearly presents more than sufficient eyewitness testimony to demonstrate that the headshot at Z313 was in fact the second shot as well as eyewitness testimony as to the approximate position of the limousine at the time of the third shot, to include the testimony of James Altgnes who observed this shot strike JFK.

Nevertheless, rather than admit that for whatever reason they can not not resolve the simple issues of the assassination, many have had to fall back onto mythological multiple assassins and body snatchers, as opposed to admitting to themselves and the world that they just do not have the ability to figure this puzzle out.

Which merely demonstrates that Arlen Specter & Company are by far smarter than they are.

Now! Those who truly search for the truth and facts in how the assassination occurred, must either admit that they have had the wool pulled over their eyes, remove that wool and thus get on with the task at hand of exposing the lies, or continue to chase mythological beings down in the rabbit holes of Alice in Wonderland.

1. Three shots were fired!

2. There were three hits to JFK!

3. LHO was, by all known standards, and absolutely superior and excellent shot at ranges of 500 yards or less, when firing from a fixed position.

4. The Carcano is an absolutely accurate weapon when not worn out.

5. There was approximatley 5.6 to 5.9 seconds of elapsed time between the first shot and the headshot at Z313. More than sufficient time for even a boy scout to re-acquire the target and shoot.

6. There was an extremely short period of time between the second shot impact at Z313 and the third shot which also struck JFK in the head down in front of James Altgens position, and although striking JFK, it was in fact a "snap-shot" which was a combination of luck and skill.

7. Forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact do not lie and make up mythological tales.

8. Failure to understand what is fact, leads many to make up tails. (which beats having to admit that one can nor resolve the equation).

Lastly, I personally abhor ignorance. Thus, for one to claim to be a researcher into this subject matter when in fact they have not even bothered to read the many factual items within the WC, and they thereafter base their research primarily on the movie JFK and other such "junk" books, leads one to understand exactly why there is frequently a need for a "totalitarian" type government to control such un-abated ignorance.

Fortunately, there is a younger generation, and many of them are in fact reviewing this as well as other postings on the subject matter of the JFK assassination.

Therefore, if nothing else, it would be my hope that by "painting" and pointing to the ignorance which is frequently repeated as if fact, that they will learn the necessity of proper research into whatever subject matter or field of endeavor that they so chose in life.

"Specialty" is what has advanced civilization to this extent, and understanding the need for complete research of any subject matter is a prime necessity of a specialized society.

So, if calling others ignorant of the facts helps to establish a new generation who checks out the shoe prior to inserting it into their mouth, it is a small price to pay for those who will carry on the JFK work, or whatever that they chose in life.

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"Conspiracy in the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy is historical fact."

Charles Drago

Charles, can you give me the top three non-contravertible reasons that establish the existence of a conspiracy?

Thanks!

P.S. I ask this question not only to develop this thread but also for possible suggestions for an ad re the assassination, being discussed in another thread.

Tim,

If the proposed ad is to have any positive impact on the quest for justice in this case, in my opinion it must focus exclusively on the "how" of the assassination and assiduously avoid discussions of the "who" and "why" investigative areas.

The answer to "how" JFK was killed -- by criminal conspirators -- can proven to the degree of metaphysical certitude.

My top three may not be yours. FWIW:

The impossibility of the SBT.

Medical evidence for multiple head shots.

Eyewitness, earwitness, and electronic evidence for an assassin to the front of the limousine at the time of the shooting.

David Lifton has it right. The body is the best evidence.

Charles

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Charles, I agree with you completely that the purpose of the ad should be to demonstratively prove the existence of a conspiracy and not who or why. Those questions are best left for an official investigation. It would of course be wonderful if the ad would generate enough public outcry to demand a new investigation.

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