A long held Personal Opinion !

[Charles Black]

The following rambling is only a long held personal opinion for which I elicit no response.

I am merely appreciative for the opportunity to express it while knowing that nothing that I shall set forth can I support with fact.

I have almost forever felt that the majority of JFK researchers, as well as the population in general, have no appreciation of the "array of cerebral strength and organization" that characterizes the composition of the worlds leading Intelligence Organizations for at least the past seventy years.

Although the JFK research community is for the most part led by very bright, and by most standards, "highly qualified thinkers and problem solvers", I feel that in "true competitive reality", we are a group of minor leaguers when appraising our adversaries....our true adversaries..... the Intgelligence Organizations.

Popular opinion usually lends itself to the belief that, anything which involves government is necessarily mired in red tape by bungling poorly "qualifieds" who are incompetent to compete in the "real adult world".

Through study, personal contact and observation, I feel that those persons in "action positions" in the worlds foremost Intelligence organizations are as far from that as light is from dark.

These persons were not only recruited because they were believed to be the "best and brightest"

BUT they accepted their positions because they are also some of the most dedicated persons on earth. Can the strength of persons who are both the brightest and most dedicated be reasonably even measured?

How many Insurance Company executives are willing

to "die doing their duty" ?

It is an extraordinary individual who is confident enough in his individual ability, to compete willingly in an arena in which "one mistake or one mispoken word" could end their career usefulness and possibly even their lives.

I feel that the successful 1963 American Coup d' Etat has been successful for nearly half a century already and will probably be so forever, because it is a No Contest between the abilities and resources of the Conspirators when compared to those of the truth seekers ! This, IMO, can be likened to a group of very gifted but non-professional athletes from various sports, taking the field against the World Champion professional football "TEAM" !

Tho by nature I am a pretty fierce competitor, and certainly not a defeatist.....my perception of the above scenario does not bide well.

We who have devoted a significant amount of, at least our available mental resources, to this endeavor, have probably committed THE unforgiveable error. We have underestimated the resources, leadership, and devotion of our adversary. We must keep in mind that the majority of our competition strongly feel that they are

PATRIOTS.....not conspirators ! I feel that we have been "outclassed" by an elite group whose primary reason for their professional existence is...MISDIRECTION.

It is my deeply and long held opinion, that IF the truth is ever disclosed, it will be found to have been lying in an obvious area....but an area very strongly opined that it is an area into which only fools would venture. This after all, IS, Counter Intelligence.

I am speaking of our adversaries of the same caliber as those young Brit codebreakers, who appx. 65 years ago did what the most elite German Scientist characterized as humanly impossible. They broke the Enigma Code...and in a nearly incredibly short period of time !

This degree of dedication and brilliance has not disappeared. Our adversaries are at least as clever and dedicated. They after all have pulled off an amazing accomplishment. Perhaps their best in more recent history. Although we can imagine what must have been involved in the fore mentioned code breaking......this "current" group of Intelligence specialists have been able to convince "millions" of bright and honest persons, that the inteligence and resources did not exist to successfully alter a strip of 8mm film....even with the availability of all of the physical resources and brainpower in the entire world.

My opinion only....But...if you can be persuaded that this is true....they have already won !

As I initially stated, I speak probably only for my one person....but I speak it with an inner belief that.... It is impossible for a cognizant person to give serious thought to this subject of "impossible film alteration" and believe it to be true.....Particularly if he or she expects to advance one step further in their "research" !

Is this 8mm film strip more confounding than Rocket Science? Nuclear Weapons ? Cloning ?

Artificial hearts? Organ transplants? Space travel?

The idea itself that "Something CAN'T under any circumstance be done"... absolutely confounds me...as it should most of you !

It may even be beyond "wake up time" !

Charles Black

Edited August 20, 2007 by Charles Black

[Tim Gratz]

Charles, respectfully, your premise is as about wrong as wrong can be. See, e.g. "Legacy of Ashes", written by the NY Times' intelligence writer. CIA cannot even distinguish between an ambassador talking to her dog and engaging in love-making with her barking secretary!

And see the recently declassified Inspector General's Report:

WASHINGTON - The CIA's top leaders failed to use their available powers, never developed a comprehensive plan to stop al-Qaida and missed crucial opportunities to thwart two hijackers in the run-up to Sept. 11, the agency's own watchdog concluded in a bruising report released Tuesday.

The word "intelligence" should be removed by law from the CIA.

The CIA joined partners with three mafia chieftans and it could not kill Castro. Why? It was not smart enough to figure out that one of the three was working as an agent for Castro and even a paymaster for Castro's agents in the U.S.

I think the Cuban government has now documented over fifty unsuccessful CIA attempts to kill Castro.

[Peter McGuire]

Charles, respectfully, your premise is as about wrong as wrong can be. See, e.g. "Legacy of Ashes", written by the NY Times' intelligence writer. CIA cannot even distinguish between an ambassador talking to her dog and engaging in love-making with her barking secretary!

And see the recently declassified Inspector General's Report:

WASHINGTON - The CIA's top leaders failed to use their available powers, never developed a comprehensive plan to stop al-Qaida and missed crucial opportunities to thwart two hijackers in the run-up to Sept. 11, the agency's own watchdog concluded in a bruising report released Tuesday.

The word "intelligence" should be removed by law from the CIA.

The CIA joined partners with three mafia chieftans and it could not kill Castro. Why? It was not smart enough to figure out that one of the three was working as an agent for Castro and even a paymaster for Castro's agents in the U.S.

I think the Cuban government has now documented over fifty unsuccessful CIA attempts to kill Castro.

No Tim. I think you and your "high IQ" and this post supports Charles case.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[Tim Gratz]

So Peter please cite me to something the CIA has gotten right in the last forty years. Your sentence says nothing.

George Tenet: "Weapons of mass destruction? A slam dunk."

I suppose you liked the CIA's efforts to develop chemicals to make Castro's beard fall off. Or was it the exploding seashell you found so masterful?

[Peter McGuire]

So Peter please cite me to something the CIA has gotten right in the last forty years. Your sentence says nothing.

George Tenet: "Weapons of mass destruction? A slam dunk."

I suppose you liked the CIA's efforts to develop chemicals to make Castro's beard fall off. Or was it the exploding seashell you found so masterful?

Well. If you could give me 44 years I could come up with something!

And Tim. I want to know where you stand.

Was the Kennedy assassination an "inside job" ?

Or, did someone get in some lucky shots and manage to kill the President. It would have been pretty hard to accomplish what they did had the Secret Service been doing their job that day. A shot passing over Kennedy and hitting Connely would have been nothing compared to what would have happened had the situation ( the plaza ) not been controlled. Mrs. Kennedy, for example was right next to her husband's head at the time of the fatal shot. Now that takes accurate shooting to not hit her and I believe that was an order, that is not to harm Mrs. Kennedy in any way. And with the limousine at a virtual halt, that was not very hard to accomplish with a weapon with a scope shooting from the front.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[Tim Gratz]

Peter, I see little evidence (if any) that the assassination was an "inside" job. Of course that may depend upon what you mean by "inside job".

Is it possible there were "rogue" CIA agents involved? That is certainly possible but the statements attributed to David Morales could be nothing more than braggadocia to taunt his friends who were JFK admirers. As I have said in a different thread, if there could be a new investigation I would certainly want Carl Jenkins interrogated about the statements attributed to him by Gene Wheaton. And then we have the Hunt "confession" but I tend to discount that for many, many reasons.

I cannot accept a "massive" inside job orchestrated by "high level" government employees because I think the conspirators would have attempted to recruit at least one moral person who would have objected to the plot, even if the person opposed JFK's policies. Moreover, had there been "high level" government involvement someone would have talked "after the fact". No "talk" has indicated high level government involvement other than the Hunt "confession". I find Hunt's "confession" absurd on its face. There is no way Cord Meyer would have directly recruited a low level operative like Frank Sturgis, who he probably did not even know.

There is no medical evidence for a frontal shot and even Dr. Wecht confirms that.

I tend to doubt that the shots that hit JFK from the rear came from the TSBD. I definitely believe Connally was hit by a shooter other than the shooter shooting at the President.

IMO the cover-up could have been motivated by CIA concern that the assassination was the work of one or more of the mafia leaders who I suppose could be classified as CIA "contact agents". Had there been a determination that JFK was killed by one or more of the mafia agents "contracted" by the CIA to kill Castro, I think the CIA would have been history.

It is of course not true that no assassination attempt could have worked if the Secret Service had been doing its job. I think DP would be a "turkey shoot" from several buildings for a highly trained sniper. Don't take my word for it. JFK said so himself, that the SS could not protect him from a sniper shooting at him from a building.

Again, if you have evidence of any CIA "successes" in the last forty-four years?

[Charles Black]

Tim

I, as well as anyone who has an inkling of inteligence operations, find your post absurd !

Of course "supposed" intel "foul ups" are brought to the fore in the same stategy that their accomplishments are never "heard of". How would any intel operation function in any other manner?

Intelligence officers do not receive medals nor are they given ticker tape parades. The most important intelligence successes have and "will never" be brought to light.

Often these organizations are "programmed" to take blame as a part of "Plausible Deniability" on the part of the political administration and to "feign" ignorance and incompetence.

As I have often stated, the competency and terrific accomplishments of these elements are better served by persons like yourself being so easily persuaded of the contrary.

However, I, "me personally", think that your statements are not out of "the ignorance which you so often attempt to display".....but are programmed misdirection. This is personal opinion only Tim. If I had factual proof, I would have submitted it long ago ! I, for your own sake, hope that you are brighter than believing that we, the recipients of your attempted misdirection, do not recognize their very obvious transparency ! IMO, you are achieving no more success than on your "first time around" !

I further cannot understand, that wihout an agenda, why would anyone devote the time which you do to this forum. Your "abormally" large number of "thread introductions" should make many wonder as to your purpose. It is as if you are attempting to CONTROL the subject matter which is being discussed.

To put it quite plainly...I QUESTION YOUR MOTIVES!

Charles Black

[Peter McGuire]

There is no medical evidence for a frontal shot and even Dr. Wecht confirms that.

Let's start with Dr. Wecht. I talked to him over the phone a couple of years ago around the time the charges were filed against him. He reiterated what he has always said: That the President was hit simultaneously with shots from in front and behind. Has Dr. Wecht changed his long term stance in light of these charges?

What I would like you to do is enlighten us as to how you could make this statement.

It doesn't matter anyway , he wasn't at Parkland on November 22, 1963. We have the Parkland Hospital doctors coming out with the truth and the Zapruder fillm and numerous eyewitness, including the Newmans. Clearly, trying to use this statement from Dr. Wecht shows your argument is weak , just as weak as the Secret Service defense.

What they DIDN'T do when the shots rang out is perfectly clear to most people. And it is the smoking gun in this case that will not go away. Why didn't they move, Tim, when the shots rang out?

This isn't rocket science Tim. And I am happy for you and your high IQ. But as you know, there are others on this forum who are pretty smart too.

This is about critical thinking and the ability to accept the truth, no matter how awful it may be.

[Tim Gratz]

Peter wrote:

This isn't rocket science Tim. And I am happy for you and your high IQ. But as you know, there are others on this forum who are pretty smart too.

Peter, I certainly accept and acknowledge that. But intelligent people can, for whatever reason, endorse preposterous stories. Look at Robertson's book arguing that Greer shot Kennedy, with dozens of witnesses looking on!

I think the problem may be lack of common sense.

I mean look at the Ivy League educated people in the CIA who were trying so hard to develop toxins to make Castro's beard fall off, as if that would lead to his downfall. When you read about some of the "hare-brained schemes" being seriously contemplated by the intellects at the CIA you have to believe they had the intelligence of a hare!

The other issue is I think that people either want something to happen, or they want so badly for something to be true, that they will suspend critical thinking.

I refer again to the CIA. They wanted so badly to kill Castro that they joined forces with the Mafia. They either didn't think of the long term consequences of giving the mafia a "get out of jail free card" or they thought the mafia would never figure out who they were. Again, it is not that Bissell was stupid by any means. He just IMO lacked judgment and common sense.

So the problem (in many cases) is not lack of intelligence.

Here I think people will accept even the most preposterous theories because they WANT to believe the theories that fit their political agenda.

See my next post in answer to one of your questions.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Peter wrote:

What they [the Secret Service] DIDN'T do when the shots rang out is perfectly clear to most people. And it is the smoking gun in this case that will not go away. Why didn't they move, Tim, when the shots rang out?

A "smoking gun" normally means proof positive, e.g. the defendant is caught holding a gun over the deceased, and the fatal shot was fired such a short time ago that the gun is still smoking when the defendant is discovered.

This just reinforces my previous post.

The Secret Service may very well have lacked adequate training for what to do in an emergency. By training I mean that they will respond instinctively without having to even think. None of the agents had ever been through even an aborted assassination attempt.

Any psychologist will tell you that in emergencies people often make mistakes. Even trained doctors make medical mistakes when there is an emergency.

So perhaps you misspoke. You cannot seriously believe that lack of IMMEDIATE secret service reaction is proof positive ("the smoking gun") that any Secret Service agent was "in on it" .

You may very well be intelligent, Peter, but if you think a Secret Service agent would be convicted of being a conspirator because of his lack of immediate reaction, why then the only thing I can tell you is that you have suspended your intelligence and your brain is out there where the buses don't run. A prosecutor may be able to get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich but even a prosecutor's grand jury would not indict a secret service agent on that!!

And see my next post also.

[Tim Gratz]

There is of course no evidence of complicity of the Secret Service.

None.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

I know, I know, Greer slowed down the car.

Well how many of you conspiratorialists think the throat shot (perhaps the first shot) came from the front? Probably MOST of you do.

So what if Greer realizes there has been a shot from the front? Would you expect him to continue into the line of fire?

So maybe the sequence is frontal shot to the throat (Greer slows SS 100), followed by rear shot to the back, after which Greer, realizing there is a crossfire, thinks for a couple of seconds about what to do, then decides it is best to floor it to get out of the ambush. But in that short delay the fatal head shot is fired. Also remember that Greer would have HEARD the rear shot only AFTER Kennedy received it--I'm sure I am right about that, keeping in mind the adage that one never hears the shot that kills you.

[Tim Gratz]

Charles wrote:

Tim

I, as well as anyone who has an inkling of inteligence operations, find your post absurd !

Of course "supposed" intel "foul ups" are brought to the fore in the same stategy that their accomplishments are never "heard of". How would any intel operation function in any other manner?

Intelligence officers do not receive medals nor are they given ticker tape parades. The most important intelligence successes have and "will never" be brought to light.

Often these organizations are "programmed" to take blame as a part of "Plausible Deniability" on the part of the political administration and to "feign" ignorance and incompetence.

Charles, again I must say respectfully, but it is your reasoning that is not only absurd but demonstrably absurd.

First, logically, regarding the recently declassified CIA Inspector General's report excorciating the CIA for clumsiness and ineptitude leading up to 9-11, do you think the CIA liked that criticism? That it manuevered it?

The new IG report reminds me of the CIA Inspector General's report on the BOP that also excorciated the leadership of the CIA for the mistakes it made that the report said created or caused the failure of the BOP. Do you recall the CIA was not even familiar with the coral reef that protected the island, just as there is coral reef in Key West? Do you recall that a huge mistake was made because the CIA forgot to factor in a difference in time zones?

During the JM/Wave operation the CIA was using operatives who did not speak Spanish (unbelievable!) and looked down on the Cubans as their puppets.

Let me ask you, sir, if you have read (as I have) the informant's report of the 1962 meeting in the office of the editor of the "Miami News" (a big JFK supporter) where JFK's representative Theodore Racoosin listened to the Cuban exiles tell their frustrations about the idiocies and sometimes even misappropriations by CIA agents who were supposed to be helping them.

I suppose you believe the recently published "Legacy of Ashes" that details the CIA's failures throughout the years is some diabolically clever CIA disinformation campaign? Sorry, the CIA HATES the book and recently blasted it on its web-site.

I accept that you are not some enemy agent financed by America's enemies. Perhaps you should respect that the historical record, and those much more familiar with intelligence operations than I am, or you are, do not hold the CIA in the highest regard (an understatement), and that I have the right to accept that reading.

Tell you what, since there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9-11, would you then state that is due to the high competence of the CIA operating under the Bush presidency and so both the President and the CIA should be praised for their secret successes in the war on terrorism? Is that what you mean by the unheralded successes of the CIA?

Edited August 23, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Peter McGuire]

Although the JFK research community is for the most part led by very bright, and by most standards, "highly qualified thinkers and problem solvers", I feel that in "true competitive reality", we are a group of minor leaguers when appraising our adversaries....our true adversaries..... the Intgelligence Organizations.

Popular opinion usually lends itself to the belief that, anything which involves government is necessarily mired in red tape by bungling poorly "qualifieds" who are incompetent to compete in the "real adult world".

Through study, personal contact and observation, I feel that those persons in "action positions" in the worlds foremost Intelligence organizations are as far from that as light is from dark.

These persons were not only recruited because they were believed to be the "best and brightest"

BUT they accepted their positions because they are also some of the most dedicated persons on earth. Can the strength of persons who are both the brightest and most dedicated be reasonably even measured?

How many Insurance Company executives are willing

to "die doing their duty" ?

It is an extraordinary individual who is confident enough in his individual ability, to compete willingly in an arena in which "one mistake or one mispoken word" could end their career usefulness and possibly even their lives.

I feel that the successful 1963 American Coup d' Etat has been successful for nearly half a century already and will probably be so forever, because it is a No Contest between the abilities and resources of the Conspirators when compared to those of the truth seekers !

We who have devoted a significant amount of, at least our available mental resources, to this endeavor, have probably committed THE unforgiveable error. We have underestimated the resources, leadership, and devotion of our adversary. We must keep in mind that the majority of our competition strongly feel that they are

PATRIOTS.....not conspirators ! I feel that we have been "outclassed" by an elite group whose primary reason for their professional existence is...MISDIRECTION.

This degree of dedication and brilliance has not disappeared. Our adversaries are at least as clever and dedicated. They after all have pulled off an amazing accomplishment. Perhaps their best in more recent history. Although we can imagine what must have been involved in the fore mentioned code breaking......this "current" group of Intelligence specialists have been able to convince "millions" of bright and honest persons, that the inteligence and resources did not exist to successfully alter a strip of 8mm film....even with the availability of all of the physical resources and brainpower in the entire world.

My opinion only....But...if you can be persuaded that this is true....they have already won !

Charles Black

Alright Tim. Let's get back to the purpose of Mr. Black's thread. You have made your point elsewhere on this forum and we are perfectly aware of your ridiculous stance. This thread is about people like you. Smart people who promote implausable theories but tell us we are not acting with common sense or that we are out in left field.

The point is , when you have a losing hand like yours, it takes real talent to keep a straight face and keep on playing. For that I salute you.

Let's take a look at an Amazon review of Posner's Case Closed to get an idea of what I am trying to say:

This book is not only tendentious garbage--it is dangerous as well. All of Posner's deceptive shaping of the evidence depends entirely on the reader not knowing a damn thing about the case.

[He is a good writer--a genius worthy of Sammy Glick and Joseph Goebbels.]

Read carefully, Posner's sources are revealed to be official ones--current or former members of governments, police forces, courts. And all sources that he attacks are citizens--and there are thousands of non-governmental sources in this case who provide a mountain of evidence for conspiracy.

Posner trashes every one he can get his tricky hands on. So pro-conspiracy witnesses are not just mistaken, they are insane, drunkards, abusers, liars, publicity hounds ( unlike himself , of course) . grudge holders, folks with hidden agendas ( again, unlike all those intelligence agents he believes in so devoutly).

Let the reader beware: This is State Propaganda at its most clever and diabolical, and the purpose of the book is to convince the reader that only losers believe in conspiracies, those who have not succeeded in this greatest of all possible societies. Sour Grapes , in other words.

Once again Tim, I have to hand it to you, you sure know what you are doing. And you do it well.

[Charles Black]

Tim

Just to reply quickly and still continue the point that I attempted to make....

Neither you, I, the book publishers nor anyone else can even atempt to pretend to understand what is truly happening within the confines of not only the CIA but any of the "many" intelligence organizations....some of which we would not even recognize by name.

No amount of reading of the works of ANY author will ever change that. To think otherwise proves your gullibility to what they wish perceived!

Many say that "intelligence" had no inkling that the Berlin wall was going to come down. BUT...it came down !

The "cold war" was won (if there is such a thing as a permanent "win" in these matters) as a result of the USSR's response to imagined perceptions followed by unecessary attempted reactions.

This Tim is what intelligence and counter intelligence is all about. It is about winning,

without being observed and acknowledged as a "winner".

American fotball players are "credited" with their teams wins over theoretically superior opponents. Most of these wins are the result of superior "scouting" of the other teams and the correct analyzation of their "Tendencies"....from which a "game plan" is formulated by the coaching staff...."the strategists". But who gets credit for the victory ? This is not a childish comparison of what occurs in real political conflict. It is very similar !

Have you ever thought that there were elements within the U.S. government that did not want Castro to be "in fact killed" ? Despite all that you "have read" ! An alive Castro may have been bait and "fodder" for a much more expansive action against the dreaded "communist menace".

Holding a high security clearance myself during this time period, I personally know that the Bay of Pigs had virtualy no effect on our defcon situation. However, the Cuban Missile Crisis brought us much closer to the Brink than many even today realize. What were the "true desires" of the joint chiefs and their various supporting intelligence sources ?

You talk of Castro's beard falling out and exploding clam shells. This is child's play designed to impress "idiots" with intelligence incompetency.

They have done their jobs quite well if you and others feel that they are a group of bumbling idiots.

These "bumbling idiots" were primarily responsible for a successful Coup d' Etat in the worlds image of THE truly successful "free and democratic" government.

Since you mentioned it...9 / 11 may have been the most important intelligence coup ever !

Successful intelligence operation has nothing to do with the "wishes" of you, I, or the masses.

To think so indicates the height of naivete !

I am condoning "Nothing" that they have done. I am merely "Realizing It ".

Many need to awaken to reality ! Reality is often "very ugly" !

Charles Black

[Pat Speer]

So Peter please cite me to something the CIA has gotten right in the last forty years. Your sentence says nothing.

George Tenet: "Weapons of mass destruction? A slam dunk."

I suppose you liked the CIA's efforts to develop chemicals to make Castro's beard fall off. Or was it the exploding seashell you found so masterful?

Tim, I totally agree with you that the CIA are not by any means the "evil-geniuses" some wish they were.

I feel the need to point out, however, that you totally misrepresent Tenet's statement. As clarified in Tenet's book, Tenet, Bush and Cheney had been discussing a CIA report on WMDs. Bush felt it was not convincing enough and wanted it re-written. (Note: he wanted the argument to be better, not the intelligence to be better.) Anyhow, Tenet said "That's a slam dunk!" meaning that that would not be a problem. Tenet says that when, a year or so later, Cheney started telling the press that Tenet had said the evidence for WMDs was a 'slam dunk" he knew he'd been hung out to dry by Bush and Cheney to hide the FACT that they knew the intelligence for WMDs was far from conclusive, and had used it as a precept to do what they'd already decided to do. This was a major factor in Tenet's decision to leave the agency.