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CE399-Last Time


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Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received

Mr. FRAZIER - There did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to the bullet. There may be a slight amount of lead missing from the base of the bullet, since it is exposed at the base, and the bullet is slightly flattened; there could be a slight weight loss from the end of the bullet, but it would not amount to more than 4 grains, because 158.6 is only a grain and a half less than the normal weight, and at least a 2 grain variation would be allowed. So it would be approximately 3 or 4 grains.

Mr. EISENBERG - Were the markings on the bullet at all defaced?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; they were, in that the bullet is distorted by having been slightly flattened or twisted.

Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, running through the middle of the exhibit there seem to be finer lines on the right- hand side than on the left. Could you explain that, the reason why the lines come out with more detail or that there are more lines on the right side than on the left?

Mr. FRAZIER - Those marks could be the result of the bullet striking some object after it was fired, or they could be the result of changes having taken place in the barrel.

For instance, even a piece of coarse cloth, leather or some other object could have polished the surface of the metal slightly and left infinitesimal scratches which, when enlarged sufficiently, actually look like marks on the bullet.

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NOTE:

Mr. FRAZIER

Now, there are two types of marks produced in a cutting operation. One, from the nicks along the cutting edge of the tool, which are produced by a circular operating tool--which produce very fine scratches in a circular pattern. Each time the tool goes around, it erases those marks that were there before. And when the tool is finally lifted out, you have a series of marks which go around the surface which has been machined.

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Actually, circular scratch marks can also be made if for instance, that item which causes the scratches happens to be a stationary object, and the bullet happens to be turning/spinning when it encounters the stationary object.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/index.html

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/33-3322a.gif

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/33-3317a.gif

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Clearly the photo posted of CE399 shows one half of the bullet.

On this half can be seen in whole or in part...

FOUR LANDS AND THREE GROOVES.

Numerous ballistics experts have looked at this photo and said

it is impossible for the hidden side of the bullet to have only ONE

GROOVE....therefore the bullet HAS MORE THAN FOUR GROOVES.

Grooves are created in the rifle barrel. The MC rifle has only

FOUR grooves, and could not have fired the bullet.

Jack

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Clearly the photo posted of CE399 shows one half of the bullet.

On this half can be seen in whole or in part...

FOUR LANDS AND THREE GROOVES.

Numerous ballistics experts have looked at this photo and said

it is impossible for the hidden side of the bullet to have only ONE

GROOVE....therefore the bullet HAS MORE THAN FOUR GROOVES.

Grooves are created in the rifle barrel. The MC rifle has only

FOUR grooves, and could not have fired the bullet.

Jack

Jack;

The older you get, the more forgetful you appear to also be.

Just in case your memory can be "jogged", I long ago also, along with the bottom mount sling swivel, and the curb impact fragments on Elm St., "debunked" the mytholigical SIX GROOVE BULLET which you, Livingston, and a host of other totally uninformed persons continute to perpetuate.

If you wish to continue with this and again demonstrate to those who do not know of what you speak, that the mythological SIX GROOVE BULLET of which you speak is nothing more than a specific view of CE399 in which severe corrosion buildup inside the grooves of the rifle barrel created elongated scratches along the length of CE399, which by the nature of the "twist" of the rifling, also parallels the actual rifle markings imparted to CE#399, then by all means be my guest to demonstrate again exactly how little you know about anything.

However, please place it under something along with your "bottom sling" mount, etc; etc; etc; under the category of hypothetical thoughts by hypothetical experts.

Find one truly qualified member of the AFTE (Association of Firearms & Toolmark Examiners) who will state that these parallel scratch marks represent rifling marks, and you have credence.

Because Harry Livingston, who has also demonstrated that he knows nothing about ballistic fact, along with yourself and someone who once claimed to be a "Ballistician" claims that these scratches represent rifling grooves imparted to the bullet, is hardly sufficient evidence for me to do more than laugh at this claim.

Last time that I checked, Robert Frazier was still alive, and to my knowledge he most certainly was not as forgetful as you appear to be.

So, why not call and speak with him on the subject matter.

Hell, I located and spoke with him numerous times about CE399.

But then again, I quite obviously operate under the confused concept that one is actually to do research prior to insertion of foot into mouth.

In event anyone here actually believes your "SIX GROOVE BULLET" BS, then start another topic on it and I will clearly demonstrate (again) that the "extra grooves" which you and your following of "EXPERTS" want to talk of is merely as stated. Severe corrosion down within the groove of the rifle barrel which imparted parallel scratches onto the bullet.

Which by the way also confirms that to a relatively high degree of probability, that this was the first shot to be fired as the first shot pretty well "swabs" the barrell of such corrosion/crud buildup as a result of having not properly cleaned the weapon after last firing.

Lastly!

Despite what most think, there was in fact a 6-groove Carcano rifle barrel. It was made for those 6.5mm Carcano weapons which the Italians made for the Japanese Army.

Unfortunately, the barrel is not interchangable with the actual Italian Carcano, and again unfortunately, this is the only known 6.5mm caliber, 6-groove rifle barrel known to have been made.

Reckon you had best be looking for a "Jap" Carcano somewhere around the TSDB!

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Since it becomes quite evident that few here have actually taken the time and effort to read and study the WC documents and testimonies, one can readily assume the same for the HSCA.

Not to mention having expended the time, effort, and funds necessary to acquire that information which is absolutley essential if one wishes to gather ALL known factual information on a specific subject matter.

With the release of the initial photo's of CE399, when turned over to the National Archives, added to those photographs taken for the HSCA Investigation, one can piece together certain aspects as this bullet journeyed from one with an intact copper jacket at the bullet base as well as the HSCA version in which the copper jacket was now gone.

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The researcher who discovered the land/groove discrepancy was Walt Cakebread

of California, a rifle expert/hunter himself. His son is an engineer. His son PROJECTED

THE 399 image onto A CYLINDER and showed with an engineering drawing that the

cylinder had six grooves. The late John Ritcheson, gunnery expert and master

gunsmith by profession, said the same. Yet we are to believe Tom, who insists that

they are wrong.

????

Jack

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The researcher who discovered the land/groove discrepancy was Walt Cakebread

of California, a rifle expert/hunter himself. His son is an engineer. His son PROJECTED

THE 399 image onto A CYLINDER and showed with an engineering drawing that the

cylinder had six grooves. The late John Ritcheson, gunnery expert and master

gunsmith by profession, said the same. Yet we are to believe Tom, who insists that

they are wrong.

????

Jack

Yet we are to believe Tom, who insists that

they are wrong.

Actually Jack:

I personally would seek out those who truly possessed the training, experience, qualifications, and demonstrated expertise (as in Expert Witness) and ask them their opinions.

Especially if I knew absolutely ZERO about the subject matter.

That way, one is considerably less likely to look like some old fool who not only knows nothing, but also lacks the ability to go to those who can provide the correct answer.

Might I again recommend the AFTE (Association of Firearms & Toolmark Examiners)!

I am certain that they would appreciate a good laugh when you attempt to sell them on the "Six Groove Bullet" BS.

The researcher who discovered the land/groove discrepancy was Walt Cakebread

of California, a rifle expert/hunter himself. His son is an engineer. His son PROJECTED

THE 399 image onto A CYLINDER and showed with an engineering drawing that the

cylinder had six grooves

Other than for the sake of historical significance in establishment of degrees of stupidity, I personally could care less as to who dreamed up this BS.

Harry Livingstone was attempting to "sell" this used car to me back in 1994.

I did not buy it then, and even as senile as I may be getting in my older age, I still am not buying it.

Perhaps, in another 30 years or so I may have lost all ability for rational thought and just may give it consideration. We will just have to wait around and see.

The late John Ritcheson, gunnery expert and master

gunsmith by profession, said the same.

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National Registry Master Gunsmith Tm Those who wish to become certified as a Master Gunsmith will submit an application, have their experience, training and education evaluated, and if awarded they will receive national certification with the association which will include a certificate and they will have their name listed on the national registry. The annual cost of this membership is $ 20.00. The National Gunsmiths Association, LLC has been created to provide armorers and gunsmiths with an national association that can provide fellowship, certification and a national registry. Full details can be found at http://www.nationalgunsmithsassociation.com.

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Exactly how many other "mail order" degrees and certificates would you like for me to acquire for you Jack????

Want your "Master's"?

If you can still spell your name correctly, (& have the cash), I can most likely get you a "Doctorate".

Since you appear to know nothing about nothing, one could therefore make excuse for you in falling for the BS of someone who for whatever reason decided that life was about playing with guns and thereafter acquiring the "slang" which would convince no-nothings that they in fact knew something.

So, excuse me while I go puke!

Take your "Six Groove Bullet" BS to someone who actually has the qualifications to evaluate this myth Jack! You will find that not unlike the "Bottom Mount Sling Swivel" which you have so long also expoused, that you merely continue to demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about your subject matter, and will fall for whatever "used car" comes along, provided it is painted black and looks like it has something to do with a conspiracy of many.

P.S. Robert Frazier, at last conversation, also frequently enjoyed a good laugh at the extent to which stupidity had consumed the subject of the JFK assassination. You did at least take the time to speak with him about this subject did you not?

Or, do you only deal with those persons who received their qualification by mail-order from Sears & Roebucks, or worse yet, merely made them up for themselves?

http://www.afte.org/AssociationInfo/a_contacts.htm

AFTE Committees and their members can be found below.

Member of the Year

Richard K. Maruoka, Chair

Patrick D. Ball

Garry Lawrence

James R. Looney

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis
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Sorensen, Williams, "Barrel Corrosion and it's Effect on Identification", AFTE Newsletter #13, 1971, pp 34-41. This research was done to examine the effects of corrosion on the areas of firearms that produce toolmarks on fired ammunition, and how long it takes for this corrosion to occur. They concluded that the depth of submersion has an effect on the speed of corrosion, with it occurring more quickly at shallower depths. Salt water had a greater effect on the operating condition of the firearm over fresh water submersion, however, after about two weeks of submersion, it didn't matter. There was no detectible difference in the barrel corrosion, both salt and fresh water were fast, but generally it concluded that 9 day's of submersion caused sufficient corrosion to preclude identification with pre-submersion exhibits

Merely one of many articles written which explain how corrosion within the rifle barrel can alter the "toolmark"/rifling markings imparted to a fired bullet.

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For those who are somewhat like myself and now need glasses to even read.

This is JFK Exhibit F-102 from the HSCA Investigation, as received in it's full 8" x 10" size.

Along with all of the previously mentioned anomalies, in the top left photo one will see and obvious "scratch" mark which directly parallels the rifling marking directly below it, yet is in fact a single and narrow groove into the copper jacket.

Such singular and narrow grooves cut into the copper jacket and which exactly parallel the rifling markings are frequently created by a single grain of sand, or even a single piece of metal which has fallen down within the "groove" of the rifling of the barrel.

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One could be curious and ask exactly what may have lead FBI Agent Robert Frazier to initially think that one of the three fragments of CE840 (Q14) may have (poss Q1) possibly have come from Q1, which happens to be CE399.

Of course, if one were that curious, they would most probably want to know exactly why this 0.9 grain fragment disappeared, as well as exactly who it was that made it disappear.

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For those who are somewhat like myself and now need glasses to even read.

This is JFK Exhibit F-102 from the HSCA Investigation, as received in it's full 8" x 10" size.

Along with all of the previously mentioned anomalies, in the top left photo one will see and obvious "scratch" mark which directly parallels the rifling marking directly below it, yet is in fact a single and narrow groove into the copper jacket.

Such singular and narrow grooves cut into the copper jacket and which exactly parallel the rifling markings are frequently created by a single grain of sand, or even a single piece of metal which has fallen down within the "groove" of the rifling of the barrel.

Back to the missing portion of the copper jacket at the base of the bullet.

When this was first observed in 1989, it immediately stood out that a portion of this bullet had been altered, yet absolutely no one had ever made mention of it.

As stated, back at that time, no photo was in the public domain which showed the base of the bullet at the time that it was turned over to the National Archives, and thus, even after discussions with FBI Agent Frazier and FBI Agent Gallagher, it was a dead end, other than their word that there was nothing that abnormal about the base of the bullet.

With this, I suspected that perhaps the base of the copper jacket had been removed at some time after Frazier had examined the bullet, and perhaps this was done in order to attempt to convince someone that sufficient lead was exposed at the rear of the bullet to account for the lead which sheared off and was left in the right wrist of JBC.

This suspicion was somewhat re-inforced by some of he WC Testimony.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/..._Vol4_0060b.htm

When Dr.'s from parkland were allowed to examine the bullet yet:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/finck.htm

Mr. McCLOY - From your examination of Exhibit 399, can you identify the caliber of that bullet?

Colonel FINCK - The caliber of this bullet, if I could measure it, but I cannot touch it.

The CHAIRMAN - We can.

Mr. McCLOY - Are you familiar with the Mannlicher 6.5 rifle?

Colonel FINCK - I am familiar with the caliber 6.5. I can draw the calibers for you on the blackboard.

Mr. McCLOY - What is the initial velocity of a 6.5 mm. bullet of that character?

Colonel FINCK - Of the order of 2,000 feet per second.

Those such as Colonel Finck, who was quite familiar with the 6.5mm caliber, were told that they could not touch the bullet.

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Nevertheless, one could only, at the time, speculate as to exactly why that portion of the copper jacket which normally covers a portion of the lead core at the base of the bullet (CE399) had actually been removed.

And, since the HSCA photo's were taken prior to any physical examinations of the bullet, this meant that, if one believed Frazier and Gallagher, that the alteration to the base of the bullet took place at some time after the FBI was through with their examination of the bullet, and that period of time in 1978 when the HSCA re-opened the investigation into the death of JFK.

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In 1994, after some four years of searching for answers to the missing copper jacket at the base of CE399, it was resolved that there most probably would never be a final answer.

This was of course quite frustrating, considering it is known that the FBI takes photographs of ALL evidence prior to any processing of that evidence, as well as photographs being taken after any change has been created as a result of laboratory examination.

Then, came the JFK Records Act which resulted in the initial photographs of CE399 as it was turned over to the National Archives, and which clearly demonstrated that when this bullet was placed into the National Archives, that the portion of the copper jacket which normally covers a portion of the lead core at the base of the bullet, was fully present when CE 399 was given to the National Archives.

Thus, this also helped establish the credibility of Frazier and Gallagher in what they had told me, as well as giving that information which ultimately demonstrated the exact reasons why this portion of the bullet had to be made to disappear.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/index.html

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/33-3321a.gif

One of the first noteworthy items regarding the copper jacket at the base of CE399 was the impact damage which can be observed in the bottom right (as looking at the bullet base) of the bullet.

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