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TIPPIT TIMING REDUX


Tim Gratz
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Forgive me if this specific item has been discussed before. I know there has been extensive discussion here and elsewhere re whether Oswald had sufficient time to walk (or run) from his rooming house to where Officer Tippitt was slain.

According to the WC, LHO left his rooming house at 1:03 p.m.

According to "Live By the Sword" a reconstruction indicated LHO could, by walking briskly, get from his rooming house to the scene of the Tippitt murder in eleven minutes.

That makes it 1:14 p.m.

But according to VB in "Reclaiming History", Tippitt called his dispatcher twice at 1:08 p.m. and VB states those calls must be about Tippitt's observations of LHO.

SO is it possible that LHO could get from his rooming house to Tenth & Patton in only FIVE minutes? Even walking at a VERY BRISK pace?

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I understand that it is the position of Dale Myers that the two calls at 1:08 p.m. were NOT made by Tippitt but in fact came from two different ploice cars.

Myers' position on the calls can be found here:

http://www.jdtippit.com/html/intro_faq.htm

Myers, Russo and Bugliosi - If you believe any of them then you have a warped sense of reality. -BK

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BK Burger:

Even a battery-operated clock whose batteries have died is correct twice per day.

And for your information Myers, Russo and Bugluiosi are right about MANY things.

Your knee-jerk reaction to their names is not a sign, I am afraid, of a keen intellect.

Let's take Bugliosi as a case in point. Unlike Posner, he has reached the conclusion that LHO was indeed at Odio's.

Bugliosi points out several errors in Posner.

Which does not mean of course that VB is correct about many things.

But here we have a situation wherein VB says Tippitt made two calls to the dispatcher and Myers says the calls were not made by Tippitt.

Yet by your reasoning, both are wrong--merely because you don't like their positions on other issues.

Well, you are going to have to explain that one, buddy. One of them has to be right on that issue! Are am I missing some new physical fact of the universe?

Edited by Tim Gratz
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BK Burger:

Even a battery-operated clock whose batteries have died is correct twice per day.

And for your information Myers, Russo and Bugluiosi are right about MANY things.

Your knee-jerk reaction to their names is not a sign, I am afraid, of a keen intellect.

Let's take Bugliosi as a case in point. Unlike Posner, he has reached the conclusion that LHO was indeed at Odio's.

Bugliosi points out several errors in Posner.

Which does not mean of course that VB is correct about many things.

But here we have a situation wherein VB says Tippitt made two calls to the dispatcher and Myers says the calls were not made by Tippitt.

Yet by your reasoning, both are wrong--merely because you don't like their positions on other issues.

Well, you are going to have to explain that one, buddy. One of them has to be right on that issue! Are am I missing some new physical fact of the universe?

Tim,

Indeed, a broken clock is right twice a day, but none of them can be trusted with anything because of who they are and where they come from and what they say.

They're all demonstratably BOGUS.

So if you want to play with them, poker or otherwise, you do so at your own risk,

BK

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  • 2 weeks later...
I understand that it is the position of Dale Myers that the two calls at 1:08 p.m. were NOT made by Tippitt but in fact came from two different ploice cars.

Myers' position on the calls can be found here: http://www.jdtippit.com/html/intro_faq.htm

Myers also notes:

Why was Tippit ordered to patrol Oak Cliff after the president's assassination?
Dallas police dispatcher Murray Jackson, realizing that numerous squads responding to the president's shooting were draining some of areas adjacent to downtown Dallas of patrol officers, ordered Tippit to move out of his district and into central Oak Cliff where he would be in a better position to respond to any emergency in either his assigned district or the Oak Cliff area.

He ignores the fact that another police officer had reported being in Oak Cliff at the same time:

Immediately before 12:45
:

56: 56 clear for 5.

DIS: 56, your location.

56: East Jefferson.

"East Jefferson" is only located in Oak Cliff. Unit 56's assigned patrol territory was located 8-10 miles east of his reported position, near the border with Mesquite (see map below).

Seven transmissions by the dispatcher only 30 seconds later
:
DIS: 87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area.

78: I'm about Kiest and Bonnie View.

87: 87's going north on Marsalis at R. L. Thornton.

DIS: 10-4.

Unit 56 was last heard from at 12:27-12:28, reporting "...traffic, on a '56 Chevrolet. I can't see the license number." The dispatcher tried raising him again, unsuccessfully, about three minutes later. Finally, at 12:32-12:33, dispatcher asks "does anyone know where 56 is?" Unit 56 next calls in from Oak Cliff, less than 30 seconds before Tippit is ordered into the same area where 56 is.

In addition, the officer usually assigned to patrol the central Oak Cliff area, W.D. Mentzel, checked out for lunch at 12:21, the ONLY on-duty DPD officer to have done so during the time JFK's motorcade was in motion. He was at the Luby's Cafeteria on Jefferson Blvd., and did not come back on duty until immediately after Tippit's shooting, when he was sent to investigate an accident.

Tippit was shot at approximately 1:10 or a couple of minutes before, based not only upon the time on Tom Bowley's watch (1:10), but also that Helen Markham was on her way to catch the 1:12 bus on Jefferson into downtown.

This map shows the invalidity of Murray Jackson's long-stated rationale for sending JD Tippit into Oak Cliff:

JD Tippit's patrol district is shown in dark blue; the patrol district where he was killed is in green. All of the patrol districts in yellow responded to the "Signal 19 involving the president" downtown, including officers who were on patrol in the areas surrounding central Oak Cliff, and closer to central Oak Cliff than Tippit's own. Why was Tippit assigned to this area when other officers were closer and available?

What, also, could Myers possibly mean by saying that Tippit "would be in a better position to respond to any emergency in either his assigned district or the Oak Cliff area," when we can see by this map that there were three other patrol districts between Oak Cliff and his assigned district?

The map below shows the route that JD Tippit most likely took into central Oak Cliff from his position near Kiest and Bonnieview. I have driven this route personally several times, and coincidentally enough, it takes eight minutes to travel at a normal rate of speed (about 40 mph), which is likely how Tippit was driving since he was not told to proceed to Oak Cliff at speed (Code 1, 2 or 3).

(That Tippit reported covering this distance in eight minutes shows that he was at Kiest and Bonnieview as he'd said, and NOT at the Gloco station at the base of the Houston Street viaduct, which was only about a minute from 8th and Lancaster, judging by Nelson's covering the distance on Marsalis from R.L. Thornton to the Houston Street viaduct in about two: if Tippit really was at the Gloco, he'd have had to linger somewhere for seven minutes before reporting being at a place that just happens to be eight minutes from where he reported being.)

On this map below, you can also see where R.C. Nelson was positioned when he responded to his own reassignment at Marsalis and R.L. Thornton Expressway, heading north. He next reported, at about 12:48, being at the south end of the Houston Street viaduct, which is at the top of Marsalis. (All of East Jefferson is also shown on this map, going from Beckley east and north into downtown. There is no other "Jefferson" listed on any map of Dallas.)

So, after losing track of unit 56 for a while, and then finding out he's in Oak Cliff on East Jefferson, why did Murray Jackson send Tippit into Oak Cliff, too? To "remain at large for any emergency that might come in," or to be killed and thus divert most of DPD away from Dealey Plaza and nearer to where the patsy was or would be?

Edited by Duke Lane
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The map below shows the route that JD Tippit most likely took into central Oak Cliff from his position near Kiest and Bonnieview. I have driven this route personally several times, and coincidentally enough, it takes eight minutes to travel at a normal rate of speed (about 40 mph), which is likely how Tippit was driving since he was not told to proceed to Oak Cliff at speed (Code 1, 2 or 3).

Duke: I cannot decipher the "legend" attached to the map of Tippit's route into Oak Cliff. Any chance you could post an enlarged version?

[Edit: Sorry, my bad. I just discovered that the "legend" can be enlarged by clicking on the top of the map]

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll
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I understand that it is the position of Dale Myers that the two calls at 1:08 p.m. were NOT made by Tippitt but in fact came from two different ploice cars.

Myers' position on the calls can be found here:

http://www.jdtippit.com/html/intro_faq.htm

Myers, Russo and Bugliosi - If you believe any of them then you have a warped sense of reality. -BK

Bill:

I think it's beyond that. Soon's I saw Bugliosi, I thought here we go again, more disinformation from the resident

artist. Then Russo and MYERS? I am going back to ignoring Tim's posts as he has devolved from pushing the Castro did it nonsence to defending LN positions.

Dawn

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Well, gee, Dawn, if you'd just stop to think about it you would realize that VB's position on JDT making the radio calls at 1:08 p.m. really demolishes the idea that LHO was the shooter.

No way on earth could Oswald walk from 1026 N Beckley to N 10th in FIVE minutes!

I disagree with most of what VB says but in several areas he is more honest than Posner.

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Duke: I cannot decipher the "legend" attached to the map of Tippit's route into Oak Cliff. Any chance you could post an enlarged version?

[Edit: Sorry, my bad. I just discovered that the "legend" can be enlarged by clicking on the top of the map]

Ah, but of course: I've uploaded a larger version in its place anyway.

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In a different thread I defended VB from a claim by Cliff Varnell that he had lied by not discussing the holes in JFK's clothing. I pointed out he had, in his Endnotes. But it is also his book and to a certain extent he can chose what subjects he wants to cover without being accused of deception.

But if he does discuss a topic, then I think he does have an obligation to discuss both sides of the issue. I mean, in the first part of his book he mentions the old story about the country gentleman (whoever) who notes that even the thinnest pancake has two sides.

So here is one place where I think VB can be rightfully charged with being disingenuous.

He mentions that it was a man named Bowley who called the police dispatcher at about 1:16 p.m. about the murder of Tippit.

But you will never see (at least in the book itself-I have not checked the Endnotes) that Bowley says he checked his watch when he arrived at the scene and it was 1:10 p.m.

I think VB had an obligation to his readers to mention that fact!

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In fairness to our friend VB, I understand he does discuss Bowley's timing in his Endnotes.

As I understand it, he says,

1. Well it really doesn't matter what time it was because we know Oswald shot Tippit. So he had to have gotten there some way. But of course how he got there is of great importance because if he was driven that raises the spectre of a conspiracy.

2. WHY would Bowley bother to check his watch when there was a wounded policeman? Here I guess he is implying Bowley is a xxxx.

3. Maybe Bowley's watch was off by four or five minutes.

So, for what it is worth, that is how VB handles Bowley.

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Here is the text of the Bowley affidavit:

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared T.F. Bowley w/m/35 of 1454 Summertime Lane, TE6 5965 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

On Friday November 22, 1963 I picked up my daughter at the R. L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at about 12:55 pm. I then left the school to pick up my wife who was at work at the Telephone Company at Ninth Street and Zangs Street. I was headed north on Marsalis and turned west on 10th Street. I traveled about a block and noticed a Dallas police squad car stopped in the traffic lane headed east on 10th Street. I saw a police officer lying next to the left front wheel. I stopped my car and got out to go to the scene. I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm. Several people were at the scene. When I got there the first thing I did was try to help the officer. He appeared beyond help to me. A man was trying to use the radio in the squad car but stated he didn't know how to operate it. I know how and took the radio from him. I said, "Hello, operator. A police officer has been shot here." The dispatcher asked for the location. I found out the location and told the dispatcher what it was. A few minutes later an ambulance came to the scene. I helped load the officer onto the stretcher and into the ambulance. As we picked the officer up, I noticed his pistol laying on the ground under him. Someone picked the pistol up and laid it on the hood of the squad car. When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car. A man took the pistol out and said, "Let's catch him." He opened the cylinder, and I saw that no rounds in it had been fired. This man then took the pistol with him and got into a cab and drove off. The police arrived and I talked to a police sergeant at the scene I told him I did not witness the shooting and after questioning me, he said it was all right for me to leave. I then went on to the Telephone Company office at Ninth and Zangs.

/s/ T. F. Bowley

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 2 DAY OF December A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

The timing here is of great importance. Duke, would you have an address for the R. L. Thornton School in the Singing Hills district of Dallas? We can use Google Map directions to get a good idea how long it should have taken Bowley to drive there.

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...

Here is the text of the Bowley affidavit:

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared T.F. Bowley w/m/35 of 1454 Summertime Lane, TE6 5965 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

On Friday November 22, 1963 I picked up my daughter at the R. L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at about 12:55 pm. I then left the school to pick up my wife who was at work at the Telephone Company at Ninth Street and Zangs Street. I was headed north on Marsalis and turned west on 10th Street. I traveled about a block and noticed a Dallas police squad car stopped in the traffic lane headed east on 10th Street. I saw a police officer lying next to the left front wheel. I stopped my car and got out to go to the scene. I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm. ...

The timing here is of great importance. Duke, would you have an address for the R. L. Thornton School in the Singing Hills district of Dallas? We can use Google Map directions to get a good idea how long it should have taken Bowley to drive there.

Tim, the timing works; that is, it matches what Tom Bowley said. It doesn't bode well for nailing LHO for the crime.

R.L. Thornton Elementary is located at 6011 Old Ox Rd., Dallas 75241. According to Google maps, it is 7.1 miles and 13 minutes using what it deems to be the best and most direct route, including taking the expressway into Oak Cliff. Google Earth uses the same route, says it is also 7.1 miles, but estimates 15 minutes driving time.

If you have Google maps avoid highways, it goes north on Marsalis - just as Bowley said he did - and gives you a distance of 6.4 miles but a drive time of about 19 minutes. If you move the starting location to the other side of the street (a more likely place for him to be waiting if he had to drive north), it avoids having to make a U-turn, and reduces the distance and time to 6.2 miles and 18 minutes. I don't know where he was exactly when his daughter got out of school; he could've been parked on or across Red Bird Lane, too.

What is not in Bowley's affidavit is that his wife was to have gotten off at 1:00 from the phone company, and they were then going to go on vacation for a week in San Antonio (which also explains the December 2 affidavit date: Tom told me that because he hadn't seen anything actually happen, he was allowed to go pick up his wife on the promise he'd give a statement when he returned. December 2 was the next Monday).

The latter they did; the former didn't happen because the phones went nuts after the assassination, and Mrs B wasn't able to leave on time, and actually not for a few more hours.

She was, however, supposed to have gotten off five minutes after he picked his daughter up, which obviously he couldn't make, but he did his damnest to get there as quickly as possible afterward. I think he said that his daughter was actually supposed to get off earlier than she actually did, too.

This, he says, explains why he was looking at his watch, both at the time his daughter (finally!) got out of school, and when (damn!) he had to stop before reaching his wife's work: he was concerned about keeping her waiting. I asked him specifically about this because I was trying to determine whether he was wearing a Timex or a Rolex, i.e., how accurate it might've been. He told me the reasons why he was looking at his watch; I still don't know what kind it was!

So, between his probably-excessive speed, and his rush to pick up his wife, if those are the times he said he'd been at each place, those are, in fact, the times he was at each place - at least according to his watch - in any case, "about" 15 minutes apart.

In considering the timing, because he could see there was a problem ahead - a cop lying in the road - he decided not to drive all the way up to the site of the shooting (tho' he didn't know that's what it was yet) to spare his daughter from seeing anything untoward (she was only 5-6 years old). He thinks that he stopped just west of the intersection of 10th and Denver, but says he might've been on the other side of Denver. He walked - didn't run - to Patton.

If you allow a couple of minutes or so for him to check Tippit's condition - which he did - and stand by waiting while Donny Benavides fumbled with the microphone before finally giving up, if he made the call at 1:16 "official time," then he arrived at the scene within a couple minutes either way of 1:10, if not at 1:10 exactly, and after Tippit had already been shot and the shooter fled and people had begun gathering.

Even if it was as late as 1:12 when Bowley arrived, it had been a couple of minutes since JDT had been shot, so call that 1:10. If he arrived at 1:10, then the shooting was at roughly 1:08. If Tom had actually gotten there at 1:08, then JD was dead by 1:06.

Whichever one of those is true, the shooting times all correspond with giving Helen Markham enough time to walk another block to Jefferson, cross the street, and catch her 1:12 bus to downtown ... tho' a 1:10 shooting would've been pushing it. (Markham, if I recall correctly, estimated the shooting at about 1:06.)

Hope this helps.

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