Curtis LeMay and John F. Kennedy

[Tim Gratz]

Myra, how DARE you impugn the reputation of a man who served his country for so many years when you have not one iota of evidence to indict him? Have you no sense of decency?

So what if LeMay wanted to "nuke" Hanoi. Harry S Truman nuked two Japanese cities and look at how many American lives were saved. Was LeMay's advocacy any different than what Harry Truman did, each motivated by a desire to save American lives?

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LeMay received recognition for his work from thirteen countries, receiving twenty-two medals and decorations. (Pictures of the medals can be seen on Wikipedia section on LerMay.)

Command pilot

Distinguished Service Cross

Distinguished Service Medal plus 2 oak leaf clusters

Silver Star

Distinguished Flying Cross plus 2 oak leaf clusters

Air Medal plus 3 oak leaf clusters

Presidential Unit Citation plus oak leaf cluster

American Defense Service Medal

American Campaign Medal

European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal plus three bronze campaign stars

Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal

World War II Victory Medal

Occupation Ribbon with Airlift Device

Medal for Humane Action

National Defense Service Medal

Air Force Longevity Service Award, 6 oak leaf clusters

Distinguished Flying Cross (United Kingdom)

Croix de Guerre with Palm (France)

Croix de Guerre, with Palm (Belgium)

Argentina – Order of Aeronautical Merit — Grades of Grand Official and Grand Cross

Brazil – Order of the Southern Cross and Order of Aeronautical Merit

Chile – Order of Merit and Medalla Militar de Primera Clase

Ecuador – Order of Aeronautical Merit (Knight Commander)

Japan – The First Class of the Order of the Rising Sun (Presented Dec. 7 1964) for his contribution to the reestablishment of the Air Force and Air Defence. The award was met with significant domestic protest due to his role in WWII. Hirohito, who led Japan when it waged war against the US, did not personally present this award.

Morocco – Oissam Alaouite

Sweden – Commander of the Grand Cross of the Royal Order of the Sword

Uruguay – Aviador Militar Honoris Causa (Piloto Commandante)

U.S.S.R – Order of Patriotic War — 1st Degree

[Alan Kent]

Alan,

You wrote:

Johnny Rosselli, just prior to his demise, confided to his long-time attorney Tom Wadden that he had been involved in planning the assassination of President Kennedy

I have read lots about Rosselli but have not seen this before. Do you have a source for it?

Interesting that O'Connor states that LeMay was present at the autopsy.

Thanks!

Tim,

Wadden spoke of Rosselli's confession to his former law partner (and once head of the Justice Dept. Organized Crime Division) William Hundley. Hundley recounted this in an interview with Richard Mahoney ("Sons and Brothers" pp. 229, 408). We obviously would like to see more detail on the matter (Mahoney apparently was not terribly responsive to a request...), but the involvement of "Colonel" Rosselli is certainly not shocking, given his close proximity to Harvey, Morales, Martino, etc. Not to mention his subsequent disinformation role...

[Tim Gratz]

Thanks for your quick reply, Alan. I think you refreshed my memory.

Anyone know if either Wadden or Hundley is still alive and could be interviewed?

I thought Rosselli was probably involved when I read in his biography that he had placed Judith Campbell in an out-of-the way Hollywood or Beverly Hills hotel shortly before the assassination.

And there are, of course, the reports that he met Jack Ruby (once? twice?) in Miami shortly before the assassination.

I can see that Rosselli could have involved Morales in the assassination. And even if Morales was not involved, the involvement of Rosselli alone could have been enough to cause a "cover-up". What would have happened if it was discovered that the man the CIA had engaged to kill Fidel had ended up killing Kennedy?

***********************************************************

Re possible Rossselli involvement, how ironic it is that Rosselli was once a business partner (in the early fifties) with the Hollywood producer who in the early sixties produced "PT 109", filmed here in the Florida Keys. (I spent about three years working at a resort on the island where PT109 was filmed. Another small irony: the company that now owns that island also owns the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas.)

Edited August 14, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[William Kelly]

Thanks for your quick reply, Alan. I think you refreshed my memory.

Anyone know if either Wadden or Hundley is still alive and could be interviewed?

I thought Rosselli was probably involved when I read in his biography that he had placed Judith Campbell in an out-of-the way Hollywood or Beverly Hills hotel shortly before the assassination.

And there are, of course, the reports that he met Jack Ruby (once? twice?) in Miami shortly before the assassination.

I can see that Rosselli could have involved Morales in the assassination. And even if Morales was not involved, the involvement of Rosselli alone could have been enough to cause a "cover-up". What would have happened if it was discovered that the man the CIA had engaged to kill Fidel had ended up killing Kennedy?

***********************************************************

Re possible Rossselli involvement, how ironic it is that Rosselli was once a business partner (in the early fifties) with the Hollywood producer who in the early sixties produced "PT 109", filmed here in the Florida Keys. (I spent about three years working at a resort on the island where PT109 was filmed. Another small irony: the company that now owns that island also owns the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas.)

Tim,

Do you have a list or know where I can get one of the films Rosselli was involved with as a producer?

Are you sure Rosselli produced PT109?

I remember looking once and came up with a few Dean Martin - Jerry Lewis jokers - which would reflect the Skinny D'Amato/Sam Giancana influence - but I was wondering about some others like "Sergants Three" and "How Hollywood Makes Movies," the Texas State Fair show that Ruby/Meyers were associated with.

To bring this around to subject: I just saw Strategic Air Command - with Jimmy Stewart playing the bomber pilot who can't go to war, which they credit LeMay as inspiration. He also inspired Dr. Strangelove's Gen. Ripper.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, you did not read me quite right. Rosselli had made films in the early fifties with a man named Foy (a famous Hollywood family). It was Foy who produced "PT 109".

I understand Rosselli was not always credited for his involvement in the movies. One could try using Imdb and if nothing comes up under Rosselli punch in Foy's name.

Another irony if Rosselli was indeed involved in the JFK assassination is that, reportedly, he had been a golfing partner with Joe Kennedy when Joe was active in Hollywood. And of course there is also the report that Rosselli hosted a meeting at Felix Young's Restaurant on Feb 29, 1960 to round up "family support" for the JFK campaign. I also understand that within days of that luncheon D'Amato delivered a large contribution to Joe Kennedy.

[Mark Stapleton]

Myra, how DARE you impugn the reputation of a man who served his country for so many years when you have not one iota of evidence to indict him? Have you no sense of decency?

So what if LeMay wanted to "nuke" Hanoi. Harry S Truman nuked two Japanese cities and look at how many American lives were saved. Was LeMay's advocacy any different than what Harry Truman did, each motivated by a desire to save American lives?

***************************************************************************

LeMay received recognition for his work from thirteen countries, receiving twenty-two medals and decorations. (Pictures of the medals can be seen on Wikipedia section on LerMay.)

Command pilot

Distinguished Service Cross

Distinguished Service Medal plus 2 oak leaf clusters

Silver Star

Distinguished Flying Cross plus 2 oak leaf clusters

Air Medal plus 3 oak leaf clusters

Presidential Unit Citation plus oak leaf cluster

American Defense Service Medal

American Campaign Medal

European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal plus three bronze campaign stars

Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal

World War II Victory Medal

Occupation Ribbon with Airlift Device

Medal for Humane Action

National Defense Service Medal

Air Force Longevity Service Award, 6 oak leaf clusters

Distinguished Flying Cross (United Kingdom)

Croix de Guerre with Palm (France)

Croix de Guerre, with Palm (Belgium)

Argentina – Order of Aeronautical Merit — Grades of Grand Official and Grand Cross

Brazil – Order of the Southern Cross and Order of Aeronautical Merit

Chile – Order of Merit and Medalla Militar de Primera Clase

Ecuador – Order of Aeronautical Merit (Knight Commander)

Japan – The First Class of the Order of the Rising Sun (Presented Dec. 7 1964) for his contribution to the reestablishment of the Air Force and Air Defence. The award was met with significant domestic protest due to his role in WWII. Hirohito, who led Japan when it waged war against the US, did not personally present this award.

Morocco – Oissam Alaouite

Sweden – Commander of the Grand Cross of the Royal Order of the Sword

Uruguay – Aviador Militar Honoris Causa (Piloto Commandante)

U.S.S.R – Order of Patriotic War — 1st Degree

Get a grip, Tim.

There's no doubt he was highly decorated but you left out one important fact----by 1963 LeMay was as mad as a meat axe, completely crazy, out of his mind. JFK was sure of this, that's why he disregarded LeMay's loony suggestions regarding nuclear attacks.

[John Geraghty]

"LeMay said if we lost the war that we would have all been prosecuted as war criminals. And I think he's right. He... and I'd say I... were behaving as war criminals. "

Robert S. McNamara

[Tim Gratz]

Sorry, Mark, I beg to differ. There is no way that LeMay was crazy.

At the time the US nuclear arsenal far outnumbered the Soviets. LeMay was right that had we gone into Cuba there is no way the Russians would have done anything about it.

Why even your mentor John Simkin has made that very point.

JFK's negotiations and stalling over what to do gave the Soviets the opportuinity to make all the missiles in Cuba fully functional. To not take them out immediately was indeed a "hell of a gamble."

But JFK's instincts proved right and he was able to make a deal with the Soviets. So in retrospect it was a lot better that JFK followed his course than had we rained nuclear havoc on Cuba with great loss of both Cuban and American lives.

But you need to remember that almost everybody around JFK thought we ought to take the missiles out immediately. LeMay was not crazy. But in the end JFK was right.

[Tim Gratz]

John posted:

LeMay said if we lost the war that we would have all been prosecuted as war criminals. And I think he's right. He... and I'd say I... were behaving as war criminals. "

Robert S. McNamara

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Sorry, John, I do not trust a single word out of that strange man's mouth, not even "the" or "a".

McNamara himself is no doubt a war criminal--or a xxxx. He now says that both he and JFK knew the war in Nam could never be won and yet he urged LBJ to escalate it. If he told the truth about his assessment of the possibility of winning the war in 1963--before the death of JFK, then he is for sure a war criminal responsible for thousands of useless deaths for his promoting the war under LBJ.

So you can attribute that alleged LeMay quote to Robert Strange MacNamara but like I said I do not believe a single word from his mouth.

Do you?

Edited August 14, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Alan Kent]

1.) Lemay was certainly NOT crazy, either in a clinical sense or in the sense that we often use the term. Many of his subordinates and peers in Air Force ranks were far more ideologically hard-core. That judgement is not necessarily a defense of Lemay, as much as it is an indictment of the over-the-top, "if one of us survives, we win" anti-communism that permeated Air Force/Air Force Intelligence circles throughout the cold war.

2.) THIS IS SPECULATION: IF Lemay was involved in any way in the assassination, I suspect that his role might have involved making use of foreknowledge to remove the chance SAC head Thomas Power might respond to the murder with a precipitate nuclear strike. Power (who really WAS about half-crazy) had the authority to do just that in an emergency situation. Lemay's role would have involved the removal of cryptographic code books from the lockers of SAC pilots who would have been in the air at the time of the murder. I haven't gone anywhere with this hypothesis because I haven't had access to SAC pilots who were active at the time. I may get some access this year. More to come...

3.)Yeah, Tim, Lemay did make the remark McNamara quoted. That statement (and much more about the mindset of airpower advocates) can be found in Michael Sherry's superb "The Rise of American Air Power: The Creation of Armageddon."

[Charles Drago]

Alan,

Most interesting deep analysis of LeMay's role.

Does the record tell us anything of the official and personal Power/LeMay relationships pre- and post-assassination?

I continue to argue that the true stories of conspirators' roles, knowledge, and desires are vastly more complex than the Hallmark Hall of Fame scripts we write for them.

Charles

[Norman T. Field]

According to Kruschev's (sp?) memoirs, the USSR backed down on the CMC cuz JFK agreed to remove our missles from Turkey, thus achieving the goal which caused missles to be placed in Cuba to begin with. NOT any Soviet fear of the US armed forces.

Norman,

That's just Tim Gratz, not to be taken tooo seriously. He knows all about the missles in Turkey (and listening posts), but must play the fear factor as if the cold war is ongoing.

The Ruskie Generals had to save face too.

Per your interest in organized crime Chicago style, have you read Michael J. Cain's bio of bro Richard - the Life & Death of R C, Chicago Cop and Mafia Hitman"?

Also re: your interest in Hinkley, have you read the article Hinkley & Co. that I think is posted on this forum under appropriate caterogry?

Bill Kelly

No, I have yet to read that book on Richard Cain, tho I have read others. A very interesting man.

I have read the Hinkley posts. Lone nut my butt.

[Mark Stapleton]

Sorry, Mark, I beg to differ. There is no way that LeMay was crazy.

At the time the US nuclear arsenal far outnumbered the Soviets. LeMay was right that had we gone into Cuba there is no way the Russians would have done anything about it.

Why even your mentor John Simkin has made that very point.

JFK's negotiations and stalling over what to do gave the Soviets the opportuinity to make all the missiles in Cuba fully functional. To not take them out immediately was indeed a "hell of a gamble."

But JFK's instincts proved right and he was able to make a deal with the Soviets. So in retrospect it was a lot better that JFK followed his course than had we rained nuclear havoc on Cuba with great loss of both Cuban and American lives.

But you need to remember that almost everybody around JFK thought we ought to take the missiles out immediately. LeMay was not crazy. But in the end JFK was right.

LeMay's persistent advocacy of the nuclear option made him extremely dangerous. In 1949, as head of the newly formed strategic air command, he formulated a plan to drop America's entire nuclear stockpile on 70 cities over 30 days. He was apparently unable or unwilling to understand the global consequences of such an action, and was still arguing for a nuclear strike during Kennedy's administration. Lucky for us, more rational heads prevailed, although LeMay, cold warrior to the end, regarded Kennedy's resolution of the missile crisis as a defeat of sorts.

I maintain LeMay was unable to adjust to peacetime priorities and couldn't acknowledge the fact that the people elect civilian administrations to act in the nation's interest. He couldn't detach himself from the wartime mindset and as such, was suffering some kind of psychosis.

Maintaining a strong defence force is one thing, but advocating nuclear attacks which would cause millions of deaths is too much. He was mad, bad and dangerous.

[Tim Gratz]

Mark, he thought the Russians would attack us once their arsenal was built up.

He wanted to attack them to cripple their nuclear weapons and delivery systems before that could happen.

In war, innocent civilians get killed. Life is not fair. But LeMay figured it was better to kill even thousands of innocent Russians to prevent their mad masters from killing even one innocent American. Considering the millions of his own population that Stalin killed, LeMay's concern that the Russians might do a first strike was not all that unreasonable. The irony was that the Russians might well have launched a first strike against us for the very same reason LeMay wanted to hit them first--they were concerned that we would first strike them, based on LeMay's rationale. Thus LeMay's reasoning came dangerously close to being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But I can assure you, Mark, that had LeMay's fears come true, and if my home town and Berkeley were the only American cities surviving the Russian attack (why would the Russians destroy Madison when its population was 90% communist already?) why then we would have all been weeping over our lost loved ones, politicians, movie stars, etc. and cursing that we had not listened to LeMay.

And let me reiterate my point once more: the only president to ever use nuclear weapons and destroy hundreds of thousands of innocent lives belonged to the party of JFK, not of Curtis LeMay.

Fear of a nuclear attack by the Russians was taken much more seriously than you realize many years later. At the height of the Cold war many Americans built fall-out shelters in hope that they could protect their families should the Russians launch a surprise first strike.

You were not even born when this was going on and you did not live in the country that would have been attacked by the Soviet missiles. Respectfully, you have neither the personal history nor the knowledge of history to understand what it was like when the Cold War was at its coldest--its hottest?--well, you catch my drift anyway.

But do understand I am not retroactively endorsing LeMay's idea of a first strike. I do however think thousands of American soldiers could have been savedfrom death in Vietnam had either LBJ or RN the "balls" (or the utter lack of moral convictions) that HST had or lacked when he ended WWII. And remember that WWII was an aberration. Usually in the 20th century it was Democrat presidents who started or otherwise got us into wars and Republican presidents who had to get us out of them.

[Alan Kent]

Alan,

Most interesting deep analysis of LeMay's role.

Does the record tell us anything of the official and personal Power/LeMay relationships pre- and post-assassination?

I continue to argue that the true stories of conspirators' roles, knowledge, and desires are vastly more complex than the Hallmark Hall of Fame scripts we write for them.

Charles

Charles,

Power was one of Lemay's proteges; one of the most fearless participants in Lemay's (and it really was largely Lemay's..) project: the terror bombing of Japanese cities from late 1944 through the end of WW2. He was, of course, Lemay's personal choice to take on the command of SAC upon Lemay's rise to power. In a fairly well-known quote from one of Lemay's many oral histories, he described Power as being "something of a sadist," possibly a clue that Lemay knew very well that Power was barely under control.

Beyond that, what we know of their personal relationship is: not nearly enough. This is a particular problem in studying Lemay. We know a great deal about his military and political views, and relatively little about his private life and associations. His most serious biographer (Tom Coffey) wrote up a nice read, but a lot of it was boilerplate.

The bulk of Lemay's personal papers are in the hands of his daughter in California. I was curtly informed by a spokesman for the Lemay Foundation that she "doesn't deal with researchers." Maybe we need Jim Marrs to visit her and join her in a bit of Scotch...