Z313 v. James Altgens

[Thomas H. Purvis]

No doubt, few who even visit here are that familiar with the reported controvesy which sometimes rages and sometimes sputters in regards to the conflict which exists between the location of the head entry wound of JFK as reported by the autopsy surgeons, and that entry wound location as reported by the HSCA investigation.

In a nutshell:

The autopsy surgeons claim that the wound of entry which they examined, entered the scalp of JFK at the lower edge of the hairline, and that the bullet traversed the soft flesh at the base of the neck, to enter the skull some 2.5cm (1-inch) to the right of and slightly above the EOP (external occipital protuberance) at the base of the skull.

In addition, they reported that the entry through the skull was some 15mm in length X 6mm in width.

Then comes the HSCA, which, based on examination of the autopsy X-rays, now determines that the entry into the back of the head of JFK, through the scalp as well as the skull, was in the cowlick area, some 10 cm (4-inches) higher in the skull than reported by the autopsy surgeons.

The HSCA additionally reported a completely different measurement for the entrance through the skull.

Now!

This is marginally only more difficult to figure out/resolve than is the 4mm X 7mm deformed base to CE399 and the 4mm X 7mm entry wound in the back/upper shoulder of JFK.

The HSCA drawing, although certainly closer than anything ever produced before, (it still is not totally accurate), is highly representative of the Z313/aka cowlick shot to the top of JFK's head.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HS...-head-7-125.jpg

[Thomas H. Purvis]

No doubt, few who even visit here are that familiar with the reported controvesy which sometimes rages and sometimes sputters in regards to the conflict which exists between the location of the head entry wound of JFK as reported by the autopsy surgeons, and that entry wound location as reported by the HSCA investigation.

In a nutshell:

The autopsy surgeons claim that the wound of entry which they examined, entered the scalp of JFK at the lower edge of the hairline, and that the bullet traversed the soft flesh at the base of the neck, to enter the skull some 2.5cm (1-inch) to the right of and slightly above the EOP (external occipital protuberance) at the base of the skull.

In addition, they reported that the entry through the skull was some 15mm in length X 6mm in width.

Then comes the HSCA, which, based on examination of the autopsy X-rays, now determines that the entry into the back of the head of JFK, through the scalp as well as the skull, was in the cowlick area, some 10 cm (4-inches) higher in the skull than reported by the autopsy surgeons.

The HSCA additionally reported a completely different measurement for the entrance through the skull.

Now!

This is marginally only more difficult to figure out/resolve than is the 4mm X 7mm deformed base to CE399 and the 4mm X 7mm entry wound in the back/upper shoulder of JFK.

The HSCA drawing, although certainly closer than anything ever produced before, (it still is not totally accurate), is highly representative of the Z313/aka cowlick shot to the top of JFK's head.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HS...-head-7-125.jpg

Here is the "nutshell" problem:

"A" represents the EOP

"B" represents the approximate location of the entry wound as observed by ALL THREE of the autopsy surgeons, as well as others present during the autopsy.

"C" represents the approximately bullet entrance into the scalp of JFK, at the bottom edge of the hairline and BELOW the level of the EOP.

Now! Assuming that:

1. Bullet entrance wounds through the scalp in living and/or deceased individuals do not move from down at the base of the skull in the edge of the hairline, up to the top back of the head.

2. Bullet entrance wounds throught he skull of living and/or deceased individuals do not move some 4-inches from a position on the lower back of the head to a position at the top rear back of the head.

3. JFK's body was not kidnapped and the wounds altered .(which is complete nonsense by someone who must have dreamed this up as a "Bar Bet".)

4. The autopsy surgeons were also correct in that there was bullet damage to the "tip" (upper edge) of the occipital lobe.

Then, me and Jethro Bodine got our heads together and figured out that in all probability, that we are in fact discussing two separate bullet entrance wounds to the back of the head of JFK.

And, since the great majority of the witness testimony indicates that three shots were fired, and we have the entrance wound of one of these bullets accounted for in the lower shoulder/upper back of JFK, then, most probably, we also have the other two bullet entrance wounds accounted for as well.

Especially considering that neither Jethro nor I were dumb enough to fall for "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" as expoused by the WC.

[Antti Hynonen]

Tom,

Ok, quite clear. How do you explain the origin of the shot versus the upward angle of the third bullet?

That is as it's path is from C to B, in your illustration, is clearly up, not down. Also when taking into account that the earlier shot to the head is clearly in a downward angle and was possibly, logically fired from the 6th floor TSBD. Additonally the wound to the back of JFK, would according to this scenario be in a downward angle, furthermore the JBC wound (near shoulder blade to nipple) would be a downward angle.

Why is the third one angled so differently?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

Ok, quite clear. How do you explain the origin of the shot versus the upward angle of the third bullet?

That is as it's path is from C to B, in your illustration, is clearly up, not down. Also when taking into account that the earlier shot to the head is clearly in a downward angle and was possibly, logically fired from the 6th floor TSBD. Additonally the wound to the back of JFK, would according to this scenario be in a downward angle, furthermore the JBC wound (near shoulder blade to nipple) would be a downward angle.

Why is the third one angled so differently?

"UP" is relative only when the head is held erect!

Otherwise, one must know the position of the head at the time of impact in order to determine UP vs. DOWN.

P.S. This is the WHY? of the elongagted wound of entry through the skull, why the bullet could strike the scalp lower than the EOP, yet enter the skull above the EOP, as well as why the bullet went through the coat at the edge of the collar, on such an oblique angle of penetration.

P.P.S. Forgot add that this is also how the bullet "tunneled" thorough the soft flesh at the base of the neck prior to striking the skull.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

Ok, quite clear. How do you explain the origin of the shot versus the upward angle of the third bullet?

That is as it's path is from C to B, in your illustration, is clearly up, not down. Also when taking into account that the earlier shot to the head is clearly in a downward angle and was possibly, logically fired from the 6th floor TSBD. Additonally the wound to the back of JFK, would according to this scenario be in a downward angle, furthermore the JBC wound (near shoulder blade to nipple) would be a downward angle.

Why is the third one angled so differently?

"UP" is relative only when the head is held erect!

Otherwise, one must know the position of the head at the time of impact in order to determine UP vs. DOWN.

P.S. This is the WHY? of the elongagted wound of entry through the skull, why the bullet could strike the scalp lower than the EOP, yet enter the skull above the EOP, as well as why the bullet went through the coat at the edge of the collar, on such an oblique angle of penetration.

P.P.S. Forgot add that this is also how the bullet "tunneled" thorough the soft flesh at the base of the neck prior to striking the skull.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HS...ounds-7-117.jpg

HSCA drawing modified (below)

"A" representes the "Cowlick" entry as determined by the HSCA medical panel

"B" representes the approximate location of the EOP entry as determined by the autopsy surgeons.

"C" representes the approximate "slanted" angle of entry as drawn by Dr. Bowswell on the autopsy face sheet.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Which becomes:

[Antti Hynonen]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 06:12 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 26 2007, 08:48 AM)

Tom,

Ok, quite clear. How do you explain the origin of the shot versus the upward angle of the third bullet?

That is as it's path is from C to B, in your illustration, is clearly up, not down. Also when taking into account that the earlier shot to the head is clearly in a downward angle and was possibly, logically fired from the 6th floor TSBD. Additonally the wound to the back of JFK, would according to this scenario be in a downward angle, furthermore the JBC wound (near shoulder blade to nipple) would be a downward angle.

Why is the third one angled so differently?

"UP" is relative only when the head is held erect!

Otherwise, one must know the position of the head at the time of impact in order to determine UP vs. DOWN.

P.S. This is the WHY? of the elongagted wound of entry through the skull, why the bullet could strike the scalp lower than the EOP, yet enter the skull above the EOP, as well as why the bullet went through the coat at the edge of the collar, on such an oblique angle of penetration.

P.P.S. Forgot add that this is also how the bullet "tunneled" thorough the soft flesh at the base of the neck prior to striking the skull.

Is there evidence of JFK's head being in the position at the time of the third shot, it seems to be a rather unnatural position?

[Miles Scull]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 06:12 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 26 2007, 08:48 AM)

Tom,

Ok, quite clear. How do you explain the origin of the shot versus the upward angle of the third bullet?

That is as it's path is from C to B, in your illustration, is clearly up, not down. Also when taking into account that the earlier shot to the head is clearly in a downward angle and was possibly, logically fired from the 6th floor TSBD. Additonally the wound to the back of JFK, would according to this scenario be in a downward angle, furthermore the JBC wound (near shoulder blade to nipple) would be a downward angle.

Why is the third one angled so differently?

"UP" is relative only when the head is held erect!

Otherwise, one must know the position of the head at the time of impact in order to determine UP vs. DOWN.

P.S. This is the WHY? of the elongagted wound of entry through the skull, why the bullet could strike the scalp lower than the EOP, yet enter the skull above the EOP, as well as why the bullet went through the coat at the edge of the collar, on such an oblique angle of penetration.

P.P.S. Forgot add that this is also how the bullet "tunneled" thorough the soft flesh at the base of the neck prior to striking the skull.

Is there evidence of JFK's head being in the position at the time of the third shot, it seems to be a rather unnatural position?

This shows an angle change, but seems to confirm a shot from the front.

Yes?

[Tim Gratz]

Miles, thanks for that.

It does seem to show a rather dramatic forward movement of JFK's head between Z312 and Z313 (as has of course been noted by others).

[Frank Agbat]

One thing that must be taken into account when considering Z313 is that it is one of the (many) z-frames that suffers from motion blurring.

Note the elongation of the bright-spot on JBC's forehead. Also note the elongation of the bright reflection spot on the seat (near the crosshatch that Miles added). This motion blurring adds some degree of uncertainty when attempting to ascertain and fix certain positions.

The crosshatches and lines seem to be "left aligned" from one frame to the next. But consider, for a moment, how the premise could change if the crosshatches and lines were placed at even the *midpoint* of the motion blur.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Gary;

To the benefit of some, I had prepared a "longwinded" reply which disappeared into cyberspace.

Nevertheless, information relative to the FBI 2/7/64 survey work and assassination re-enactment are quite scarce.

There is/was a newspaper article and other extremely limited reference to it which I have somewhere, but do not even know exactly where it is packed away.

Nevertheless, here are some Survey Notes in regards to it that have never been seen, and which also demonstrate that SS Agent John Joe Howlett was somehow involved.

Additionally, a full size copy of the FBI Survey Plat was provided to SS Agent Howlett.

These two portions of the FBI survey notes serve to indicate how the Z313 shot was moved back up Elm St. some 24.5 feet from the Z313/elevation 418.35 position.

Then, the next set of notes provides the survey stationing numbers for those impact locations which the FBI wanted plotted onto the 2/7/64 Survey Plat, and in fact, these are the station number locations for that plat which was introduced into evidence as CE585.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Attachment loading problems.

Here is the FBI stationing for the 2/7/64 work.

Just for clarification, I suppose that I should have also added:

Stationing 3+81 is the location of the first shot impact, which is slightly past mid-point of the Stemmons Sign.

Stationing 4+95 is that position which is down by James Altgens location.

These two stations are the exact same as is found on the SS Survey Plat of 12/5/63

The new stationing, 4+42 is where the FBI took the Z313 impact point at elevation 418.35, as determined by the US Secret Service (& which is only a foot + from the WC location at street elevation 413.48) and thereafter deleted this impact point and moved back up the street 24.5 feet, (which is prior to the limo having even passed the Moorman/Hill/yellow curb mark) and this is where the FBI was going to tell us that the second shot struck JBC.

Thereby totally deleting the Z313 impact shot.

So! Whoever thought up this idea, must not have ever seen the Z-film as it is quite obvious that the Z313 headshot could not be eliminated from the film.

So! This is primarily why no one has ever seen and/or heard of the FBI survey plat and survey re-enactment, as the FBI/aka JEH & Company was attempting to sell us a used car which had no motor or wheels.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Bill Miller]

Miles, thanks for that.

It does seem to show a rather dramatic forward movement of JFK's head between Z312 and Z313 (as has of course been noted by others).

Not only does it show the head moving forward for only 1/18th of a second, but the shoulder his driven rearward at the same time. The only way that I have ever had a medical person explain this away was that the bullet hit the top of JFK's head somewhere along the outer edge of the bone plate and the body absorbed the shock of the impact. With the President's head already bowed forward, the head then rocked forward as the shoulders went backward and this is why its only seen in one film frame. The frontal shot also explained the avulsion described to the back of the Kennedy's skull.

As far as the alleged hairline wound, I don't buy it for the simple reason that the X-ray of the alleged President's skull doesn't show a hole at the same location. That where ever the bullet would have entered the scalp - it also should have entered the same spot on the skull.

Bill Miller

[Tim Gratz]

Tom wrote:

as the FBI/aka JEH & Company was attempting to sell us a used car which had no motor or wheels.

Naah, they wouldn't do that to us. Would they?

[Antti Hynonen]

Antti Hynonen Posted Oct 27 2007, 12:35 PM

QUOTE

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 06:12 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 26 2007, 08:48 AM)

Tom,

Ok, quite clear. How do you explain the origin of the shot versus the upward angle of the third bullet?

That is as it's path is from C to B, in your illustration, is clearly up, not down. Also when taking into account that the earlier shot to the head is clearly in a downward angle and was possibly, logically fired from the 6th floor TSBD. Additonally the wound to the back of JFK, would according to this scenario be in a downward angle, furthermore the JBC wound (near shoulder blade to nipple) would be a downward angle.

Why is the third one angled so differently?

"UP" is relative only when the head is held erect!

Otherwise, one must know the position of the head at the time of impact in order to determine UP vs. DOWN.

P.S. This is the WHY? of the elongagted wound of entry through the skull, why the bullet could strike the scalp lower than the EOP, yet enter the skull above the EOP, as well as why the bullet went through the coat at the edge of the collar, on such an oblique angle of penetration.

P.P.S. Forgot add that this is also how the bullet "tunneled" thorough the soft flesh at the base of the neck prior to striking the skull.

Is there evidence of JFK's head being in the position at the time of the third shot, it seems to be a rather unnatural position?

Back to Tom's 3rd shot that hit the neck at the hairline and then the skull near the EOP, which occurred at the James Altgens location of the motorcade. Tom, the head's position at this time, as you demonstrated in a drawing posted prior, was showing that the head was in a very steep downward angle. I characterized it as a rather unnatural position (I say, unnatural even for a dying man). I also asked if there was any evidence, something like a still frame or a photo of this point in time that could verify this position?

It would be meaningful for all following this thread, to also have explained this third shot in full. I am particularly interested in the path of the bullet and a drawing or diagram showing the complete path of this bullet, from the back of the neck at the hairline of JFK to Connally's back, below the shoulderblade. The rest of the bullet's path (before striking JFK and after is exuited JBC's chest) is quite clear to me. Thanks.