One Last Time

[Tim Gratz]

Chris, I think you mean "lair". "xxxx" is a person who fibs, whose pants may burst into flames.

I think however that your analysis is astute but let's see what Thomas says about it.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Terry Mauro]

Thomas H. Purvis says:

One last time for those who actually care!

1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.

2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO was the shooter.

4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.

5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence. It is in fact the second shot fired.

6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by his USMC Rangefire Record.

7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards (slope distance) from the window to the target.

8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during “Rapid Fire” shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.

9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.

10. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window

(first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this “rushed” shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and everyone.

11. There was no “THE SHOT THAT MISSED”!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

12. With the available evidence, which included a first generation copy of the Z-film, as well as availability of the witness testimonies, the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily resolved the shooting sequence of the shots fired.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

13. There is absolutely nothing which is complicated in regards to the shooting sequence which occurred in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.

What is complicated is the extent to which certain members of the WC went to in order to make an entire shot “disappear”, and thereafter blame the wounds which the bullet created on CE399/aka the “Magic Bullet”.

14. CE399 is not “Magic”.

15. In event that one desires to see the TRUE “Magic Bullet”, then might I recommend that they search for the one which disappeared.

There is no Magic!

however:

“Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear”

Tom

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2295-003.gif

******************************************************************

Not with that gun, Purv. And, I don't put too much stock in any "Mockingbird" History Matters media take on the subject, either.

I long ago disregarded ever hearing anything but a white-wash from any form of T.V. fantasyland-waste-of-my-precious-time.

So, when it comes to this particular aspect of the case, I'll just have to agree to disagree.

In the words of Bob Dylan:

"I'm gonna let you pass, and I'll go last. Then, time will tell just who's be felled, and who's been left behind, when you most likely go your way, and I go mine."

[Terry Mauro]

Chris, I think you mean "lair". "xxxx" is a person who fibs, whose pants may burst into flames.

I think however that your analysis is astute but let's see what Thomas says about it.

************************************************************

We're not supposed to use that term here on the forum.

Your,

Femme Nikita

[Mark Knight]

I think Tom's got it mostly right...BUT:

1. While JFK was hit by three bullets, it seems a Warrenesque leap to conclude that ONLY three shots were fired.

2. While the Mannlicher Carcano was certainly capable of the task, there is no evidence that it was the ONLY weapon fired from the TSBD on 22 November 1963.

3. While LHO was certainly capable of the marksmanship necessary to fell JFK, even Jesse Curry stated that he could not, with 100% certainty, place LHO in THAT window with THAT rifle at THAT time frame.

4. I agree that three shots struck JFK.

5. Z313 was NOT the final shot, according to witnesses.

Numbers 6 thru 10 I concur with, but not necessarily with all of Tom's conclusions regarding them.

And number 15...was that the bullet that left behind a lot of fragments in JBC's body, but considerably more than CE399 was missing? Or was that the one that hit JBC a bit AFTER JFK was first hit, but before Z313?

I tend to think that ONE of those bullets was possibly fired from the southWEST window of the 6th floor of the TSBD...meaning that there was a second shooter, and therefore a conspiracy...and I think it was possibly the [first] bullet that hit JBC, as he was trying to get the limo door to open.

[Chris Brown]

Chris, I think you mean "lair". "xxxx" is a person who fibs, whose pants may burst into flames.

I think however that your analysis is astute but let's see what Thomas says about it.

Tim,

Apologies to Tom and others regarding my miss-spelling of Lair.

I must remember not to rely on ‘SPELL CHECK’ and fully edit my replies.

Chris Brown.

PS. John, I will post a photo as soon as one of the kids have shown me the process.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Try "connecting the dots", and if and when you can figure it out, then get back to me on it and I just may describe the remainder of the bullet track through the mid-brain!

This is all so Hannibal Lecter-esque I could just faint!

We're sooo ambitious, aren't we? Do you know what we look like to Mr. Purvis? With our expensive computers and cheap rationales?

We look like rubes! Well-spoken, hustling rubes, with a little information.

Good public education has given us length of concentration, but we're not more than one generation from poor dolts, aren"t we? And this gullibility we've tried so desperately to shed -- pure liberalism. What did our parents do? Did they protest the Viet Nam War? Did they stink of the Lamb?

We know how quickly the conspiracy theorists found us. All those late-night research sessions in poorly lit libraries, while we could only dream of solving the case. Solving anything, getting all the way to the C ... I ... A.

At least when Hannibal promised to go away, he did.

Charles Drago

Good public education has given us length of concentration, but we're not more than one generation from poor dolts, aren"t we

Ever bothered to actually read and STUDY the WC?

Had one done so, then it would be quite difficult to reconcile exactly how one came away with the impression that Z313 was the last shot.

Especially when, in addition to the witness testimony, there is clearly that evidence which demonstrates that Z313 is at survey stationing 4+65.3 and that the third shot impact was at statioining 4+96 (5+00 minum 4-).

Ever bother to look at LHO actual shooting ability?

Ever bother to review the survey data?

Ever bother to locate and speak with any of the autopsy surgeons? FBI Agent Robert Frazier; Gallagher; Heiberger; Heilman; etc; etc.

Ever bother to locate and speak with Dr. Perry or any of the other Doctors & Nurses of Parkland.

How many Carcano's do you own and have you test fired, as well as evaluating the historical past of this rifle.

A "good education" should have impressed upon you the importance of factual and "first person" research, so I would guess that somewhere along the line, you missed the boat on that aspect.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom wrote:

‘History can not go "back" now and search for those individuals who are long since deceased, and thus resolve the issue of exactly what &/or who was behind LHO and his Lone Assassin (the only one shooting) shooting of JFK.’

Tom,

Are you suggesting that?

(1) There was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK.

(2) LHO was the only shooter.

(3) The first shot hit JFK & JC simultaneously (SBT) at about Z160

(4) The second shot hit JFK in the head at Z313

(5) The third (and last) shot hit JFK in the head about 2.5 sec after Z313.

(6) The three shots were fired from the TSBD shooters xxxx.

Chris Brown.

1) There was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK.

Beyond any reasonable doubt.

(2) LHO was the only shooter.

Beyond any reasonable doubt.

(3) The first shot hit JFK & JC simultaneously (SBT) at about Z160

Forget about Z160. The first shot occurred at/about 204/206. Confirmation of reation to this shot was established at/around Z212/214.

The first shot/aka CE399 created no injuries to JBC.

(4) The second shot hit JFK in the head at Z313

Correct! With a lead fragment from this shot to JFK's head, exiting and striking JBC in the wrist.

(5) The third (and last) shot hit JFK in the head about 2.5 sec after Z313.

Partially correct. The third/last/final shot, which impacted some 30+ feet farther down Elm St., directly in front of James Altgens, also struck JFK in the head, as well as having struck JBC in the back after having exited the head of JFK.

As to the time, NOPE!

Actually the elapsed time was less than the 2.3 seconds minimum shooting time which the WC claims.

(have not gotten around to explaning how that was pulled over everyone's eyes)

(6) The three shots were fired from the TSBD shooters xxxx.

All three shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, all shots came from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle recovered there, and to a "beyond a reasonable doubt", LHO was the shooter.

Tom

P.S. The WC is an intentional obfuscation of the simple facts of the assassination.

And, a good one I might also add!

Edited October 17, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I think Tom's got it mostly right...BUT:

1. While JFK was hit by three bullets, it seems a Warrenesque leap to conclude that ONLY three shots were fired.

One can not "disprove" that a dozen shots were not fired. However, when the WC testimonies are fully reviewed, along with the multitudes of witness statements found within the Dallas Archives, the great preponderance of evidence clealy states THREE SHOTS!

2. While the Mannlicher Carcano was certainly capable of the task, there is no evidence that it was the ONLY weapon fired from the TSBD on 22 November 1963.

3. While LHO was certainly capable of the marksmanship necessary to fell JFK, even Jesse Curry stated that he could not, with 100% certainty, place LHO in THAT window with THAT rifle at THAT time frame.

Certainly not! And, even were one to have a photo of LHO standing in the window, any good lawyer could still make some case for it not being him, or else a doctored photo.

The totality of the circumstances demonstrate that, beyond any reasonable doubt, it not only was LHO, but that he had been planning this little "rapid fire" exercise for some time.

4. I agree that three shots struck JFK.

5. Z313 was NOT the final shot, according to witnesses.

Numbers 6 thru 10 I concur with, but not necessarily with all of Tom's conclusions regarding them.

And number 15...was that the bullet that left behind a lot of fragments in JBC's body, but considerably more than CE399 was missing? Or was that the one that hit JBC a bit AFTER JFK was first hit, but before Z313?

The second shot/aka Z313 which struck JFK in the head, sent fragments flying in multiple directions.

One of these lead fragments struck and fractured the wrist of JBC.

And, although the third shot (which was also a 6.5mm Carcano bullet) ultimately had a considerably flattened and "bent" nose, for all practical purposes, none of it's structure is missing.

I tend to think that ONE of those bullets was possibly fired from the southWEST window of the 6th floor of the TSBD...meaning that there was a second shooter, and therefore a conspiracy...and I think it was possibly the [first] bullet that hit JBC, as he was trying to get the limo door to open.

Other than that part about the second shooter and bullet, "When you're hot, you're hot"!

There are "reactions" and there are "reactions"!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Chris, I think you mean "lair". "xxxx" is a person who fibs, whose pants may burst into flames.

I think however that your analysis is astute but let's see what Thomas says about it.

Tim,

Apologies to Tom and others regarding my miss-spelling of Lair.

I must remember not to rely on ‘SPELL CHECK’ and fully edit my replies.

Chris Brown.

PS. John, I will post a photo as soon as one of the kids have shown me the process.

Apologies to Tom

One just may want to check Tom's severe lack of spell checking as well as frequent grammer, prior to offering anything even close to an apology.

Nevertheless, due noted and appreciated!

Tom, (too old to give a RA)

[Guest Gary Loughran]

P.S. The WC is an intentional obfuscation of the simple facts of the assassination.

And, a good one I might also add!

I know you've answered this before and it escapes me.

Why was it necessary for TWC to convolute such simple facts to give the same fundamental answer?

Thanks

Gary

[Thomas H. Purvis]

P.S. The WC is an intentional obfuscation of the simple facts of the assassination.

And, a good one I might also add!

I know you've answered this before and it escapes me.

Why was it necessary for TWC to convolute such simple facts to give the same fundamental answer?

Thanks

Gary

Post #38

as he was trying to get the limo door to open.

Some get so close to the answer, that they fail to see it!

[Antti Hynonen]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 12:15 PM

QUOTE(Chris Brown @ Oct 16 2007, 10:02 AM)

Tom wrote:

‘History can not go "back" now and search for those individuals who are long since deceased, and thus resolve the issue of exactly what &/or who was behind LHO and his Lone Assassin (the only one shooting) shooting of JFK.’

Tom,

Are you suggesting that?

(1) There was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK.

(2) LHO was the only shooter.

(3) The first shot hit JFK & JC simultaneously (SBT) at about Z160

(4) The second shot hit JFK in the head at Z313

(5) The third (and last) shot hit JFK in the head about 2.5 sec after Z313.

(6) The three shots were fired from the TSBD shooters xxxx.

Chris Brown.

1) There was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK.

Beyond any reasonable doubt.

(2) LHO was the only shooter.

Beyond any reasonable doubt.

(3) The first shot hit JFK & JC simultaneously (SBT) at about Z160

Forget about Z160. The first shot occurred at/about 204/206. Confirmation of reation to this shot was established at/around Z212/214.

The first shot/aka CE399 created no injuries to JBC.

(4) The second shot hit JFK in the head at Z313

Correct! With a lead fragment from this shot to JFK's head, exiting and striking JBC in the wrist.

(5) The third (and last) shot hit JFK in the head about 2.5 sec after Z313.

Partially correct. The third/last/final shot, which impacted some 30+ feet farther down Elm St., directly in front of James Altgens, also struck JFK in the head, as well as having struck JBC in the back after having exited the head of JFK.

As to the time, NOPE!

Actually the elapsed time was less than the 2.3 seconds minimum shooting time which the WC claims.

(have not gotten around to explaning how that was pulled over everyone's eyes)

(6) The three shots were fired from the TSBD shooters xxxx.

All three shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, all shots came from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle recovered there, and to a "beyond a reasonable doubt", LHO was the shooter.

Tom

P.S. The WC is an intentional obfuscation of the simple facts of the assassination.

And, a good one I might also add!

So, you did sort of break it down. Thanks for that.

Tom, I like many, agree with you on points 1, 3, 4.

2,5 and 6 are a bit more of a problem.

Why?

Well, how do you explain that the back wound sustained by JFK, and the hole in the front of the neck can be from the same bullet? First off, this would make it a bullet on an upward trajectory, second of all, the wound in the back was probed, in the presence of many, and was demonstrated to be no deeper than one inch or so.

A few (dozen) frames after the 313 headshot, Connally is being pulled down towards his wife, while he is already injured. This is not clear in the Zapruder film, but is clear from Mr. and Mrs. Connally's testimony. According to the testimony, John Connally is already wounded in the back and chest from the gunshot wound sustained by the second audible gun shot.

Here is Nelly Connally's testimony. She is very clear about this tragic scenario:

Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."I never again----

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."

Edited October 18, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 12:15 PM

QUOTE(Chris Brown @ Oct 16 2007, 10:02 AM)

Tom wrote:

‘History can not go "back" now and search for those individuals who are long since deceased, and thus resolve the issue of exactly what &/or who was behind LHO and his Lone Assassin (the only one shooting) shooting of JFK.’

Tom,

Are you suggesting that?

(1) There was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK.

(2) LHO was the only shooter.

(3) The first shot hit JFK & JC simultaneously (SBT) at about Z160

(4) The second shot hit JFK in the head at Z313

(5) The third (and last) shot hit JFK in the head about 2.5 sec after Z313.

(6) The three shots were fired from the TSBD shooters xxxx.

Chris Brown.

1) There was a conspiracy in the assassination of JFK.

Beyond any reasonable doubt.

(2) LHO was the only shooter.

Beyond any reasonable doubt.

(3) The first shot hit JFK & JC simultaneously (SBT) at about Z160

Forget about Z160. The first shot occurred at/about 204/206. Confirmation of reation to this shot was established at/around Z212/214.

The first shot/aka CE399 created no injuries to JBC.

(4) The second shot hit JFK in the head at Z313

Correct! With a lead fragment from this shot to JFK's head, exiting and striking JBC in the wrist.

(5) The third (and last) shot hit JFK in the head about 2.5 sec after Z313.

Partially correct. The third/last/final shot, which impacted some 30+ feet farther down Elm St., directly in front of James Altgens, also struck JFK in the head, as well as having struck JBC in the back after having exited the head of JFK.

As to the time, NOPE!

Actually the elapsed time was less than the 2.3 seconds minimum shooting time which the WC claims.

(have not gotten around to explaning how that was pulled over everyone's eyes)

(6) The three shots were fired from the TSBD shooters xxxx.

All three shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, all shots came from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle recovered there, and to a "beyond a reasonable doubt", LHO was the shooter.

Tom

P.S. The WC is an intentional obfuscation of the simple facts of the assassination.

And, a good one I might also add!

So, you did sort of break it down. Thanks for that.

Tom, I like many, agree with you on points 1, 3, 4.

2,5 and 6 are a bit more of a problem.

Why?

Well, how do you explain that the back wound sustained by JFK, and the hole in the front of the neck can be from the same bullet?

I will be, to the pain of many, re-posting those drawings which demonstrate the source of the bullet fragment which was responsible for the small 3mm to 5mm anterior throat wound incurred by JFK. And, rest assured, it was not caused by CE399, as CE399 merely lodged quite shallow into the back of JFK.

The anterior throat wound was caused by the now missing "cone-shaped/flat based" 0.9 grain lead fragment which was sheared from the base of CE399 due to impact with the right transverse process of the C7 vertebrae.

(See CE840).

This lead fragment was recovered in the left rear floorboard of the Presidential Limo, along with two other irregular small lead fragments.

fThe missing fragment from CE840, was removed from the FBI Ballistics lab by William Sullivan.

First off, this would make it a bullet on an upward trajectory, second of all, the wound in the back was probed, in the presence of many, and was demonstrated to be no deeper than one inch or so.

A few (dozen) frames after the 313 headshot, Connally is being pulled down towards his wife, while he is already injured. This is not clear in the Zapruder film, but is clear from Mr. and Mrs. Connally's testimony. According to the testimony, John Connally is already wounded in the back and chest from the gunshot wound sustained by the second audible gun shot.

Here is Nelly Connally's testimony. She is very clear about this tragic scenario:

Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."I never again----

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?

Consider this!

Ever seen anyone who had some 5-inches of his right fifth rib blown out/into their right lung, with the lung thereafter ripped all to pieces by the bone of the rib, thereafter yell quite clearly and distinctively "My god, they are going to kill us all".

Personally, I have seen my share of bullet wounds, and when one is severely injured, they do not speak in coherent phrases.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."

P.S. JBC has lied on several occassions in regards to the facts of the events. Now! If, and when, one figures out the exact reasons for such lies, then one just may begin to understand why:

"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear".

[Tim Gratz]

Well, the "tag line" from the movie Michael Clayton makes a great summary for the government investigation of the assassination:

The truth can be adjusted.

Certainly it can and was.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...7a05?hl=en&

1. Even were one to have access to the absolutely original Zapruder film, the "blur/Jiggle" analysis is merely a substantive indicator.

2. The witness testimonies clearly establish that the first shot struck JFK and he was seen reacting to it. The US Secret Service as well as the FBI, established this reaction as being at some point from the Z204/206 point at which JFK begins to disappear behind the Stemmons sign, and that point at approximately Z212/214.

3. The witness testimonies clearly establish that the headshot at Z313 was the SECOND SHOT in the shooting sequence, as well as establishing the impact to the head of JFK, of which the Z-film clearly shows.

4. The witness testimonies clearly establish to approximate location of the Presidential Limo at the time of the third/last/final shot. And, this location was considerably farther down Elm St. from that point of the Z313 impact.

5. James Altgens clearly states of haveing observed the result of the impact to the head of JFK by the LAST shot fired.

6. Nellie Connally clearly states of having observed as well as felt the cerebral tissue of JFK being blown all over her and JBC from the LAST SHOT fired, which she also clearly states that JBC was down laying across the seats with his head in her lap at the time of this shot.

Rest assured! There is nothing difficult in resolving exactly where each shot was fired, as well as exactly who these shots impacted upon.

Thankfully, I was never under some misconception that even the worst shot in the USMC could not hit a slow moving target at ranges which did not exceed 98 yards.

And, since LHO was a relatively good to excellent shot, I most assuredly never believed the WC's "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".