Clint Hill Dismounts From Limo

[Bill Miller]

Clint Hill's testimony is deceptive.

He makes references to sounds/noises.

You must be joking me, right! Unless someone saw the shooter(s) in the act - sound descriptions as to when they heard a shot(s) is all the witnesses had to go on as far as a time clock on the shooting. Willis, Betzner, Jean Hill, and a whole list of people described the shooting by telling of when they heard the shots. Some witnesses, depending on where they were or how their mind distinguished the difference between motorcycle backfires and shots had obviously been fooled because some of the sounds of gunfire had obviously not registered with them.

DESCRIBES 2ND SOUND, BUT DOES NOT DESCRIBE IT AS THE 313 HEADSHOT. ACCORDING TO Z FILM, HEADSHOT IS RIGHT BEFORE CLINT REACHES THE LIMO. HE DOESN'T SEE JFK'S HEAD EXPLODE.

I know this has been said before, but I think it must often be forgotten until maybe repeated enough times ... Just because a witness says something pertaining to what they recall happening during a state of shock and confusion - that can be shown to be in slight error - it doesn't mean they are being deceptive. If this is the case, then add William Newman to the list for saying JFK's ear was shot off. Add Jackie on there too for saying that she didn't recall getting up out of the car and climbing onto the trunk. For instance Clint Hill said, "I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left." I cannot tell if Hill is saying that as he grabbed hold of the hand hold on the car is when part of JFK's head came off or if that was when he saw what the second shot (in his mind) had done to the president's head.

If one carefully reads what Clint Hill was saying, it seems to me that when he said, " ... the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head" - I read that sentence as Hill talking about the noise he heard in a past tense and that it wasn't until he reached the car and was getting up on it that he saw that part of the president's head had been removed by the bullet.

But getting back to witnesses recall ... If Clint Hill had actually meant that he had grabbed the hand hold on the car when the president's head had exploded and the Zfilm showed him to be off in his recollection by 9/18s of a second or so in his recollection - I say that is still pretty remarkable that he got the timing that close on memory alone.

Bill Miller

Edited September 16, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. HILL-

I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

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Mr. GREER-

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?

Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?

Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?

Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z316.jpg

Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?

Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-greer.htm

After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm

Mr. KELLERMAN-

So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately."

Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm

Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick."

Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment?

Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit."

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Is this truly so difficult to figure out?

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

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NOPE!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313/aka the Second Shot:-------------Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

The Last/final/third shot! The one down directly in front of James Altgens, just as Clint Hill was attempting to climb onto the back of the Presidential Limo.

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Yep! This is truly difficult!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313/aka the Second Shot:-------------Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

The Last/final/third shot! The one down directly in front of James Altgens, just as Clint Hill was attempting to climb onto the back of the Presidential Limo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep! This is truly difficult!

Now, for those who still have yet to figure it out!

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit - at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

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Even "Jethro" can figure that one out!

[Chris Davidson]

Just to add to that time period between 313 and the Altgen's shot.

Mr. HILL-

I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile.

So he jumps off his left leg with his left arm more extended than his right, to mount the limo.

Try it at home.

Use a chair for a step.

Stabilized Clint mounting the limo.

And by coincidence, that's where Muchmore's ends.

While in Nix he runs with his left arm extended out, as he chases the limo.

chris

Edited September 17, 2007 by Chris Davidson

[Bill Miller]

Just to add to that time period between 313 and the Altgen's shot.

Mr. HILL-

I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile.

So he jumps off his left leg with his left arm more extended than his right, to mount the limo.

Try it at home.

Use a chair for a step.

Stabilized Clint mounting the limo.

And by coincidence, that's where Muchmore's ends.

While in Nix he runs with his left arm extended out, as he chases the limo.

chris

I have to smile when someone says how they would have reacted or what they would have done in a particular circumstance as if because something someone was seen doing on film or testified to is not what should have happen in their very unqualified opinion. I once watched someone think a fly was on their neck and they swatted it not once, but five times and each time it stung the dickens out of them because it wasn't a fly, but rather a big bubble bee. One might think they would have figured out what they were dealing with on the first sting, but they evidently didn't. Maybe some of you guys would have worn tennis shoes that day so to be able to better run faster .... I bet someone altered the film and put leather shows on Hill - you think? Some of you guys need to get a life! (grin~)

Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Chris...please post an enlargement of the final frame of your

animation, and give us your best estimate of the length of his

left arm. My guess is that it is more than sixty inches long.

Jack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Just to add to that time period between 313 and the Altgen's shot.

Mr. HILL-

I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile.

So he jumps off his left leg with his left arm more extended than his right, to mount the limo.

Try it at home.

Use a chair for a step.

Stabilized Clint mounting the limo.

And by coincidence, that's where Muchmore's ends.

While in Nix he runs with his left arm extended out, as he chases the limo.

chris

Chris;

First off, I would remind everyone that the WC originally published up to frame# Z334 of the film, as they determined that there was noting of importance past that point.

As I like to state: "Red Flag on Playing Field"!

Anyone who even thinks that they have resolved how the WC went about their subterfuge, should have easily recognized this little "slight"/sleight-of-hand.

And, when one truly evaluates the witness testimony; places James Altgens in his correct position; reviews the works of the US Secret Service in determination of shot impact location; etc; etc;, then, a true researcher should find it quite the accomplishment that the WC, with all of this existing evidence, nevertheless persuaded everyone that Z313 was the last shot fired as well as the fact (that's a joke!) that of the three shots fired, there was in fact a shot that missed.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...eport_0068a.htm

And, the illogic of this being that those who dis-believed the WC, quite apparantly believed this lie, when in fact there existed within the WC's own evidence, that information; testimonies; and evidence necessary to demonstrate that the third shot impact was down directly in front of James Altgens, just as Clint Hill made his first/initial attempt to climb onto the back bumper of the Presidential Limo.

Anyway!

If, and when the true researchers into this subject, take the time to concentrate on that time span interval between impact of the Z313 headshot and the Presidential Limo came directly abreast of James Altgens, then the final issues of the third shot just may fully reveal themselves.

Your work with the "Running/Jumping" man is partially on the correct tract, and I might add that one should go out to the neart quarter mile track, stretch their left arm outwards and hold it in that position, and thereafter see exactly how fast it is that they can run in this position.

Others on another talk show, who quite apparantly never took "Track" in High School, have commented on how good of shape Clint Hill would have been in due to his training, etc; and how easily it would have been for him to catch the Presidential Limo.

Well, one should attempt the "one arm strectched out" run, as well as get someone to time themselves running in this manner, before inserting foot into mouth.

Now that we have the attention, I will add further to this, provided that it continues to reap those knowledge benefits which must be revealed.

Those who have the ability to do so, perhaps will join in and demonstrate for us "Clint Hill Rising" as can be clearly seen in the Nix Film, when Hill made his first attempt to rise up onto the bumper of the Presidential Limo.

Additionally, with the expertise now observed by some members here, there is little doubt that even in the Z-film, we could all be shown how the elevation/top of Clint Hill's head is seen to rise above all others as he made his initial attempt to step onto the back bumper, rise up on to the bumper, and had his foot slip off.

And, in event that one does not think that this too is an important element of the Z-fillm, then one should question exactly why FBI Agent Lyndall Shaneyfelt was asked the questions as to exactly when Clint Hill first placed a hand onto the Limo, as well as when he first got a foot onto the bumper.

This questioning is especially notable since it occurred during the questioning of Shaneyfelt as regards the retouching of the Life Magazine photo of LHO holding the rifle, (& other items) and not during questioning related to the actual Z-film.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0348b.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0355a.htm

One just has to fall in love with the "sneaky/slicky" boy manner in which the WC operated!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm

"I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car."

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0355a.htm

Clint Hill's hand on Limo @ Z343

Clint Hill's foot first on Limo @ Z368

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Personally, I would start here and work backwards!

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

Paying special attention to "sprocket holes" and/or lack thereof!

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z349.jpg

Ultimately working back to at least this point:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z340.jpg

Then, I would also want to look closely at:

Then!

One just may come to understand the importance and significance of the testimony of the "Running/Jumping" man, and the correlation of this testimony with the Nix and the Zapruder film.

[Chris Davidson]

Chris...please post an enlargement of the final frame of your

animation, and give us your best estimate of the length of his

left arm. My guess is that it is more than sixty inches long.

Jack

Jack,

How about a comparison at 7 frames apart.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm

"I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car."

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0355a.htm

Clint Hill's hand on Limo @ Z343

Clint Hill's foot first on Limo @ Z368

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Personally, I would start here and work backwards!

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

Paying special attention to "sprocket holes" and/or lack thereof!

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z349.jpg

Ultimately working back to at least this point:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z340.jpg

Then, I would also want to look closely at:

Then!

One just may come to understand the importance and significance of the testimony of the "Running/Jumping" man, and the correlation of this testimony with the Nix and the Zapruder film.

Thanks Tom,

I'll take a closer look at your many hints.

It sure is amazing that those who claim to have read the WC report numerous times, fail to decipher the info fed to them.

chris

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Clint Hill-

"and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward."

William Greer-

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

Clint Hill-

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have described?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the car made after it started to speed forward- that is, the Presidential car.

Mr. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313/aka the Second Shot:-------------Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

The Last/final/third shot! The one down directly in front of James Altgens, just as Clint Hill was attempting to climb onto the back of the Presidential Limo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep! This is truly difficult!

Now, for those who still have yet to figure it out!

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit - at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

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Even "Jethro" can figure that one out!

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

[Chris Davidson]

Clint Hill's testimony is deceptive.

He makes references to sounds/noises.

You must be joking me, right! Unless someone saw the shooter(s) in the act - sound descriptions as to when they heard a shot(s) is all the witnesses had to go on as far as a time clock on the shooting. Willis, Betzner, Jean Hill, and a whole list of people described the shooting by telling of when they heard the shots. Some witnesses, depending on where they were or how their mind distinguished the difference between motorcycle backfires and shots had obviously been fooled because some of the sounds of gunfire had obviously not registered with them.

DESCRIBES 2ND SOUND, BUT DOES NOT DESCRIBE IT AS THE 313 HEADSHOT. ACCORDING TO Z FILM, HEADSHOT IS RIGHT BEFORE CLINT REACHES THE LIMO. HE DOESN'T SEE JFK'S HEAD EXPLODE.

I know this has been said before, but I think it must often be forgotten until maybe repeated enough times ... Just because a witness says something pertaining to what they recall happening during a state of shock and confusion - that can be shown to be in slight error - it doesn't mean they are being deceptive. If this is the case, then add William Newman to the list for saying JFK's ear was shot off. Add Jackie on there too for saying that she didn't recall getting up out of the car and climbing onto the trunk. For instance Clint Hill said, "I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left." I cannot tell if Hill is saying that as he grabbed hold of the hand hold on the car is when part of JFK's head came off or if that was when he saw what the second shot (in his mind) had done to the president's head.

If one carefully reads what Clint Hill was saying, it seems to me that when he said, " ... the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head" - I read that sentence as Hill talking about the noise he heard in a past tense and that it wasn't until he reached the car and was getting up on it that he saw that part of the president's head had been removed by the bullet.

But getting back to witnesses recall ... If Clint Hill had actually meant that he had grabbed the hand hold on the car when the president's head had exploded and the Zfilm showed him to be off in his recollection by 9/18s of a second or so in his recollection - I say that is still pretty remarkable that he got the timing that close on memory alone.

Bill Miller

Clint Hill is in a state of shock and confusion. NOT

Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you had left it?

Mr. HILL. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped, because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I knew something was wrong.

He's pretty adamant about when/why he leaves the followup car.

Let's rephrase the question and answer.

Clint Hill:

As I was leaving the followup car one of the reasons I jumped is, because I saw the President put his hands to his throat and chest, grab himself and pitch forward to the left.

Who is Clint (along with the cycle cops) looking at when JFK is grabbing his throat?

Maybe the animation will help.

Perhap's his recollection of JFK's hands to his throat, was from a viewing of the Zfilm.

chris

[Bill Miller]

Clint Hill:

As I was leaving the followup car one of the reasons I jumped is, because I saw the President put his hands to his throat and chest, grab himself and pitch forward to the left.

Who is Clint (along with the cycle cops) looking at when JFK is grabbing his throat?

Maybe the animation will help.

Perhap's his recollection of JFK's hands to his throat, was from a viewing of the Zfilm.

chris

Chris,

The frames in the clip demonstrate less than one second in time. But Hill says that he saw JFK with his hands to his throat - pitched forward and leaning to his left. In fact, JFK looked to have his hands up to his neck for several seconds. At the time Jackie puts her hand on JFK's arm and the president leans to his left ... Hill probably did see JFK and was off and running just as he said. I think the clip you used was just about a second or so too early to attribute it to what Hill had said.

Bill