The JFK Conspiracy - Versions

[Evan Burton]

As a person who has no knowledge, opinion, etc of the JFK saga, could I ask people to put forward a concise explanation of the JFK events?

I would ask people NOT to refute other peoples versions of events - simply state what they believe to be the true account of events. If further explanation is necessary, then please do so.... to a point. A few paragraphs, at max. If you think what someone else has posted is wrong - then remain silent. This is primarily for me (and thus my starting of the thread) but I would like to her all aspects - from the Lone Gunman to the....?

Thanks!

P.S. Please treat this thread as what it is intended - a place to put forward various theories. NOT a place to dispute the various theories. ANY theory is valid.

[Charles Drago]

Evan,

The only effective -- let alone sane -- way to understand what happened to JFK is to conduct what I've termed a three-phase investigation and to zealously segregate those phases.

PHASE ONE -- HOW was Kennedy killed?

PHASE TWO -- WHO could have done it the way it was done?

PHASE THREE -- WHY did they do it?

The first question has been answered beyond all doubt and to the degree of metaphysical certitude: The evidence -- medical, eyewitness, earwitness, photographic, and forensic -- in its totality supports no conclusion other than conspiracy.

This is not theory. This is not opinion. This is not belief. This is fact.

And once again, likely to the dismay of some, I must reiterate the mantra:

Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in the JFK case who does not conclude that the president was assassinated by conspirators is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.

Answering the second question requires what might best be termed the reverse-engineerings of the hit itself and the cover-up, and the manners in which circumstances were manipulated to make them possible as they went down.

And the third question is put to rest when the motives of those identified in the previous phase are delineated.

Back to Phase One: There is not a scintilla of untainted evidence to support a Lone Nut argument. Those of us who enjoy "reasonable access" to the evidence and who are neither "cognitively impared" nor "complicit in the crime" are honor-bound to countenance no debate whatsoever on this question if in fact the would-be proponent of the LN argument is in a position to know better.

Further, we are obliged to inform well-intentioned newcomers to the assassination investigation that conspiracy in the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy is established fact. The HOW question has been answered.

I trust this response is in keeping with the spirt of your inquiry.

Charles Drago

Edited October 14, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Tim Gratz]

So, Charles, is Vincent Bugliosi "cognitively impaired or complicit in the crime"?

I assert that anyone who cannot recognize that reasonable and intelligent minds differ on the evidence needs to come back to reality.

[Courtney Redd]

Here goes:

There is no doubt in my mind that President Kennedy was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy within the United States government.

The plots to kill Fidel Castro turned into Dallas. What I mean by this is the people involved in the attempted assassination of Fidel Castro used their knowledge, skills and wherewithal to murder JFK. How? By hiring a couple well-trained assassins and installing them in Dealey Plaza. The conspirators were people who were already consorting with criminals (the Mafia) and had the mentality of "the ends justify the means." They were already plotting to kill one leader and had overthrown and/or killed others; what difference would it make killing the President of the United States?

Why? Because of their perception that President Kennedy had betrayed them on various levels, mainly at the Bay of Pigs, but also in his refusal to deal effectively with the Soviets during the Cuban Missle Crisis; his desire to remove personnel from Vietnam after the 1964 election; and his adversarial relationship with his military advisors and the CIA. I think those factions (military and CIA) believed Kennedy stood in their way of success, and the only way to continue to propagate their worldview and continue their policies was to get rid of him.

The same people and their pals (and their offspring) are still in power today.

[Tim Gratz]

Mr. Burton, I hate to say this, but an old saying comes to mind:

Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know.

What you will get here are people's theories. No member of this Forum can know with certainty who did it.

[Courtney Redd]

Mr. Burton, I hate to say this, but an old saying comes to mind:

Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know.

What you will get here are people's theories. No member of this Forum can know with certainty who did it.

Please treat this thread as what it is intended - a place to put forward various theories. NOT a place to dispute the various theories. ANY theory is valid.

So I'd take that to mean exactly what it says, wouldn't you?

[Harry J.Dean]

From 1990 manuscript/book YROJ Connection To JFK Assassination.

Page 12.........

President Kennedy stated, "the very system of government is

in dire peril and may not survive my term in office." Kennedy

was describing the severe threat posed by extremely powerful

cooperative civil and military sedition at work.

[Myra Bronstein]

Intro:

The US government murdered President Kennedy.

In 1963 the US government was the Military-Industrial-(Congressional)-Complex that Eisenhower warned against after spending 8 years bouncing between golf courses and hospitals. Meanwhile Nixon, aka Prescott Bush's lapdog, was inserted into the VP slot to be heir apparent and insure that the US would retain the favorable business climate they enjoyed under Eisenhower. The actual US capital was in Texas due to the immense power wielded by big oil and the nascent defense (i.e., offense) industry.

Background:

US business moguls had been battling for years to beat down labor unions and their pesky demands for fair treatment and a reasonable share of the profits they help generate. When Hitler emerged in Germany and German industrialists, notably Fritz Thyssen, threw their financial support behind him after getting his assurance that he would crush labor unions, US moguls realized that they wanted the business environment Germany had under Hitler: unions illegal, unionists jailed or dead, wages lowered and locked, work enforced just like the military.

Instead of Hitler however they had Franklin Roosevelt who--in spite of his personal wealth--was a populist with every intention of reining in the robber barons and bankers who had created the 1929 stock market fiasco that caused world-wide pain to ordinary working folks (while bankers and the central private banks did just fine repossessing property). The US business moguls, including Duponts and JP Morgan (and some say Prescott Bush but I've yet to see good evidence of his involvement), formulated the Business Coup wherein they approached retired military generals such as notorious nutter Douglass MacArthur, to ask them to serve as figurehead and rally the US military to the cause of overthrowing FDR. In the process they made the mistake of approaching General Smedley Butler, a principled man who refused to become involved. He reported the attempted coup to congress. This resulted in the McCormick-Dickstein congressional committee which confirmed General Butler's account, yet opted not to punish the treasonous clan behind the coup. In fact with the help of the complacent media they kept it very quiet.

The moguls learned a very important lesson. If you're rich and powerful there is no down-side to trying to overthrow the US government.

Why:

Led by the Suite 8F group--which represented big business and their subsidiaries in local and federal legislatures--and allied with the American Security Council--who represent big business and their subsidiaries in the US congress--oil and defense interests watched President Kennedy nervously from the second he got the democratic nomination to see if he "understood business." On the one had they had reason to be optimistic because his father Joe Kennedy was one of them. On the other hand they were edgy because John Kennedy as a US congressman and senator, had no clear agenda--no landmark legislation--no track record that would make his ideology and sympathies crystal clear.

Suite 8F's favorite son Lyndon Johnson, who most definitely "understood business," could not be elected president because he was a southerner. Period. So they had to secure the Vice Presidential slot for LBJ to insure that the white house contained a business friendly (anti-labor) Executive. The VP slot was secured at the democratic convention, possibly through blackmail which was one of LBJ's chief means of attaining power.

The moguls watched with growing disgust as it became clear that President Kennedy was a populist. JFK, an immensely wealthy man with a father who was a hugely successful business man, was completely unimpressed by big business and, in fact, seemed to have little respect for the style of predatory "disaster capitalism" so widely practiced by companies like US Steel.

For example, when President Kennedy slapped down US Steel after it attempted to betray the steel union and raise prices, after justifying a wage freeze by telling the union that they would not raise prices, JFK waged war on them. JFK's public war, in press conferences, through the media and most-important through his brother's justice department, got US Steel to back down on their price increase.

(For further details see:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...p;#entry115524)

President Kennedy continued to ally himself with the people who voted for him, and--to the continued disgust of business titans like HL Hunt, Clint Murchison and George Brown of Brown and Root--all of whom supported LBJ--seemed to take his oath of office seriously.

JFK was pulling us out of Vietnam, dashing the hopes of the armaments industry to make a killing in that region, and raising the ire of the CIA who was solidifying their hold on international drug trafficking and the golden triangle so important to the heroin trade.

JFK had already repeatedly refused to wage war with Cuba in spite of massive attempts by the CIA, the enforcement branch of big business, and by the hawks in the Joint Chiefs of Staff who were desperate to justify their jobs and use their stockpiled toys to force his hand with the Bay of Pigs setup, and later with the Cuban Missile Crisis. They dubbed JFK "soft on Communism," the code phrase for those supportive of organized labor, for his friendly rhetoric towards the Soviet Union and his successful effort to ratify a test ban treaty.

Their exasperation with JFK, who actually inherited an undeclared war against Cuba from General Eisenhower and still refused to prosecute the war, was explosive. The reaction of Cuban exiles to their failure to regain their homeland was just as explosive. And the CIA made sure that this hatred was channeled into shaping the militant Cubans into a force of highly trained terrorists and mercenaries by dangling the carrot of a Castro-free Cuba in front of the exiles.

President Kennedy defied the military-industrial-congressional complex in every way.

He recognized that the CIA had an agenda that was at odds with his agenda. He threatened to splinter them into a thousand pieces.

He stated his intention of raising taxes on the US oil industry by eliminating the oil depletion allowance. HL Hunt, a powerful backer of LBJ who became the richest man in the world with the help of such tax breaks, was furious.

He and Attorney General Bobby Kennedy attacked the mob, not realizing until far into the process that the mob was an important part of the CIA and therefore part of his own government. AG Kennedy went after corruption and theft in labor unions, thereby erasing the only good that--from the perspective of business magnates--could come from labor unions.

JFK ignored the advice of his military experts and gave the TFX fighter plane contract to General Dynamics instead of Boeing.

He was an intelligent and thoughtful man who encouraged education and culture when titans like the Rockefellers (who had their own political ambitions thwarted) were actively trying to dumb down American public schooling with the aim of creating generations of docile ditch diggers for the work force.

Civil rights was exploding just as Kennedy was already fighting for his political and literal life. He tried to get leaders like Martin Luther King to wait until his second term when he could work towards his legacy and not just his reelection. But African Americans were understandably tired of waiting, and with little reason to trust this rich white president pressed forward with their cause. Once his hand was forced by civil rights leaders, activists (like James Meridith) and the US Supreme Court JFK embraced the cause of civil rights and made it a moral imperative, thereby earning the hatred of the knuckle-dragging racist demographic: KKK, John Birch Society, Minutemen, etc. And of course there is much overlap between the racists and the military (e.g., Edwin Walker), big business (HL Hunt), Dallas Police Department (of course Earle Cabell overlaps with the CIA too) and many other contingents.

JFK planned to get rid of J Edgar Hoover, the mob-coddling democracy-hating racist in charge of the FBI, as soon as he was reelected. And LBJ was toast unless something dramatic happened. Not only would he be dropped from the ticket for the 1964 election, but he'd likely be in prison, or at least out of politics, by then because of the details emerging from the Bobby Baker scandal ongoing November 22, 1963. That fact dictated the timing of the assassination.

Summary:

The bottom line is that the 35th President of the United States was at a crossroads of history that would likely have crushed him no matter who he was, unless he was a member in good standing of the military-industrial-congressional-complex. President Kennedy was not. Instead he was president of by and for the people, who took his oath of office seriously and made enemies of everyone who was a member in good standing of the military-industrial-congressional-complex. So he was removed, and LBJ--always happy to oblige a profitable cause--willingly replaced President Kennedy and made the agenda of "disaster capitalism" his.

Who, aka "Prime Suspects":

Suite 8F Group

American Security Council?

Big Oil:

HL Hunt

Nelson Bunker Hunt

Lamar Hunt?

Clint Murchison

Armaments Industry:

Brown and Root

George Brown

Bell Helicoptor?

LBJ

Mac Wallace

Nixon

Jack Ruby

Jimmy Hoffa?

George HW Bush

Edwin Walker

Curtis LeMay

CIA

(too many to list)

Cuban Exiles

(too many to list)

Dallas Police

(too many to list)

Issac Irving Davidson

John McCloy

Et Al--http://www.jfktimeline.com/

Suspects and Motives (a work in progress)

Cover up:

LBJ

J Edgar Hoover

Warren Commission

[Charles Drago]

So, Charles, is Vincent Bugliosi "cognitively impaired or complicit in the crime"?

I assert that anyone who cannot recognize that reasonable and intelligent minds differ on the evidence needs to come back to reality.

Answer to your question: Yes.

Reasonable and intelligent minds cannot differ on the JFK legitimate evidence any more than they can on the evidence for the shape of the earth.

This isn't "I'm OK, you're OK."

This is war.

Conspiracy in the death of JFK is FACT.

Pick a side.

(Let me guess.)

Charles Drago

[Charles Drago]

I am obliged to note that "reasonable and intelligent minds" can indeed differ on the "WHO" and "WHY" assassination questions.

Within reasonable limits, that is.

Which is to say, neither space aliens nor Mafiosi nor Cubans sponsored the hit.

But as many as two out of those three candidates likely were involved as facilitators and/or patsies.

Charles

[Tim Gratz]

Proposition: No dog can bark.

Evidence Point #1: 1. My pet Fido is a dog.

Evidence Point #2: Fido barks.

Obvious conclusion: the proposition is wrong.

Charles' Proposition: Reasonable and intelligent minds cannot differ on the JFK legitimate evidence any more than they can on the evidence for the shape of the earth.

That proposition is as easily defeated as the proposition that no dog can bark. Plain and simply put. many, many reasonable men do not believe there is evidence for a conspiracy, but no reasonable men dispute the shape of the earth.

[Evan Burton]

Mr. Burton, I hate to say this, but an old saying comes to mind:

Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know.

What you will get here are people's theories. No member of this Forum can know with certainty who did it.

That is exactly what I want Tim - to hear what people think. You may think they are wildly wrong - but it is their opinion and I'd like to hear all opinions.

I am particularly interested in the common aspects of theories that are sometimes quite different.

Also, please remember - I would ask people not to comment on any particular theory. This is not a thread to debate or argue in; it is simply one that I (and others) can hear what others think.

[Charles Drago]

Plain and simply put. many, many reasonable men do not believe there is evidence for a conspiracy[.]

Any reasonable man -- or woman -- who has access to the evidence of conspiracy yet chooses not to accept is ... wait for it ... cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.

My teeth are starting to hurt.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Greg Parker]

Though some speculation of necessity does permeate it, this is not really a theory. It is mainly looking at Oswald's known actions and fitting them into known events/studies/operations/policies. Due to the expected length, and limitations on my time, it will be broken into parts. For the same reasons, I will also dispense with citations.

EDIT: Evan having just re-read your initial post, I can only say making this concise, and a few paras max is virtually impossible. It's a complex case, and by your own words, you're starting from virtually a zero knowledge base. However, it's your thread, and rather than waste time giving your far more detail than you may be prepared to spend time reading, I'll pass on continuing.

A POTTED HISTORY OF THE ASSASSINATION & THE ALLEGED ASSASSIN:

Part One:

* The alleged brainwashing of US soldiers, and subsequent defection of POWs during the Korean War was a major concern leading to a study on youth between ages 13 and 17 to identify those most at risk of communist propaganda/brainwashing techniques and defection, and ways in which to "immunize" those at risk. The flip side was in plowing more resources into extant programs developing those same techniques and pulling them under one umbrella; MKULTRA.

* The above-mentioned study found the "type" at risk to be youth: raised in the South; brought up by a domineering/single mother and lacking male role models; have above-average intelligence; have noted behavioral problems; and lack respect for authority. This profile fits LHO to the proverbial "T", noting also that even though he moved to New York at age 12, it was only after his 13th birthday that his truancy began and was imo, likely due to creating the perfect profile for future intelligence use. He was next put through the process recommended in the study for "immunizing" such youth... ie referral to organizations such as Big Brother Inc and YMCA (and once in New Orleans, he would join another of the recommended orgs... CAP).

* He was probably brought to New York and brought into this scheme by his half brother, John Pic, who at the time, was working closely with both ONI and FBI and their informants as part of his work with the Port Security Unit. Heavily involved in the Korean POW study was Robert Morris who had been in ONI and was regarded as the leading authority on Communist influence on youth via his work with various government committees - particularly those involving the outing of (suspected) communist teachers in New York. Indeed, he along with a lawyer for the New York School Boards, ran an informant ring made up primarily of school kids. LHO may well have also been part of that.

* If he was indeed drawn into the intelligence world, hung with the profile of a potential defector, psychological testing would necessarily have been carried out. And indeed, Marguerite's housekeeper told the FBI that Marguerite had confided to her that she had brought Lee to New York specifically to have him undergo "mental tests". Since Lee's records and the testimony of family reveal no mental abnormalities or behavioural problems in Lee prior to moving to New York, other reasons for such testing must have been present. Such testing may have been done whilst Lee was at Youth House. Alternatively, it may have been conducted at one of the universities Lee visited with John Pic who was ostensibly looking to enroll (though never did). To be fair, both Marguerite and Pic denied in testimony any such testing took place, but it's difficult to imagine the housekeeper making the story up with no apparent motive for doing so, and easy to understand why Marguerite and Pic might deny the claim.

* After leaving New York for New Orleans, LHO joined the CAP and made an illegal effort to join the Marines. He then took a series of jobs working as office boy/courier, before being moved to Fort Worth where he wrote to the Socialist Party prior to successfully enlisting in the Marines. After boot camp, next stop, Radar School. Somehow this was achieved despite having a long history of media otitis with resultant hearing loss, as well as not declaring his previous attempt to enlist - among other possible anomalies in his enlistment.

* The political backdrop to all this was a new era of global (ie inclusive of the Soviet Bloc countries) cooperation on matters of science, technology, trade and culture brought about by the launch of Sputnik and the fear of Soviet dominance in space and war machines. This saw the rise of things like Trade Marts, student exchange programs, less travel restrictions, the International Geophysical Year etc etc. Among the movers and shakers of various facets of all this new-found cooperation were the likes of Percival Brundage (Ike's Director of the Bureau of the Budget, of whom there is more to follow in Pt 2), Frederick T Merrill, and a man who did groundbreaking work in radar development and who would later be on the Dallas Host Committee for JFK's visit to Nut Country.

* Ruth Paine became involved with the new agreement on student exchanges with the Soviets through the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers) and was the liaison with the State Dept where Frederick T Merrill had final say on the program. Merrill, at the same time, was the conduit for CIA money to emigre groups engaged in efforts to take back Eastern Europe.

* Around this same time-frame, Richard Snyder was acting as a spotter at Harvard for the Soviet-Russian Division within the Directorate of Plans of the CIA -- recruiting students from the Russian Research Center for potential travel to Russia as "Redskin" operatives. One such recruit was Edward L Keenan who went to Russia to study at the Leningrad University under the new Student Exchange agreement. Paying his way was CIA money filtered through a Ford Foundation Fellowship. In July '59, Snyder became First Consul at the US Embassy in Moscow. Keenan also arrived in the USSR that year - as would Lee Harvey Oswald. Redskin was designed to utilize "legal travelers" to Soviet Bloc countries to provide support for operations "Red Sox" & "Red Cap".

Part 2, will start by backing up to Oswald in the Marines.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Greg Parker

[Jack White]

Though some speculation of necessity does permeate it, this is not really a theory. It is mainly looking at Oswald's known actions and fitting them into known events/studies/operations/policies. Due to the expected length, and limitations on my time, it will be broken into parts. For the same reasons, I will also dispense with citations.

A POTTED HISTORY OF THE ASSASSINATION & THE ALLEGED ASSASSIN:

Part One:

* The alleged brainwashing of US soldiers, and subsequent defection of POWs during the Korean War was a major concern leading to a study on youth between ages 13 and 17 to identify those most at risk of communist propaganda/brainwashing techniques and defection, and ways in which to "immunize" those at risk. The flip side was in plowing more resources into extant programs developing those same techniques and pulling them under one umbrella; MKULTRA.

* The above-mentioned study found the "type" at risk to be youth: raised in the South; brought up by a domineering/single mother and lack male role models; have above-average intelligence; have noted behavioral problems; and lack respect for authority. This profile fits LHO to the proverbial "T", noting also that even though he moved to New York at age 12, it was only after his 13th birthday that his truancy began and was imo, likely due to creating the perfect profile for future intelligence use. He was next put through the process recommended in the study for "immunizing" such youth... ie referral to organizations such as Big Brother Inc and YMCA (and once in New Orleans, he would join another of the recommended orgs... CAP).

* He was probably brought to New York and brought into this scheme by his half brother, John Pic, who at the time, was working closely with both ONI and FBI and their informants as part of his work with the Port Security Unit. Heavily involved in the Korean POW study was Robert Morris who had been in ONI and was regarded as the leading authority on Communist influence on youth via his work with various government committees - particularly those involving the outing of (suspected) communist teachers in New York. Indeed, he along with a lawyer for the New York School Boards, ran an informant ring made up primarily of school kids. LHO may well have also been part of that.

* If he was indeed drawn into the intelligence world, hung with the profile of a potential defector, psychological testing would necessarily have been carried out. And indeed, Marguerite's housekeeper told the FBI that Marguerite had confided to her that she had brought Lee to New York specifically to have him undergo "mental tests". Since Lee's records and the testimony of family reveal no mental abnormalities or behavioural problems in Lee prior to moving to New York, other reasons for such testing must have been present. Such testing may have been done whilst Lee was at Youth House. Alternatively, it may have been conducted at one of the universities Lee visited with John Pic who was ostensibly looking to enroll (though never did). To be fair, both Marguerite and Pic denied in testimony any such testing took place, but it's difficult to imagine the housekeeper making the story up with no apparent motive for doing so, and easy to understand why Marguerite and Pic might deny the claim.

* After leaving New York for New Orleans, LHO joined the CAP and made an illegal effort to join the Marines. He then took a series of jobs working as office boy/courier, before being moved to Fort Worth where he wrote to the Socialist Party prior to successfully enlisting in the Marines. After boot camp, next stop, Radar School. Somehow this was achieved despite having a long history of media otitis with resultant hearing loss, as well as not declaring his previous attempt to enlist - among other possible anomalies in his enlistment.

* The political backdrop to all this was a new era of global (ie inclusive of the Soviet Bloc countries) cooperation on matters of science, technology, trade and culture brought about by the launch of Sputnik and the fear of Soviet dominance in space and war machines. This saw the rise of things like Trade Marts, student exchange programs, less travel restrictions, the International Geophysical Year etc etc. Among the movers and shakers of various facets of all this new-found cooperation were the likes of Percival Brundage (Ike's Director of the Bureau of the Budget, of whom there is more to follow in Pt 2), Frederick T Merrill, and a man who did groundbreaking work in radar development and who would later be on the Dallas Host Committee for JFK's visit to Nut Country.

* Ruth Paine became involved with the new agreement on student exchanges with the Soviets through the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers) and was the liaison with the State Dept where Frederick T Merrill had final say on the program. Merrill, at the same time, was the conduit for CIA money to emigre groups engaged in efforts to take back Eastern Europe.

* Around this same time-frame, Richard Snyder was acting as a spotter at Harvard for the Soviet-Russian Division within the Directorate of Plans of the CIA -- recruiting students from the Russian Research Center for potential travel to Russia as "Redskin" operatives. One such recruit was Edward L Keenan who went to Russia to study at the Leningrad University under the new Student Exchange agreement. Paying his way was CIA money filtered through a Ford Foundation Fellowship. In July '59, Snyder became First Consul at the US Embassy in Moscow. Keenan also arrived in the USSR that year - as would Lee Harvey Oswald. Redskin was designed to utilize "legal travelers" to Soviet Bloc countries to provide support for operations "Red Sox" & "Red Cap".

Part 2, will start by backing up to Oswald in the Marines.

Any study of Lee Harvey Oswald which ignores the monumental

work of John Armstrong (Harvey & Lee) is woefully lacking in

accuracy.

Jack