Did Ruby Know Oswald?

[Tim Gratz]

I cannot remember whether he have had a thread addressed specifically about this issue but I think it merits one.

As I mentioned before in a thread to demonstrate that VB had not read all the books listed in his bibliography, the chapter "Searching For Ghosts in Key West" in "The Last Investigation" details Fonzi's week-long effort in Key West to find proof for the claim of the retired manager of the Key West Airport, George Faraldo, that he had seen LHO and Jack Ruby together at the Key West Airport. Mark Howell and I interviewed Faraldo's widow and wrote a story about Faraldo's reported sighting for the Key West Citizen.

Our article is available on the Net.

Another sighting of the two together came from then Texas AG Mattox who reported (in 1990 I believe) that his mother, a waitress, had seen the two dining together in her place of employment.

BK, you reported on the potentially suspicious death of Bill Chesler, who died shortly before he was to be interviewed by the WC. He had reported a possible association between Ruby and Oswald.

Can you fill us in on the Chesler story?

I would like this thread to be used to discuss and evaluate whether LHO and JR knew each other (no, not in the Biblical sense of the term!).

So I first have questions re Mattox. (1) Is he still alive? (2) Does anyone know the name of the restaurant at which his mother worked? (3) When was this sighting her sighting first reported? Was the 1990 report by her son the first public report of it?

And going on, can we discuss other persons who reported seeing the two together, and the credibility of such witnesses?

Edited September 3, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

As noted in the other thread, in "Reclaiming History" VB states that the WC investigated each and every reported sighting of Ruby and Oswald together and was able to discredit them.

This shows that VB did not read Fonzi's book very well since the WC obviously did not investigate the Faraldo Key West story.

I suspect the WC did not investigate the Mattox story either.

Is there information available re which reported sightings the WC DID investigate and WHY it discounted same? I think there is only a broad conclusory broadbrush denial of any LHO-JR association in the WC itself.

[Tim Gratz]

Mrs. Dwight E Bailey told the FBI she knew numerous employees of the Aldophus Hotel who had seem Ruby and Oswald together. She also said her mother had waited on them at the hotel's coffee shop.

FBI File 62-109060-4391 Re # 124-10057-10773

Dated January 9, 1967.

(Info from "Triangle of Death", page 179.)

[James Richards]

Mrs. Dwight E Bailey told the FBI she knew numerous employees of the Aldophus Hotel who had seem Ruby and Oswald together. She also said her mother had waited on them at the hotel's coffee shop.

FBI File 62-109060-4391 Re # 124-10057-10773

Dated January 9, 1967.

(Info from "Triangle of Death", page 179.)

Tim,

The Bailey report doesn't appear to be all that solid.

That aside, there is also Maudie Crane who claimed to have seen Ruby with Oswald in Waco.

Crane reported this to the Waco police who then referred it to the FBI. I have a document somewhere regarding this. I will try to dig it up.

James

[Tim Gratz]

Very glad you posted that, James.

It certainly demonstrates that one should not always accept at face value an assertion made in an assassination book!

Do you know whether the FBI ever interviewed Texas AG Mattox's mother re her son's statement that his mother had waited on Oswald and Ruby together?

[Tim Gratz]

James (and all), several comments:

1. Perhaps Mrs. Dwight Bailey was correct but her parents decided to play the safe route not to get involved? Admittedly that is only speculation ("pure speculation").

2. I assume that with its usual diligence in this case the FBI then located and interviewed people who had worked in the Adolphus coffee shop. LOL.

Perhaps of some importance though: someone should try to determine the restaurant or coffee shop in which Mattox's mother worked as a waitress. Is the former Texas AG Mattox still alive?

[Tim Gratz]

Source: Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":

Garrison says Oswald almost definitely can be placed in the Carousel . . .Check statement of Harvey [sic] Wade (Vol. XXV, CE 2370) . . . Wade says Oswald was sitting with a white male, 30 to 32, stocky, dark, 200 pounds, etc. . . . The Spanish trace continued . . . Wade made his statement on Nov. 26 . . . Said he saw Oswald in club Nov. 10 . . . Furthermore, the mind reading MC, Bill de Mar . . . Also in CE 2370 . . . He says a photographer snapped picture of table, whereupon Ruby grabbed film and tore it up . . .

[Tim Gratz]

From a post by Dixie Dea on the original "Tippitt" thread:

Earl Crater of the Pig and Whistle restaurant said that LHO, Ruby and Tippit had breakfast there on a number of occasions at 7:00 A.M. Crater said that LHO never had more then a cup of coffee.

[Steve Thomas]

Tim,

Source: Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":

Garrison says Oswald almost definitely can be placed in the Carousel . . .Check statement of Harvey [sic] Wade (Vol. XXV, CE 2370) . . . Wade says Oswald was sitting with a white male, 30 to 32, stocky, dark, 200 pounds, etc. . . . The Spanish trace continued . . . Wade made his statement on Nov. 26 . . . Said he saw Oswald in club Nov. 10 . . . Furthermore, the mind reading MC, Bill de Mar . . . Also in CE 2370 . . . He says a photographer snapped picture of table, whereupon Ruby grabbed film and tore it up . . .

You might be interested in reading this:

Oswald and Ruby by Dave Reitzes

Based on "Harvey and Lee" by John Armstrong

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr06.html

Ruby's Ties

From: M. B. Lambert

Date: 2/22/00

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:AvpbH...Cuban&hl=en

According to various witnesses, Ruby had both the Vegas and the Carousel clubs for sale on the open market prior to the assassination. One such witness was Betty Dunegan, who came to the Carousel on what she thought was either a Tuesday or Thursday night in the first two weeks of November. She was there, she said, to negotiate the possible purchase of the Vegas club, which she thought had been put up for sale to remedy Ruby’s outstanding tax debt to the IRS. She also said that while she was there, she saw Lee Harvey Oswald in attendance, wearing a white V-necked sweater.

Another potential buyer was Bertha Cheek, a rising real estate entrepreneur who visited the Carousel, ostensibly with a view to buying that club. She was accompanied during this visit by her younger beau, ‘Bob’ Litchfield. He later recalled, independent of Dunegan, that this visit had also transpired on either a Tuesday or Thursday night in the first two weeks of November. He was more precise in his estimate, for he claimed that a photographer was there on the pertinent night, taking shots of Ruby’s strippers for “a national magazine.” This photographer may have been Eddie Rocco, whose interviews with the Bureau and photographs FBI kept classified for a number of years. Oddly, Litchfield also swore he saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club that night, also wearing a white V-necked sweater.

The similarity in descriptions from the two visiting potential club buyers suggests one of two things: either they saw ‘Oswald’ on different nights, making him a recurring visitor to the club who had only one such sweater to wear out on the town; or, they were present on the same night, seeing the same ‘Oswald’ in the same sweater. In either event, they provided powerful corroboration for each other being present during this time frame, irrespective of whether the person they saw truly was Oswald.

So, is it possible that this is Oswald?

Steve Thomas

[Tim Gratz]

Thanks, Steve. Yes, most interesting indeed. It does not necessarily show a relationship between LHO and JR but it is still helpful.

[Tim Gratz]

Here is a link to Commission Exhibit 2370 referenced in Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol25_0190a.htm

This relates to a statement of a Harvey Wade that he saw LHO in the Carousel Club on November 10, 1963.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Dixie Dea]

Steve.

Your post regarding Bertha Cheek and

Waldron Litchfield claiming to see LHO at the Carousel, isn't as they each testified to for the WC. The write up, seems to be like a composite.

Although they were acquainted...(actually I believe they were more then acquainted) and both did apparently go to see Jack Ruby at the Carousel, they were not together either time.

Litchield said he went there alone, around mid to late Oct. He did later claim to have seen LHO there. However, I don't find him to be very credible.

Bertha Cheek, says she went to see Jack Ruby at the Carousel, in late Nov and took an old School Teacher friend with her by the name of Lula B Davidson. She did not mention seeing LHO there.

Personally though, I believe both Litchfield and Bertha were covering up something and lied about it. The WC also was wanting to further investigate Bertha because they suspected she was involved with Jack Ruby's smuggling operation. But, I can't find whether they actually did imvestigte her or not. However, Litchfied did have a criminal past.

In addition, I have also read a couple of times, that Bertha did actually make a deal to buy the Caousel, only a couple of days before the Assassination....even though she claimed in her testimony that she wasn't interested in Jacks offer to invest in a different Club. She didn't like his investment terms.

Both Waldren and Bertha seemed to try and distance themselves from each other, yet in Jack Ruby's address book and under both of their names, they had the same phone number. Both their testimonies are rather interesting.

I have been trying to research Bertha for a long time, and after awhile, (as in most all cases) hit a brick wall. For those who might not know....Bertha was a Real Estate Investor and also a sister to Earlene Roberts. Earlene was the Housekeeper where LHO was living on Beckley. .

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BERTHA CHEEK

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/cheek.htm

TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/litchfie.htm

Dixie

[Dixie Dea]

From....Deadly Secrets (1992) Warren Hinckle and William Turner

Pg 244-246

Quote:

"Two men stood under the flashing lights of the Carousel Club. The place was tacky enough-the type of place where Dallas attorney Carroll Jarnagin hoped to find a job for one of his clients, an exotic dancer who used the name Robin Hood. Tall and blond Jarnagin looked out of place as he and his out-of-work customer walked in and slid into a booth. A chess champion and student of such prodigious memory that he once scored 100 on a Southern Methodist University chemistry exam involving complicated formulae, Jarnagin would recall his October 4th, 1963, visit to Jack Ruby's club in precise detail.

The day following the assassination of JFK. Jarnagin wrote a letter to J. Edgar Hoover reporting on the alleged meeting between Ruby and Oswald. In the dimly lit club Jarnagin recalls he noticed a rumpled young man in a winbreaker appear in the lighted entrance and ask for Ruby. The attorney believes he recognized him as Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald had arrived from Mexico City the previous night.

Jarnagin overheard the putative Oswald and Ruby talking in a nearby booth. Oswald said he had just gotten in from New Orleans. He needed money. "You'll get the money when the job is done," Ruby said adding that if there was a slip-up "they" would want all their money back or feel double-crossed. The job, Jarnagin remembered, was to shoot Texas Govenor John Connally, who, Ruby said, was not opening up the state to the rackets. "The boys in Chicago have no place to go, no place to really operate," Ruby complained. they've clamped down the lid in Chicago, Cuba is closed."

According to Jarnagin, Oswald suggested that Bobby Kennedy ought to be hit. Ruby said no--the security in Washington was too tight. besides, his brother would stop at nothing to solve his death. It was Connally who had to go. When Oswald argued that killing the govenor would also bring plenty of "heat." Ruby replied, "Not really, they'll think some crackpot or communist did it, and it will be written off as an unsolved crime." (26)

There were other credible reports of an Oswald=Ruby link, including that of a gara=ge owner who said Oswald drove Ruby's car, and an auto repairman, who said Oswald brought Ruby's car in for repairs."

Unquote

Footnote

(26) Authors" interview of Carroll Jarnagin, Dallas, Sept. 21, 1966" Warren Commission Exhibit 2821

_______

Dixie

[James Richards]

I have been trying to research Bertha for a long time, and after awhile, (as in most all cases) hit a brick wall. For those who might not know....Bertha was a Real Estate Investor and also a sister to Earlene Roberts. Earlene was the Housekeeper where LHO was living on Beckley. (Dixie Dea)

Hi Dixie,

If you haven't already done so, may I suggest trying to get in touch with Bertha Cheek's son, John B. Cheek.

Before she married Marvin Lloyd Cheek in 1948, her name was Bertha Bogle Bell. Lloyd was a professional saxaphone player.

A couple of other things, Lula B. Davidson died in her early 60's in 1967.

There was another close associate of Bertha's named John Sheppard who actually gave her away when she married Lloyd. I'm not sure what the relationship with the father, Joseph Bogle was but Sheppard appeared very close with the family.

A John Sheppard from Tyler (where Bertha grew up) was shot and killed in 1975 (there's that year again). I have not been able to find out if it is the same man.

James

[Dixie Dea]

Thanks a bunch for all the Bertha Cheek info, James. I lost some of my Bertha files awhile back, (through carelessness) and am slowly working on them again. I had not heard some of what you mentioned.

I did know that she had been married three times, besides Bogle Bell, Lloyd Cheek and also Harold Clark Sims, in 1961-1962. She may have married again after the Warren Commission. Waldron Litchfiled claimed she offered him a Business Proposal that would have required them to be married and he wasn't willing to go all that far. I don't know what that was sll about. However, I also felt they were both trying to distance themsleves from each other in their testimonies. I also felt they were both lying or covering up about something.

Bertha owned Apartments, on Gaston and on Swiss.Although, the one on Gaston was torn down for a luxury apartment. So, I don't know if she also owned the new one on Gaston or not. Although, I did hear rumors she suddenly, (after the assn.) came into some money and bought a luxury apartment. Both Gaston and Swiss

seems to have been quite a popular location to live, with a lot of the related players in this case. Whhether they lived in her apartment or others on those two streets, I don't know.

I have had a suspicion that Bertha may have owned at least one of the Safe Houses. She did admit she had rented to a couple of Cubans...but claimed it was several years previous, in 1959-1960, but had no other info in that regard. When she saw LHO on TV, she thought she might have rented an apartment to him sometime previous. However, I can't work that into a timeline to believe that was true.

Bertha had managed several Bars and Lounges in the past and was looking for one to invest in. A man named Bill Martin had one that she checked on, but he wanted too much just for an interst in it. So he did tell Jack Ruby about her looking for one. Jack called her and she went to discuss buying the Carousel, with him. Although she also claimed he had another one in mind, but wouldn't tell her where it was...because she might run and grab it out from under him. Evidently though, Jack was wanting to sell the Carousel...and as I mentioned in an above post, several believes she did either buy it or had plans to do so. That hasn't been verified though. But she claimed that whe wasn't agreeable to the terms, so she declined, at lest about the other club.

Is it only a coincidence that he was trying to get rid of the Carousel, because of what might be ahead? Bertha's sister Earlene Roberts died of a heart attack in 1966. I don't recall what year Bertha died though. I was thinking it was a sudden death too.

.

Thanks again!

Dixie