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Did Ruby Know Oswald?


Tim Gratz
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Chris - Mckeown strikes me as an unreliable witness. I read many pages of questioning which you posted a link to, and he is very evasive usually. But his recollection of Lee Oswald is clear enough, though he doesn't remember clearly the name of the Latino with him. My guess is that Mckeown was playing a part in the post assassination conviction of Oswald, similar to the Walker shooting, showing Oswald's gun loving violent tendencies.

Going from memory here, but I think Mckeown said he recognized the guy from Cuba, but the guy didn't know or recognize him.

Yep.

According to Dick Russell, Mckeown said the man's name was Hernandez, and that the man didn't know that McKeown knew him.

-- Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Where did you put the pics of Isidro Borja? I read the links you posted and deleted and noticed that the only reference I could find to Borja claimed he works with DAP.

McKeown was not so definite about 'Hernandez' , a very generic Latin name indeed without a first name.

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Chris - Mckeown strikes me as an unreliable witness.

I agree. He admits lying to the FBI and I believe he continued to lie to the HSCA even after being granted immunity.

What started my thread on McKeown was a slip of the tongue, a mistake he made when he was retelling his story to the HSCA of watching Ruby kill Oswald. It's a subtle mistake that I don't believe the HSCA caught when he said it. He never testified (nor was he asked) if Ruby knew Oswald.

I'll reserve any other comments to that thread not this one.

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Where did you put the pics of Isidro Borja? I read the links you posted and deleted and noticed that the only reference I could find to Borja claimed he works with DAP.

McKeown was not so definite about 'Hernandez' , a very generic Latin name indeed without a first name.

Paul,

But what's interesting is that, IIRC, some other witnesses to the events in New Orleans and / or Dallas in 1963 also thought that Oswald's Mexican-Cuban sidekick was named "Hernandez ," not just Mckeown.

At least Mckeown didn't say "Jose Jimenez."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Jim%C3%A9nez_(character)

-- Tommy :sun

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Guest Rob Caprio

There were quite a few witnesses to the Ruby-Oswald sightings at the Carousel Club. LHO's whereabouts were known at the time though so it couldn't have been him at the club.

John Armstrong says that it was LEE Oswald and not HARVEY Oswald. Another option could be Larry Crafard as he had a strong resemblance to LHO as even the WC showed his photograph to quite a few witnesses. He began staying at the club in early November too.

David Morales is an interesting thought for the man with a scar.

There were quite acfew witnesses to the Ruby-Oswald sightings at the Carousel Club. LHO's whereabouts were known at the time though so it couldn't have been him at the club.

John Armstrong says that it was LEE Oswald and not HARVEY Oswald. Another option could be Larry Crafard as he had a strong resemblance to LHO as even the WC showed his photograph to quite a few witnesses. He began stating at the club in early November too.

David Morales is an interesting thought for the man with a scar.

Edited by Rob Caprio
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On 10/3/2016 at 3:10 PM, Rob Caprio said:
On 10/3/2016 at 3:10 PM, Rob Caprio said:

There were quite a few witnesses to the Ruby-Oswald sightings at the Carousel Club. LHO's whereabouts were known at the time though so it couldn't have been him at the club.

John Armstrong says that it was LEE Oswald and not HARVEY Oswald. Another option could be Larry Crafard as he had a strong resemblance to LHO as even the WC showed his photograph to quite a few witnesses. He began staying at the club in early November too.

David Morales is an interesting thought for the man with a scar.

There were quite acfew witnesses to the Ruby-Oswald sightings at the Carousel Club. LHO's whereabouts were known at the time though so it couldn't have been him at the club.

John Armstrong says that it was LEE Oswald and not HARVEY Oswald. Another option could be Larry Crafard as he had a strong resemblance to LHO as even the WC showed his photograph to quite a few witnesses. He began sta[y]ting at the club in early November too.

David Morales is an interesting thought for the man with a scar. 

Rob,

I brazenly took the opportunity to correct your typo, and to use it as an excuse for shamelessly promoting one of my mostly-neglected theories.

-- Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Chris,

I was thinking about that but decided not to say anything.

In this photo taken several years after the assassination, we see that Morales was capable of growing a mustache. Please also note the thin leather camera strap around his neck. I spotted the same thin, shiny strap barely visible above "Neck Scratcher's" suit collar in teenager Jim Doyle's film, in which "NS" appears to be monitoring Oswald on 8/09/63 in New Orleans. Someone (Jim Doyle?) told Garrison (or his investigator, Billings) that the "Spanish Shepard" monitoring Oswald during that leafleting incident was taking photographs with an expensive-looking camera. That's why I decided to look closely at "Neck Scratcher" to see if I could any indications of a camera in his possession, and I was able to detect that shiny, thin, dark-colored strap resting right above his suit collar (in the Jim Doyle film of 8/09/63.)

JFKmoralesD1.jpg

Please also note Morales' roundish head, and the fact that he liked to wear his hair kinda long.

-- Tommy :sun

The strap seems to appear and disappear in the video. Here it is, go to 3:50 and see the neck scratcher at 3:55.

If you're right, Tommy, I have to wonder if Morales always carried that camera with him.

Sandy,

Although the camera strap is quite narrow, it no longer (?) "appears and disappears" for me in the video.

(Who posted the appears and disappears bit, anyway? You just now, or me a long time ago? I'm too lazy to look up my original post with the video in it.)

The strap is noticeably darker than "Neck Scratcher's" dark grey suit, and is "riding" the very top of his suit's collar. It also displays some spectral highlights, indicting that it's made of polished leather, like the strap of a good quality camera (e.g.,Leica) would be, I suppose.

Once again, go to 3:50 in the video. IMHO, the camera strap is particularly visible at 3:56 - 3:57, where you can see that it begins to cross over the right side of Neck Scratcher's lapel / suit collar and bunch up the back of it . Ya gotta "freeframe" it a few times to see what I'm talkin' about.

-- Tommy :sun

I think you very well may be right Tommy. There does appear to be a strap.

I am the one who said it appears and disappears. On a couple frames it can't be seen. In at least one frame the whole thing is visible. (I mean the part around the back of the neck.) It's possible that it fades in and out due to the video compression algorithm.

Sandy,

That's great.

By the way, did you try freeze-framing it (click-click, click-click, click-click, ....real quickly) between 3:56 - 3:57 so that you could see where the strap starts going over the far right edge of his lapel / suit collar? And the bulge or crease where his suit joins his lapel / collar as a result of that?

If the strap "disappears" at times, I think it's due to it's being only about 1/4" wide and riding on top of his suit and the camera angle involved and his walking and moving his arm.

Do you see the spectral highlights I mentioned?

Do you agree that that narrow strip (the strap) is darker that his suit?

Thanks for the feed back.

-- Tommy :sun

Tommy,

I think I figured out the strap disappearing/reappearing act. (BTW, not the whole strap disappears, just portions of it, particularly on the left.)

The strap is shiny and dark, I assume black. Definitely darker than the jacket. When and where sunlight reflects off of it, it turns a gray color.... almost the same color as the suit. So it merely seems to disappear. I looked closer when part of the strap disappears and actually can barely make out it is still there.

I can't see the spectral highlights (by that, you mean colors?), which could be because we have different models of monitors, or my eyesight may not be a good as yours.

I did do the clickety thing numerous times. Unfortunately my computer responds sluggishly, so it doesn't work that well for me. I can stop it in one-second intervals, not more often than that. Of course, playing it over and over again, the stops occur at different times each time. But it would be better if it would stop immediately when I click.

I can see the jacket bunch up near the lapel, but can't see the cause of that. I'll take your word for that. Also, since I can't stop rapidly, I haven't been able to see the strap move down over the collar. (Wait, are you saying that, or are you saying that you can see the strap HANG down over on the right side of the label? Well, either way, I can't see it. Sorry.)

Oh.... I just discovered that the slow response time was due to my having the video in full frame mode. If I hit Ctrl ++++ instead to zoom in, then the response time remains quick. Unfortunately I couldn't make out any more than what I've already stated.

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Tommy,

I think I figured out the strap disappearing/reappearing act. (BTW, not the whole strap disappears, just portions of it, particularly on the left.)

The strap is shiny and dark, I assume black. Definitely darker than the jacket. When and where sunlight reflects off of it, it turns a gray color.... almost the same color as the suit. So it merely seems to disappear. I looked closer when part of the strap disappears and actually can barely make out it is still there.

[...] -- Sandy Larsen

Sandy,

So, you actually and officially see the camera strap around "Neck Scratcher's" neck.

That's great!

Or do you think maybe it's a strap for his coin purse and bus ID, or .... (lol)

-- Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On September 14, 2007 at 11:56 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Tim,

You might be interested in reading this:

Oswald and Ruby by Dave Reitzes

Based on "Harvey and Lee" by John Armstrong

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr06.html

Ruby's Ties

From: M. B. Lambert

Date: 2/22/00

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:AvpbH...Cuban&hl=en

According to various witnesses, Ruby had both the Vegas and the Carousel clubs for sale on the open market prior to the assassination. One such witness was Betty Dunegan, who came to the Carousel on what she thought was either a Tuesday or Thursday night in the first two weeks of November. She was there, she said, to negotiate the possible purchase of the Vegas club, which she thought had been put up for sale to remedy Ruby’s outstanding tax debt to the IRS. She also said that while she was there, she saw Lee Harvey Oswald in attendance, wearing a white V-necked sweater.

Another potential buyer was Bertha Cheek, a rising real estate entrepreneur who visited the Carousel, ostensibly with a view to buying that club. She was accompanied during this visit by her younger beau, ‘Bob’ Litchfield. He later recalled, independent of Dunegan, that this visit had also transpired on either a Tuesday or Thursday night in the first two weeks of November. He was more precise in his estimate, for he claimed that a photographer was there on the pertinent night, taking shots of Ruby’s strippers for “a national magazine.” This photographer may have been Eddie Rocco, whose interviews with the Bureau and photographs FBI kept classified for a number of years. Oddly, Litchfield also swore he saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club that night, also wearing a white V-necked sweater.

The similarity in descriptions from the two visiting potential club buyers suggests one of two things: either they saw ‘Oswald’ on different nights, making him a recurring visitor to the club who had only one such sweater to wear out on the town; or, they were present on the same night, seeing the same ‘Oswald’ in the same sweater. In either event, they provided powerful corroboration for each other being present during this time frame, irrespective of whether the person they saw truly was Oswald.

So, is it possible that this is Oswald?

post-669-1189796156_thumb.jpg

Steve Thomas

This picture taken in the Carousel club might be Oswald. What about the person to his immediate left? Bill Shelley?

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On 2/1/2017 at 5:17 AM, Ray Mitcham said:

Police were called to Bledsoe's house regarding a scuffle between Alek Hidell (aka Oswald) and J. Rubinstein (AKA Jack Ruby) on the 11th November 1963.

Seems to confirm that Ruby definitely knew Oswald.


What a great document that would be, if it were real. Apparently it's been debunked:

http://dperry1943.com/bledsoe.html

 

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7 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

 

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


What a great document that would be, if it were real. Apparently it's been debunked:

http://dperry1943.com/bledsoe.html

 

That "debunking" was by Dave Perry. Sandy. Have a look at this critique of his report.  https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/deeper-into-dave-perry


Hey Ray, thanks!

I assumed that the debunking by Dave Perry was solid because in his article he informs his readers:

"In the end I found the police report rife with errors and detailed my findings in A CTKA Story "

Naturally, if his findings were reported in a CTKA article, then they must be pretty solid. Right?

After reading your post I decided to check out that CTKA article. Well guess what happens if you click that link? You don't go to a CTKA article... you go to another page on Dave Perry's website where he has written another article... titled "A CTKA Story."

What a friggin  l.i.a.r this man is! I am disgusted by this man.

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up. (I am so angry!)

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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