The Big Con at Dealey Plaza

[Tim Gratz]

Well, Bill, perhaps my mission is to hold your feet to your fire, in other words to politely request proof for thr generalizations you post.

The fact that your generalizations are gospel to a certain set of asassinologists does not, of course, make them right.

What evidence do you have that anyone in the CIA attempted to persuade the WC that Fidel did it?

[Courtney Redd]

What evidence do you have that anyone in the CIA attempted to persuade the WC that Fidel did it?

Sorry to jump in here, but wasn't the whole point of the Mexico City episode to blame Castro for the murder of JFK? 'Cause if Oswald were to get into Cuba and come back and "shoot the President," wouldn't we have a reason to want to get rid of ol' Fidel? The CIA was all over the "Oswald in Mexico City" business, from the supposed photos of Oswald that did or didn't exist, to the guy who was next to Oswald (or "Oswald?") in line for the bus--Mr. Gaudet.

Maybe it wasn't outright finger pointing, but it all still points in the direction of Cuba. And when it's clear that Oswald was impersonated in Cuba (with the CIA in the thick of it), you must ask yourself, Why?

[Tim Gratz]

Let me suggest a developing alternative theory.

There was a plot engineered by the CIA (and perhaps even with approval by RFK) to have a FAILED assassination attempt to be blamed on Cuba and justify a US invasion. But the plot was NOT to kill the President. LHO was part of the plot.

This scenario fits like a glove the premise of "Ultimate Sacrifice" that the US was planning a "palace coup" in Cuba in early December.

Of course, when the fake attempt was hijacked by the "bad guys" the plot to blame Castro collapsed because the people behind it knew what had really happened.

This scenario answers a whole lot of questions about the events in DP.

And Courtney FYI after the assassination the CIA was in fact DEBUNKING some of the stories linking Castro to the assassination as well as shutting off the investigation of other leads pointing in Castro's direction.

[William Kelly]

Well, Bill, perhaps my mission is to hold your feet to your fire, in other words to politely request proof for thr generalizations you post.

The fact that your generalizations are gospel to a certain set of asassinologists does not, of course, make them right.

What evidence do you have that anyone in the CIA attempted to persuade the WC that Fidel did it?

Tim,

This is covered in JFK Assassination 101.

"Series of hoaxes....to blame the assassination on Cuba..."

http://home.comcast.net/~the_puzzle_palace/cubahoax.htm

[Tim Gratz]

Sorry, my friend, what you just posted proves MY point:

The article does refer to a "series of hoaxes" but does NOT attribute them to the CIA, as you imply.

On November 25, 1963 a Nicaraguan intelligence officer sympathetic to the Cuban exiles named Alvarado

Ugarte Gilberto claimed that on September 18, 1963 he saw a Cuban consulate

employee give $6,500 in cash to Oswald to assassinate the President. Because

his story was so elaborate and because it fit in with the prevailing suspicions

in the intelligence community it was widely believed to be true. But under

intense questioning by the CIA, Alvarado's story began to unravel. Oswald

could not have been at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico on the day that he

allegedly received the cash, [Emphasis supplied.]

The CIA was not promoting Alvardo's story, it was debunking it! Just as I said.

And then there is the Pedro Charles' story:

Just as these rumors were beginning to die down, a new hoax appeared which could have been even more

devastating. A series of letters were mailed from Havana, Cuba which suggested that Oswald was working for Cuban

intelligence. The first letter was postmarked November 28, 1963 from Havana, Cuba addressed to Lee Oswald.

It was signed by a "Pedro Charles" and dated November 10, 1963. It appeared to discuss the upcoming assassination.

In addition to personal chit-chat it contained references to Oswald's great markmanship, the job that he was going to do,

the money he had been paid, and how proud the "Chief" would be. U.S. intelligence considered the "Chief" to be a

reference to Fidel Castro. But there were a few tip-offs which indicated the letter was not genuine. The letter was sent

to Lee Oswald c/o "Mail Office", Dallas, Texas. And the FBI and CIA could not find anyone named Pedro Charles in

Cuba. [Again my emphasis.]

So just as with the Alvardo story, the CIA worked hard to discredit the "Pedro Charles" story.

So there we have just two examples. Both prove my generalization and conclusively refute your theory.

It's not "Assassination 101"; it's "Reading 101."

Edited October 5, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[William Kelly]

Sorry, my friend, what you just posted proves MY point:

The article does refer to a "series of hoaxes" but does NOT attribute them to the CIA, as you imply.

On November 25, 1963 a Nicaraguan intelligence officer sympathetic to the Cuban exiles named Alvarado

Ugarte Gilberto claimed that on September 18, 1963 he saw a Cuban consulate

employee give $6,500 in cash to Oswald to assassinate the President. Because

his story was so elaborate and because it fit in with the prevailing suspicions

in the intelligence community it was widely believed to be true. But under

intense questioning by the CIA, Alvarado's story began to unravel. Oswald

could not have been at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico on the day that he

allegedly received the cash, [Emphasis supplied.]

The CIA was not promoting Alvardo's story, it was debunking it! Just as I said.

And then there is the Pedro Charles' story:

Just as these rumors were beginning to die down, a new hoax appeared which could have been even more

devastating. A series of letters were mailed from Havana, Cuba which suggested that Oswald was working for Cuban

intelligence. The first letter was postmarked November 28, 1963 from Havana, Cuba addressed to Lee Oswald.

It was signed by a "Pedro Charles" and dated November 10, 1963. It appeared to discuss the upcoming assassination.

In addition to personal chit-chat it contained references to Oswald's great markmanship, the job that he was going to do,

the money he had been paid, and how proud the "Chief" would be. U.S. intelligence considered the "Chief" to be a

reference to Fidel Castro. But there were a few tip-offs which indicated the letter was not genuine. The letter was sent

to Lee Oswald c/o "Mail Office", Dallas, Texas. And the FBI and CIA could not find anyone named Pedro Charles in

Cuba. [Again my emphasis.]

So just as with the Alvardo story, the CIA worked hard to discredit the "Pedro Charles" story.

So there we have just two examples. Both prove my generalization and conclusively refute your theory.

It's not "Assassination 101"; it's "Reading 101."

Tim,

I thought my theory was that whoever was behind the psyop to blame the assassination on Cuba were also responsible for the Dealey Plaza operation. Now don't be putting theories in my mouth now.

And if you look hard enough at Alvarado you'll find David Atlee Phillips.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, so whether it is backtracking or not, it is now (or always was) your position that it was not the CIA per se behind the assassination? Well, good, at least we are on the same page there!

But you state:

And if you look hard enough at Alvarado you'll find David Atlee Phillips.

Okay. Let's go there, then. Your evidence linking Phillips to Alvarado is?

[William Kelly]

Bill, so whether it is backtracking or not, it is now (or always was) your position that it was not the CIA per se behind the assassination? Well, good, at least we are on the same page there!

But you state:

And if you look hard enough at Alvarado you'll find David Atlee Phillips.

Okay. Let's go there, then. Your evidence linking Phillips to Alvarado is?

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:vbhzo...;cd=3&gl=us

"....It's also pretty clear that Phillips jumped on the "lets tie Oswald to Castro" bandwagon with the whole Alvarado incident (which Phillips undoubtedly knew to be bogus)..."

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:x5gFK...;cd=6&gl=us

Any evidence for linking Phillips to these intelligence-tinged stories has not yet been made public. We have however Phillips' own statements that he was involved in the transmission of both of the key "phase one" allegations promoted in CIA cables, the Kostikov story of October, and the Alvarado story of November 25.

As mentioned above, it would appear that Phillips' claim to have signed off on the Kostikov cable of October 8 is simply not true. Phillips claimed this in sworn testimony, as part of his effort to rationalize the delay of one week in transmitting the intercepted conversation of October 1. (16) Phillips' admitted role in the transmission of the Alvarado story, that Oswald was paid money in the Mexico City Cuban Consulate to kill Kennedy, is however corroborated by the documentary record. Here too there is a difference between Phillips own account and the cables however. In his autobiography Phillips describes the story he heard from Alvarado's lips as a lie easily seen through, indeed as a "transparent operation." (17) In the cables sent after his interviews with Alvarado, however, the tone is quite different. There we hear that "This officer was impressed by Alvarado ... wealth of detail Alvarado gives is striking." (18) One cable described Alvarado as a "quiet, very serious person, who speaks with conviction;" another, the next day, called him "completely cooperative." (19)

Most revealing was the description of Alvarado as a "well-known Nicaraguan Communist underground member," whereas in fact (as he himself revealed later the same day) he was a penetration agent of the right-wing Somoza Government of Nicaragua. (20) (This revelation was quickly confirmed by CIA cables from Managua and Headquarters). (21)

Winston Scott, Ambassador Thomas Mann, and the Mexican DFS

Assuredly Phillips was not alone in backing the Alvarado story at the time. Ambassador Thomas Mann, together with Station Chief Win Scott and FBI Legal Attache Clark Anderson, sent a Flash cable on November 26 suggesting that Silvia Duran should be rearrested in order to corroborate it:......

WANT MORE?

BK

[William Kelly]

Thanks for that, Bill. Very interesting.

Linebarger also spent some time in Cuba during the early 1950's.

Here is a photo of Linebarger below. This one doesn't appear on the Cordwainer Smith website.

James

Peculiar. 'Cordwainer Bird' was the pseudonym selected by Harlan Ellison when he chose to distance himself from the mess that they made of his original concept for his science fiction 'The Starlost.'

THANKS FOR THAT TIDBIT LEE. AND IT SEEMS HE TOOK CORDWAINER BIRD FROM LINEBARGER - SHOES FOR BIRDS - HEA?

ANOTHER MOCKINGBIRD CONNECTION?

LIKE JAMES BOND, ORNITHOLOGIST?

BK

Wiki

In the late 1950s, Ellison wrote a number of erotica stories, such as "God Bless the Ugly Virgin" and "Tramp", which were later reprinted in Los Angeles-based magazines. That was the beginning of his use of the name Cordwainer Bird as a pseudonym. The name was later used in July and August of 1957, in two journals, each of which had accepted two of his stories. In each journal, one story was published under the name Harlan Ellison, and the other under Cordwainer Bird. Later, as discussed in the Controversy section below, he used the pseudonym for material when he disagreed with its use or editing.

Ellison has on occasion used the pseudonym Cordwainer Bird to alert members of the public to situations in which he feels his creative contribution to a project has been mangled beyond repair by others, typically Hollywood producers or studios. (See, e.g., Alan Smithee.) The first such work to which he signed the name was "The Price of Doom," an episode of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (though it was misspelled as Cordwainer Bid in the credits). The "Cordwainer Bird" moniker is a tribute to fellow SF writer Paul M. A. Linebarger, better known by his pen name, Cordwainer Smith. The origin of the word "cordwainer" is shoemaker (from working with cordovan leather for shoes). The term used by Linebarger was meant to imply the industriousness of the pulp author. Ellison has said, in interviews and in his writing, that his version of the pseudonym was meant to mean "a shoemaker for birds". Since he has used the pseudonym mainly for works he wants to distance himself from, it may be understood to mean that "this work is for the birds". Stephen King once said he thought that it meant that Ellison was giving people who mangled his work a literary version of "the bird" (given credence by Ellison himself in his own essay titled "Somehow, I Don't Think We're in Kansas, Toto", describing his experience with the Starlost television series).

Seems to throwback to the concept of Robert Redford in Three Days...

Great thread.

- lee

http://www.xmission.com/~emailbox/burkes.htm

Burke's Law - never heard of it.

Who Killed Alex Debbs? 10/25/63 Alex Debbs, wealthy night club owner and publisher of Debonaire Magazine, is found dead in his new club on opening night. Among the suspects is Sidney Wilde, cartoonist for Debonaire. Wilde readily admits disliking Debbs but denies his murder. Later, Wilde phones Amos to tell him he knows who killed Debbs and that the murderer is with him. Before Wilde can identify the murderer, the phone goes dead.

[Greg Parker]

Bill, so whether it is backtracking or not, it is now (or always was) your position that it was not the CIA per se behind the assassination? Well, good, at least we are on the same page there!

But you state:

And if you look hard enough at Alvarado you'll find David Atlee Phillips.

Okay. Let's go there, then. Your evidence linking Phillips to Alvarado is?

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:vbhzo...;cd=3&gl=us

"....It's also pretty clear that Phillips jumped on the "lets tie Oswald to Castro" bandwagon with the whole Alvarado incident (which Phillips undoubtedly knew to be bogus)..."

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:x5gFK...;cd=6&gl=us

Any evidence for linking Phillips to these intelligence-tinged stories has not yet been made public. We have however Phillips' own statements that he was involved in the transmission of both of the key "phase one" allegations promoted in CIA cables, the Kostikov story of October, and the Alvarado story of November 25.

As mentioned above, it would appear that Phillips' claim to have signed off on the Kostikov cable of October 8 is simply not true. Phillips claimed this in sworn testimony, as part of his effort to rationalize the delay of one week in transmitting the intercepted conversation of October 1. (16) Phillips' admitted role in the transmission of the Alvarado story, that Oswald was paid money in the Mexico City Cuban Consulate to kill Kennedy, is however corroborated by the documentary record. Here too there is a difference between Phillips own account and the cables however. In his autobiography Phillips describes the story he heard from Alvarado's lips as a lie easily seen through, indeed as a "transparent operation." (17) In the cables sent after his interviews with Alvarado, however, the tone is quite different. There we hear that "This officer was impressed by Alvarado ... wealth of detail Alvarado gives is striking." (18) One cable described Alvarado as a "quiet, very serious person, who speaks with conviction;" another, the next day, called him "completely cooperative." (19)

Most revealing was the description of Alvarado as a "well-known Nicaraguan Communist underground member," whereas in fact (as he himself revealed later the same day) he was a penetration agent of the right-wing Somoza Government of Nicaragua. (20) (This revelation was quickly confirmed by CIA cables from Managua and Headquarters). (21)

Winston Scott, Ambassador Thomas Mann, and the Mexican DFS

Assuredly Phillips was not alone in backing the Alvarado story at the time. Ambassador Thomas Mann, together with Station Chief Win Scott and FBI Legal Attache Clark Anderson, sent a Flash cable on November 26 suggesting that Silvia Duran should be rearrested in order to corroborate it:......

WANT MORE?

BK

To this I'd add that Mann let slip that Alvarado had a CIA case officer (though not mentioned by name, it was almost certainly a reference to Phillips). The HSCA wanted to mention this case officer in its discussion of Alvarado, but after submitting a draft to the CIA, the agency wrote back saying it wanted the reference removed. It was.

Alvarado's connection to Nico Intel bookends that of Gaudet's connection. In other words, you've got someone close to those spooks in line with Oswald on Sept 17... then later that month, another close to those spooks allegedly seeing Oswald in Cuban Embassy in MC.

Nico intel and CIA worked closely on many operations...

[William Kelly]

Bill, so whether it is backtracking or not, it is now (or always was) your position that it was not the CIA per se behind the assassination? Well, good, at least we are on the same page there!

But you state:

And if you look hard enough at Alvarado you'll find David Atlee Phillips.

Okay. Let's go there, then. Your evidence linking Phillips to Alvarado is?

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:vbhzo...;cd=3&gl=us

"....It's also pretty clear that Phillips jumped on the "lets tie Oswald to Castro" bandwagon with the whole Alvarado incident (which Phillips undoubtedly knew to be bogus)..."

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:x5gFK...;cd=6&gl=us

Most revealing was the description of Alvarado as a "well-known Nicaraguan Communist underground member," whereas in fact (as he himself revealed later the same day) he was a penetration agent of the right-wing Somoza Government of Nicaragua. (20) (This revelation was quickly confirmed by CIA cables from Managua and Headquarters). (21)

Winston Scott, Ambassador Thomas Mann, and the Mexican DFS

Assuredly Phillips was not alone in backing the Alvarado story at the time. Ambassador Thomas Mann, together with Station Chief Win Scott and FBI Legal Attache Clark Anderson, sent a Flash cable on November 26 suggesting that Silvia Duran should be rearrested in order to corroborate it:......

WANT MORE?

BK

To this I'd add that Mann let slip that Alvarado had a CIA case officer (though not mentioned by name, it was almost certainly a reference to Phillips). The HSCA wanted to mention this case officer in its discussion of Alvarado, but after submitting a draft to the CIA, the agency wrote back saying it wanted the reference removed. It was.

Alvarado's connection to Nico Intel bookends that of Gaudet's connection. In other words, you've got someone close to those spooks in line with Oswald on Sept 17... then later that month, another close to those spooks allegedly seeing Oswald in Cuban Embassy in MC.

Nico intel and CIA worked closely on many operations...

I guess Tim doesn't want any more Greg.

But I do. Of course the Nico Intel - Somoza guys - were involved in Bay of Pigs build up, and their cartel goes back to when the USMC put the Somozas in power, and then the CIA got invovled with the Contras.

In my research of the CIA Catherwood Fund in Philadelphia, I found a CIA officer - E. Wharton Shober - who was head of ATEC - a Chicago based printing company that sold printing presses in Latin America - and then he became head of Hannamen Hospital in Philadelphia, which had US Army research contracts. Shober was also co-director of the Cuban Aid Relief -CAR - a Philadelphia based CIA cuban operation that assisted anti-Batista professionals who fled Cuba.

Shober was very tight with the Somozas - visited them often - and brought them to USA.

While Shober was head of the hospital - he arranged for Anastasio Somoza to receive an honorary degree - over the protesting objections of the medical school faculity and students.

When he finally left Philadelphia Shober was last known to be running a hospital in Saudi Arabia, but then I lost track of him.

I think he may have been Somoza's CIA case officer.

Any info on E. Wharton Shober would be appreciated.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

Bill wrote:

I guess Tim doesn't want any more Greg.

Come on, Bill. The CIA only pays me Monday through Friday. I usually spend the week-end with my daughter.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Greg Parker]

In my research of the CIA Catherwood Fund in Philadelphia, I found a CIA officer - E. Wharton Shober - who was head of ATEC - a Chicago based printing company that sold printing presses in Latin America - and then he became head of Hannamen Hospital in Philadelphia, which had US Army research contracts. Shober was also co-director of the Cuban Aid Relief -CAR - a Philadelphia based CIA cuban operation that assisted anti-Batista professionals who fled Cuba.

Shober was very tight with the Somozas - visited them often - and brought them to USA.

While Shober was head of the hospital - he arranged for Anastasio Somoza to receive an honorary degree - over the protesting objections of the medical school faculity and students.

When he finally left Philadelphia Shober was last known to be running a hospital in Saudi Arabia, but then I lost track of him.

I think he may have been Somoza's CIA case officer.

Any info on E. Wharton Shober would be appreciated.

BK

Bill, prior to Hahnemann, every single business venture he was involved in failed - yet he simultaneously amassed a fortune and decided to turn his attention to "philanthropy". He actually took the job at Hahnamann without pay.

The research contract I think you're alluding to (there were a few) dealt with an experimental program for addicts. It was an unmitigated catastrophe... but had the outward appearance of success via carefully orchestrated deceptions.

In the late 70s, he was indicted for bribery, and banking and mail fraud -- eventually beating all charges. This involved Federal grants obtained with assistance from Reps Flood and Eilberg. Flood was forced out of office as a result. Eilberg got 5 years after pleading guilty to conflict of interest charges and Shober got off clean.

He moved to England after Saudi Arabia and he and his wife started a computer training business in which he promotes himself as the President of a medical college - something I have not been able to confirm as true - and hard to believe given his history at Hahnamann. The couple also has as a company called Allergy Technology Ltd (they have one or two patents concerning such things as eliminating dust mites).

In recent years, he has written a novel loosely based on his experiences in Saudi Arabia. This is available through Lulu online.

[James Richards]

Bill,

Here is the website for that computer training business Greg mentioned.

http://www.winfieldtrust.com/trustees.html

James

[William Kelly]

Bill,

Here is the website for that computer training business Greg mentioned.

http://www.winfieldtrust.com/trustees.html

James

Greg, and James,

Many thanks for this info. I spent a decade trying to find this guy, and he drops the initial of his first name E. Wharton Shober - and while his wife mentions Philly he forgets to mention it in his bio.

And Greg, I don't think he amassed a fortune, I think he already had inherited it. His grandfather Shober was Governor of Pennsylvania and Wharton comes from the largest English grant landowner in South New Jersey - the Wharton Track of N.J. Pine Barrons is still an undeveloped wilderness in the most densley populated state in the union.

At least I now know where he lives and how to contact him with questions, which I will do.

I wonder if he's still pals with the Somoza family?

Thanks again, you guys are the best,

BK