The Gordon Arnold Competition

[Miles Scull]

Did not Bowers say that an officer came up to the guy in the plaid coat following the assassination

No. Bowers dis not say that. Cite your source.

Bowers talking about a police officer approaching one of the two men he testified about ....

Officer Smith talking about a man that he met in the RR yard ...

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL - When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?

Mr. BOWERS - At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly towards the area---at the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area.

Mr. BALL - And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see the car?

Mr. BOWERS - No; at the moment of the shots, I could---I do not think that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last shot.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?

Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.

Mr. BALL - On his motorcycle?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did he come by way of Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS - He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which I did not know.

Mr. BALL - He came up---

Mr. BOWERS - He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know

Mr. BALL - How did he get up?

Mr. BOWERS - He just shot up over the curb and up.

Mr. BALL - He didn't come then by way of Ell, which dead ends there?

Mr. BOWERS - No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL - Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL - When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?

Mr. BOWERS - I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

and didn't that officer (Joe Smith) say that the meeting occurred in the RR yard

What meeting?

Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars,

Smith is NOT Haygood.

And didn't Bowers say that one man was up near the fence watching the motorcade come towards him while the other man was 10 feet or so away ...

Did he? He said what he saw.

Yes - in fact, Bowers said the two men he was talking about were along the fence between he and the mouth of the underpass. Hudson and the men on the steps are nowhere near the LOS Bowers was talking about.

No. Bowers' never said that the two men were "along" the fence or on the north side of the long arm fence or on the west side of the short arm of the fence.

How many people does one see up by the Elm Street side of the fence in any of the assassination photos and films

You mean at the time of the gunshots?........... 3

What kind of a question is this ... what did Bowers say about the men and their positions during the attack ... ???

He said that the two men were down by Hudson.

and how many people on the knoll side of the fence in any of the photos and films who looks to be wearing a plaid coat?

1

Great, Miles ... now we are getting somewhere. Bowers spoke of a man who was 10 to 15 feet away from the other man. That the men were in line with the mouth of the underpass. So please show me the plaid coated man who was at the location that Bowers was talking about??????????

Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL - In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS - They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.

Mr. BALL - You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes; they were there before 'and after.

Mr. BALL - And were they standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people up on this high ground?

Mr. BOWERS - There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a slight distance back.

Mr. BALL - When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?

Mr. BOWERS - At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly towards the area---at the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area.

Mr. BALL - And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see the car?

Mr. BOWERS - No; at the moment of the shots, I could---I do not think that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last shot.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?

Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.

Mr. BALL - On his motorcycle?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did he come by way of Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS - He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which I did not know.

Mr. BALL - He came up---

Mr. BOWERS - He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know

Mr. BALL - How did he get up?

Mr. BOWERS - He just shot up over the curb and up.

Mr. BALL - He didn't come then by way of Ell, which dead ends there?

Mr. BOWERS - No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL - Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL - When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?

Mr. BOWERS - I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

Bowers said the man was still where he had been all along with the cop approached him.

What man? Bowers never said this. Again, you cite no source. Why not substantiate your claim? You CAN do that, can't you?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

See: http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_4.htm

Have you decided to NOT scale GI Joe & his legs as you promised? WHY?

I believe that I posted that I would not repeat the mistake that Duncan made. That instead I would attempt to get an image of Gordon Arnold and use it to scale the Gordon Arnold seen in the Badge Man images.

OK. So, where is the image you are attempting to get? It's been A LONG TIME coming. Is this a way of side stepping Duncan's challenge? A de facto admission of the correctness of Duncan's position that GI Joe is an illusion in Moorman? So you admit this?

Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

Jack.....

B...

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s143/Be...ghttest2J.W.jpg

Thanks Jack & Bernice,

for some reason I was pretty sure you was going to deny that there was a person behind the wall in that Crawley/White photo Jack.

I don't think you ever specifically said there was a person there when you posted that photo on Rich's forum some years ago.

I just took it for granted that my eyes were telling the truth & the text acompanying the photo almost seemed to say the same thing.

Even though the text may of been misleading me a little, I am pleased that what I saw with my eyes has been comfirmed, however........

Note that Nigel on the knoll is approximately the same size as the Arnold figure

Jack, if you are basing this conclusion on something other than looks, then you have to explain what it is because as far as I can see, from looks alone, you are way out sorry.

Nigel is close to three times the size of the Arnold figure as I illustrated before.

Chris can no doubt line them up better than I have if he feels it's worth the effort.

Btw Chris, your last link is not working for me sorry.

Alan

[Miles Scull]

Jack, if you are basing this conclusion on something other than looks, then you have to explain what it is because as far as I can see, from looks alone, you are way out sorry.

Nigel is close to three times the size of the Arnold figure as I illustrated before.

Chris can no doubt line them up better than I have if he feels it's worth the effort.

Btw Chris, your last link is not working for me sorry.

Alan

The difference is huge.

Chris,

Your link is not working for me. Thx.

Miles

Edited August 29, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Alan Healy]

Thought.....FWIW..

Bear with me.......if all the people in the new photos, are twice the size of Arnold now.......Then would it perhaps not help if Chris or whomever,

took Zapruder & Sitzman out of the Moorman photo and transposed them behind the wall area.....to see what their approximate

size would be, they also appear to be small, imo.....and are they not approximately or in the area of the same distance in the Moorman

photo...as he would have been at the wall....I am not sure but could it not be....??

Thanks Bernice!

I just did a straight honest crop with no adjustments placing them on the top step.

They look like a pretty natural size to me, far from small & I have been more than generous with the outline of GIJ here.

The full crop is linked below

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8127/moortransep3.jpg

Recall also, that there has been much work done on that particular area of the knoll due to heavy rains which hit some years back, creating

mud slides with the hills, and which then was all rebuilt, to a higher degree, steps and all etc...parking lot also.....so no new photo, I do not think will ever

give you anywhere near when compared to what was taken back then....unless there is one out there that has not come to light??....

So could you not use the Moorman that you all have....within itself, to come to some conclusion, or there abouts..??

Here is another of peoples heads seen at the fence line, but it also appears to have been taken not too many years ago.

B...... FWIW....

Bernice,

you say it all was rebuilt, are you including the wall in that statement?

I am aware things have changed around that specific area over the years but I never knew the wall, or the steps for that matter, where rebuilt.

If the wall remained untouched then it would serve as benchmark, not just for the people who physically reconstucted the knoll but also for those trying to relicate M5.

Was this rebuilding done after 1988 or before?

I hear what your saying about just using Moorman for more accurate results like Duncan has suggested & your right, we don't need a real picture of Arnie when we have two people at different heights like Sitzy & Zappy.

Maybe someone can place them more accurately for us?

Alan

[Miles Scull]

Just testing this Photobucket link of a comparison composite using the pic Chris uploaded and Moorman to scale. No overlay, just a side by side comparison.

Wall Comparison

Duncan

And another.

Arnold real size comparison with fugure in Moormani

Duncan,

Thx for comparisons.

Question:

Is the yellow oval BM's muzzle flash? Or not?

[Miles Scull]

Just testing this Photobucket link of a comparison composite using the pic Chris uploaded and Moorman to scale. No overlay, just a side by side comparison.

Wall Comparison

Duncan

And another.

Arnold real size comparison with fugure in Moormani

Duncan,

Thx for comparisons.

Question:

Is the yellow oval BM's muzzle flash? Or not?

Or possibly the green oval?

[Miles Scull]

Question:

Is the yellow oval BM's muzzle flash? Or not?

Or possibly the green oval?

That's a million dollar question Miles, and one I don't have the answer to. What's more puzzling to me is why you appear to be the only member who can upload images at the moment...strange indeed.

Duncan

What's more puzzling to me is why you appear to be the only member who can upload images at the moment...strange indeed.

Sabotage? Where's Bill?

As a comic relief:

Here's a little Cops & Badge Man humour:

[Miles Scull]

Question:

Is the yellow oval BM's muzzle flash? Or not?

Or possibly the green oval?

That's a million dollar question Miles, and one I don't have the answer to. What's more puzzling to me is why you appear to be the only member who can upload images at the moment...strange indeed.

Duncan

What's more puzzling to me is why you appear to be the only member who can upload images at the moment...strange indeed.

Sabotage? Where's Bill?

As a comic relief:

Here's a little Cops & Badge Man humour:

Duncan,

Have you noticed that BM fired the one worst possible trajectory out of an infinity of better alternatives?

By shooting before or after, BM avoids the corner of the wall which is the obstruction of highest elevation in his aiming pan.

BM shoots 1 inch directly over this apex, the corner of the wall.

Shooting before or after gives BM a dramatically improved shot.

Doesn't add up, especially for a professional sniper who is determined on success.

Has Bill ever had a whisper on this bomb?

What do you think?

Edited August 29, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

Yes - in fact, Bowers said the two men he was talking about were along the fence between he and the mouth of the underpass. Hudson and the men on the steps are nowhere near the LOS Bowers was talking about.

No. Bowers' never said that the two men were "along" the fence or on the north side of the long arm fence or on the west side of the short arm of the fence.

Miles,

You must be joking me! I didn't want to do this, but you deserve being exposed even further as a troller who just post anything that will disrupt a thread regardless of a different previous position you held to screw with another thread. When Duncan posted on the floating cop torso and the location where Hat Man was mentioned so to challenge where Bowers said the men were - you said nothing any different about Bowers seeing these men on his side of the fence. Then you (MILES) praised Dale Myers site which discusses the two men Bowers spoke about. Myers mentioned that the two men were between the mouth of the underpass and Lee had even went as far as to describe the color of the pants they were wearing. Again, you had no problem with Myers location of the two men. Only now so to xxxxx and disrupt the previous thread you want to take a position that the two men Bowers spoke of was somewhere different than on the north side/RR yard side of the fence. I mean, if they were on the south side of the fence, then how could Bowers describe the color of their pants??? Let's look back here for a minute ....

Bowers describes these two men - Bowers says they are on the high side of the hill as the caravan comes towards them Bowers describes their clothing. (Follow me so far?) Next Bowers says these men were between the tower and the mouth of the underpass.

Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL - In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS - They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

You mean at the time of the gunshots?........... 3

What kind of a question is this ... what did Bowers say about the men and their positions during the attack ... ???

He said that the two men were down by Hudson.

Well if that is your position ... you forgot to mention it when referencing the Dale Myers site, as well as any other time anyone discussed the Hat Man while referencing the two men that Bowers described. You obviously have been playing a game concerning your responses and what ever positions you take at any given moment - regardless if they contradict one another.

xxxxx on, Miles ... xxxxx on!

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Duncan,

Have you noticed that BM fired the one worst possible trajectory out of an infinity of better alternatives?

By shooting before or after, BM avoids the corner of the wall which is the obstruction of highest elevation in his aiming pan.

BM shoots 1 inch directly over this apex, the corner of the wall.

Shooting before or after gives BM a dramatically improved shot.

Doesn't add up, especially for a professional sniper who is determined on success.

Has Bill ever had a whisper on this bomb?

It would seem to me that if one holds the premise that a three shot scenario was to be carried out with multiple guns ... there would have needed to be a simultaneous firing of rifles. The last two shots were described as coming over the top of one another, thus it could be that Badge Man had little choice but to take his shot when he did.

Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Sorry about that previous link.

I hope it didn't cause too much frustration.

Please download before playing, or you will probably experience slow playback.

New link is: http://66.75.7.97

Once again.

35mm(man on stairs) cloned into Moorman for comparison. (4.gif) + other's.

chris

Edited August 29, 2007 by Chris Davidson

[Jack White]

Question:

Is the yellow oval BM's muzzle flash? Or not?

Or possibly the green oval?

That's a million dollar question Miles, and one I don't have the answer to. What's more puzzling to me is why you appear to be the only member who can upload images at the moment...strange indeed.

Duncan

What's more puzzling to me is why you appear to be the only member who can upload images at the moment...strange indeed.

Sabotage? Where's Bill?

As a comic relief:

Here's a little Cops & Badge Man humour:

Duncan,

Have you noticed that BM fired the one worst possible trajectory out of an infinity of better alternatives?

By shooting before or after, BM avoids the corner of the wall which is the obstruction of highest elevation in his aiming pan.

BM shoots 1 inch directly over this apex, the corner of the wall.

Shooting before or after gives BM a dramatically improved shot.

Doesn't add up, especially for a professional sniper who is determined on success.

Has Bill ever had a whisper on this bomb?

What do you think?

The exact role of badgeman is not known.

Why he was where he was is unknown.

According to Tom Wilson, the head shot was about forty feet farther west.

Whether badgeman's shot hit a target is unknown.

I think you should quit making assumptions.

Jack

[Jack White]

Sorry about that previous link.

I hope it didn't cause too much frustration.

Please download before playing, or you will probably experience slow playback.

New link is: http://66.75.7.97

Once again.

35mm(man on stairs) cloned into Moorman for comparison. (4.gif) + other's.

chris

Chris...I should mention that the CRAWLEY PHOTO I POSTED WAS CROPPED TO

SAVE FORUM SPACE. It is not useful to use it to study aspect ratio! Though taken

IN THE MOORMAN CAMERA, it has a much wider field of view and aspect ratio.

If you wish, I can EMAIL you the full image!

Jack

[Miles Scull]

Yes - in fact, Bowers said the two men he was talking about were along the fence between he and the mouth of the underpass. Hudson and the men on the steps are nowhere near the LOS Bowers was talking about.

No. Bowers' never said that the two men were "along" the fence or on the north side of the long arm fence or on the west side of the short arm of the fence.

Miles,

Bowers describes these two men - Bowers says they are on the high side of the hill as the caravan comes towards them Bowers describes their clothing. (Follow me so far?) Next Bowers says these men were between the tower and the mouth of the underpass.

Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL - In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS - They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

Bill Miller

You seem to be trying to say something.

But what?

Maybe, but I don't know for sure, maybe you are trying to figure out where Bowers says he saw the two men.

Here is a snap that gives you options to point to where Bowers says he saw the two men.

Please indicate where you think Bowers says he saw the two men.

Then you will see what you may be trying to say, I hope.

[Miles Scull]

Duncan,

Have you noticed that BM fired the one worst possible trajectory out of an infinity of better alternatives?

By shooting before or after, BM avoids the corner of the wall which is the obstruction of highest elevation in his aiming pan.

BM shoots 1 inch directly over this apex, the corner of the wall.

Shooting before or after gives BM a dramatically improved shot.

Doesn't add up, especially for a professional sniper who is determined on success.

Has Bill ever had a whisper on this bomb?

What do you think?

The exact role of badgeman is not known.

Why he was where he was is unknown.

According to Tom Wilson, the head shot was about forty feet farther west.

Whether badgeman's shot hit a target is unknown.

I think you should quit making assumptions.

Jack

The exact role of badgeman is not known.

So, BM was not necessarily a shooter?

Why he was where he was is unknown.

Right.

According to Tom Wilson, the head shot was about forty feet farther west.

OK.

Whether badgeman's shot hit a target is unknown.

Hold on. So, BM did shoot?

I think you should quit making assumptions.

Not to make any rash or hasty assumptions here, if BM shot, then at what was he shooting, if not at JFK?