MC Mystery Man not a mystery

[Steve Thomas]

In a letter dated 11/22/63 from Ambassador to Mexico, Winfield Scott to J.C. King, Chief WH Division, Scott writes, "Reference is made to our conversation of 22 November in which I requested permission to give the Legal Attache copies of photographs of a certain person who is known to you."

An undated typewritten note at the bottom of the page says, "These photographs were later identified as not being Lee Harvey Oswald."

King knew who this person was and,

Scott knew he knew.

Russ Holmes Work File 104-10414-10245

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=5992

Steve Thomas

[Charles Drago]

Great catch.

[Tim Gratz]

Charles, it was great for Steve to point that out here, but with due respect to Steve, that is not a "great catch." I have been familiar with that statement for years.

Of course, as most know, Gerry Hemming identifies the MC MM as Mario Tauler Sague. He further states that Bill Harvey had recruited Sague for the CIA in Germany in the early 1950s. And there is NO question that Mario Tauler Sague was involved in an attempt to assassinate the bearded leader of that island ninety miles from me, in 1960 if I recall correctly.

Assuming Hemming is correct about Sague and his relationship with Harvey, that certainly explains why King knew who he was. And it is of course likely the CIA was aware of the assassination attempt.

[James Richards]

Richard Helms also knew who this man was.

I am having trouble posting anything at the moment but I have a document which suggests Helms was certainly in the loop regarding the operations involving this guy.

James

[Tim Gratz]

James, cannot wait to see it.

RH was certainly "in the loop" on many, many things. Far more than McCone, one suspects.

Do you currently have an opinion whether MTS was the MC MM?

[Tim Gratz]

Computer duped it! Sorry!

Edited September 25, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[James Richards]

James, cannot wait to see it.

RH was certainly "in the loop" on many, many things. Far more than McCone, one suspects.

Do you currently have an opinion whether MTS was the MC MM?

Tim,

Check your email for the document.

I have heard from others in addition to Hemming that Mario Tauler Sague was indeed the Mexico Oswald. So far, the ID looks reasonably solid.

James

[Tim Gratz]

Most interesting (and important). Thanks, James!

Do you by chance have a current address for Mr. Sague?

[Larry Hancock]

A few background questions on this occur to me that had not before...

"In a letter dated 11/22/63 from Ambassador to Mexico, Winfield Scott to J.C. King, Chief WH Division, Scott writes, "Reference is made to our conversation of 22 November in which I requested permission to give the Legal Attache copies of photographs of a certain person who is known to you."

Unless I'm mistaken this implies that the US Ambassador is giving photos to the FBI and informing the CIA in Washington that he is doing so.

We have generally taken this to be the surveillance photos that should have been of Oswald. But beyond that Mann seems to imply that

he has personal knowledge that King knows the person in question, as does King apparenty. Is that simply because both know the man to be

the public suspect in the assassination of JFK. Is this obscure wording to conceal the fact that Oswald has been in MC and if so why, esepcially

with so much other message traffic going on about that same thing and none of it being so reserved.

Another question is why, on November 22, the US Ambassador be in possession of any photos relating to Lee Oswald or anyone else for that matter? We know

that CIA Mexico City claimed not to even have current file photos of Lee Oswald, requesting them later that day and weekend from HQ. We also

know that CIA was in full possession of all surveillance photos for the preceeding several months...that is documented in a memo from Phillips

to the FBI early in 1964. I find it a little hard to imagine that CIA MC would routinely give copies of surveillance photos to the Ambassador or

actually even that the Ambassador was in the loop on routine CIA activties (their is a long history of US Ambassador's being isolated from the CIA,

part of the deniability thing as well as turf battles). If this were the CIA station chief it might make some sense but the US Ambassador? It would also

be interesting if we knew what time of day this message was sent.

Are we thinking the Ambassador stormed into the CIA chain of command and obtained their surveillance photos to send to the FBI to give back

to the CIA in D.C. Or did the CIA have no way to get the photos to D.C. other than to request that the Ambassador and FBI be involved (maybe the CIA travel budget was running low and they could not afford air fare?) Then again considering how important this was, why not fly down a US military aircraft and get

the photos directly back to DC? Was somebody thinking about covering up the fact that Oswald had been in Mexico?

But the simple question is why does the Ambassador have photos at all, well at least ones of interest to King? And why be coy about who they are if they relate to Oswald and its after the assassination and he is just assisting the CIA in getting them back to the U.S.? For that matter, if it is after the assassination why is he not meeting with or at least copying CIA station chief in M.C. if this is about Oswald? When I first read this I jumped to the conclusion that it was all a matter of the Ambassador helping out the CIA by facilitating the transfer of the photos back to the U.S. but that implies that CIA in Mexico City had them in the first place. After thinking about Steve's post, and pondering how obscure Mann is being with his wording, I'm now thinking that it is not nearly that simple.

However, simple explanations will be happily accepted...

-- Larry

[Steve Thomas]

Daniel,

Steve,

Thomas Mann was US Ambassador to Mexico,

Thank you, you are absolutely right.

Steve Thomas

[John Simkin]

I am having trouble posting anything at the moment but I have a document which suggests Helms was certainly in the loop regarding the operations involving this guy.

You are not the only one. I will get it checked out.

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

Is this obscure wording to conceal the fact that Oswald has been in MC and if so why, esepcially

with so much other message traffic going on about that same thing and none of it being so reserved.

Then again considering how important this was, why not fly down a US military aircraft and get

the photos directly back to DC? Was somebody thinking about covering up the fact that Oswald had been in Mexico?

But the simple question is why does the Ambassador have photos at all, well at least ones of interest to King? After thinking about Steve's post, and pondering how obscure Mann is being with his wording, I'm now thinking that it is not nearly that simple.

As Daniel correctly pointed out, Win Scott was not the Ambassador.

I have wondered about this after running across this memo several months ago.

It is almost as if Win Scott knows that his cable to J.C. King is going to be read by others and that those other people do not know who this individual is. Only King knows, and it is a carefully guarded secret. Last night I got to wondering if this Mystery Man was a double agent; if he was a spy for the Russians, but was also working as a double agent for the Americans, and that was why his identity was such a carefully guarded secret.

Later in the memo, Scott refers to a decision made by Ambassador Mann at 6:00 PM Mexico City time, so this cable has to be after 6:00 PM. He also says that the Naval Attache "is making" a special flight to get the pictures to Dallas, so the memo probably pre-dates the Naval Attache's flight.

He also says that copies of the photos are being sent by pouch which "will" leave Mexico City on the night of 11/22/63 - so the memo precedes when the CIA's pouches left MC probably bound for Washington.

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Duh, I certainly should have caught that - although for some strange reason I keep mentally switching

Mann and Scott...always have.

Now the question for me would be, is this communication so early that they think they are going

to be able to cover up the fact that Oswald was in MC....which would be pretty silly given all the

interagency memos from a month or so earlier.

Which brings me back to two options:

1. The photos being sent up are not of Oswald but of somebody else known to both parties....raising

the question of what that would be a priority at this point in time and implying two separate sets of

photos were going north that evening, Oswald and this guy.

2. He thinks the photos are of Oswald and is going on record that Oswald was well known to both

of them...which very well could be true given all the earlier flap about Oswald in MC and his

Kositikov contact...and once again showing Phillips was a xxxx about Oswald not even being

on their radar screen.

...but then the photos are not of Oswald....or does this mean that real Oswald photos did go up

and later the mystery man was substituted for some reason because their was something about

the Oswald photos that had to be covered up?

Or are there even more options? Larry

[James Richards]

Most interesting (and important). Thanks, James!

Do you by chance have a current address for Mr. Sague?

Tim,

I have no current information regarding Sague.

You are right regarding the assassination attempt on Castro. It was 1960 and Sague and Armando Cubria Ramos were dropped into the Matanzas Province where they were captured almost immediately.

Cubria did some serious time in prison but Sague somehow found his way back to the United States. Circumstances there unknown.

Both men ended up on that list of CIA sponsored assassins that Castro gave George McGovern.

So, with this talk regarding a possible double agent, could Sague have been turned? Food for thought indeed.

James

[Tim Gratz]

That is indeed food for a LOT of thought, James!

Of course I was joking about his address. But if anyone knows where he is, we'd like to interview him!