Assassin's nest cartridge cases

[David Josephs]

So one wonders if the cartridges Fritz picks up to show to Alyea are the same ones in evidence (or were ever there when they arrived at that corner) considering this FBI report from 11/23 stating that somehow 3 spent cartridges by the window does not constitute "physical evidence" along with a paper bag, boxes with potential prints, the movement of boxes AFTER the shots...

from this summary there was NO EVIDENCE AT ALL on the "sixth" floor at least...

[William Kelly]

So one wonders if the cartridges Fritz picks up to show to Alyea are the same ones in evidence (or were ever there when they arrived at that corner) considering this FBI report from 11/23 stating that somehow 3 spent cartridges by the window does not constitute "physical evidence" along with a paper bag, boxes with potential prints, the movement of boxes AFTER the shots...

from this summary there was NO EVIDENCE AT ALL on the "sixth" floor at least...

That's a real interesting document DJ, and must reflect the results of the FBI's search for evidence on the day after the assassination.

A day late and a dollar short.

There was evidence to be found however - Oswald's clipboard, said to have been seen in his hand shortly before noon on the Sixth Floor, was found near the Southwest corner windows about a week after the assassination, and another one of Oswald's jackets was discovered on the window sill of the first floor lunchroom, where Oswald said he was at the time of the shooting.

BK

Edited October 4, 2013 by William Kelly

[William Kelly]

I would like to find an original, clear copy of this memo, if it is available on line.

Jim Hargrove and Phil Hopley helped me find it before.

Thanks,

Does this say what I think it says?

BK

FBI

US Government Memo

Date: 12/2/63

To: Unreadable

From: ? H. Jovens

Subject : ASASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

My memorandum of 11/2263, set out additional information relating to the sale and distribution of the Western manufactured 6.5 mm Manlicher-Carcano ammunition used in the assassination. That memorandum was written in response to Mr. Belmont's instructions that every effort be made to track the ammunition on the possibility that some of it may be traced into Oswald's hands.

The Springfield office has advised that they have obtained through contact at the Wastern Cartridge Corporation, East Alton, Illinois, copies of that Corporation's records relating to the manufacture of this ammunition. Western manufactured four million rounds of this ammunition for the United States Marine Corps during 1954.

Attached is a two-page copy of the records of Western relating to the complete manufacture of this order of assassination was authorized under Government contract of

[unreadable]

The interesting thing about this order is that it is for ammunition which does not fit and cannot be fired in any of the USMC weapons.

This gives rise to the obvious speculation that it is a contract for ammunition placed by the CIA with Western under USMC cover for concealment purpose.

ACTION: This information is being furnished Division 5 and 6 for whatever further investigative activity is deemed warranted.

[/size]

• Mr. Tolson
• Mr. Belmont
• Mr. Mohr
• Mr. DeLoach
• Mr Rosen
• Mrs. Sullivan
• Mr. Thompson

A few items which may (or may not) prove to be ultimately worthwhile.

1. The "contract" is a Department of the Army (DA) reference.

2. The letter references the USMC and it's lack of weapons, without any confirmation that it was in fact the USMC or whoever, that placed the order with Western Cartridge Company for the ammunition.

3. Somewhere within my boxes I have the additional information that the order which directed the manufacture of these bullets, remains a classified document which is not even scheduled to be reviewed for de-classification until the year 2025.

In fact, somewhere, I once had a letter in which US Senator David Boren, Chairman, Senate Intelligence Committee, was informed of this, as well as the problems which this secrecy creates in attempting to correlate the originally designated purchaser & source for these bullets, with LHO and exactly how he would have known that this excellent quality ammunition for the Carcano was available.

Lastly! As those who have been around for some time may recall, (and again posted for those who were not here), manufacture of the 6.5mm Carcano ammo by Westeren Cartridge Company was about as clandestine as "Pink Elephant in the Wal-Mart Parking Lot"!

Each box of ammo contained a slip of paper which clearly identified the manufacturer of the ammo as well as the DA Ordinance Code to which the ammo was manufactured.

Each round of the ammo, clearly has stamped on the base of the cartridge casing "WCC 6.5mm".

Both items of which no doubt have their specific reasonings, and which most certainly have nothing to do with "cover for concealment".

Thanks Tom,

If you can find those records that indicate that these documents are still sealed, we can list them among those items to be brought up during hearings on the JFK Act.

There's no dispute however, that the info in this particular doc is correct, and that the ammo casing found in the sniper's perch of TSBD were ordered by the US government DOD in 1954. Correct?

BK

All that is truly known is that information which is contained within the FBI memo, for whatever it's worth.

Although I got my bullets from an "ammo collecter" who actually worked at WCC when the ammo was produced, and thereafter "pilfered" an original and unopened box of the rounds for his collection, all that he could recall was "early 50's".

There are a variety of dates which run from 1949 :

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ry.html#1939box

WCC Western Cartridge Company East Alton, Illinois, USA US government contractor Early 1949

Winchester Repeating Arms, of the US, manufactured 6.5x52 Carcano under a CIA during the early 50's. The intended use is not clear, but varies from being supplemental production for the Italian Military, use during the Greek civil-war, anti-communist efforts in Albania, etc. These rounds found their way into the surplus market in the early 1960's. The rounds supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy were from this production.

The JFK Commerative Cartridge

The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il. They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid during the Greek civil war. They were commonly avaible on the surplus market during the early 1960's. They were packed in typical american 20 round boxes of white cardboard.

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To the 1954 era, there is absolutely no confirmation as to which episode in history these bullets were actually made/produced for.

Truthfully, about all that one can state with certainty is that this ammo was produced under the standards of a Department of the US Army Ordnance Specification.

In event that they were paid for through the USMC, then this is of course an additional lead.

Whatever, the rounds would not have been produced, as marked and identified, for any "covert" operation.

Rather, it appears that they were intentionally produced and so marked as to indicate a "Red Flag" to someone, in order to fully convince that the US Government was fully backing some third world "Military Force".

Thus, this could run from Greece; Albania;, etc; , all the way to Guatemala, and even early support for Castro.

In that regards, one must correlate into the equation the wide availability of the Carcano Rifle, and exactly when it became massively available onto the maket.

Who authorized the production of these bullets; who paid for the rounds; and how they came to be mostly shipped out of country, only to return via Canada (from what little is reportedly known) would answer many questions relative to the Carcano as well as exactly why LHO chose this weapon above all others which were readily and cheaply available.

BUMP