The Carcanos of Dallas

[Accogli Claudio]

At last after the tests done by the Italian Army in Terni, the Lone shooter theory stated by the Warren Commission in 1964 revealed its inconsistency.

The possibility of a second gunner, more, was also the point which producted the controversial Hsca report on Jfk' death.

"On the basis of "acoustic evidence" provided by a Dallas Police Department Dictabelt tape, the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that there were at least four shots in Dealey Plaza, and that one of them came from the Grassy Knoll". http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/acoustic.htm

Later, the study was criticized and demonstrated "false", later on also these studies were criticized and so again.

In his work in which he "marries" the 1978 thesis, DB Thomas http://www.forensic-science-society.org.uk/Thomas.pdf , arrives at the conclusion that the shot fired from the grassy could have had a 748 m/s velocity (something different, but can't write such mathematic symbols).

so, he concludes the shot from the knoll could have been fired from a .30 cal, maybe a .30-30 Winchester.

This interferes with the findings of many panels, in 1964 and 1978. The fragments found in the limo were from a Carcano.

IN 1964 they could not establish from wich of the bullet (allegedly) fired from C2766.

Today, "Cliff Spiegleman NAAA and bullet fragment proof: This year researchers at Texas A&M University made world breaking news when they called into question critical evidence that has long supported the theory of a lone gunman in the 1963 assassination of United States President John F. Kennedy. One of the researchers that questioned the validity of the evidence was Cliff Spiegelman, professor of statistics at Texas A&M and an expert in bullet-lead analysis. His team conducted chemical and forensic analysis of bullets reportedly derived from the same batch as those used by suspected assassin Lee Harvey Oswald to gun down Kennedy on that fateful day at Dealey Plaza. Their findings show that evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed. In addition, their findings show the matching fragments could have come from three or more separate bullets and, therefore, more than one shooter". http://www.jfklancer.com/dallas07/speakers.html

Some points on Carcano 91/38 model.

This gun, based on the Carcano 1891 - which used some Mannlicher architecture, for It italian govt payed the royalties - was readopted in 1938 as a 7.35 caliber.

But, due to the lack of ammunitions, all the production was reconverted to 6.5

In 50' in the world market, you could find Carcano 7.35 cal: one part was the "italian" one, manly Moschetto del duce, a particular gun called TS 91, on the other side a "finnish" part.

Infact, a great part of the italian Carcano 7.35 were sold to Finland during the WWII (uhm.. Finland remembers me something about a certain Rubenstain ).

A Carcano 7.35 cal fires at 730m/s c.

A Carcano at 30mt, the distance from the grassy, is devastating.

So, one can think in 1963, in Dallas, there could be 2 Carcanos or more in action, to make it easier to later cover the traces of the different bullets and guns used.

The theory of the unicitity of the gun is not a dogma, and also, Mr. Frazier was wrong in his statements behind the WC and inducted the Commission to state something "not true" in the report.

More, Carcanos had a standard frangible bullet that not only remembers some "stories" of the so-called French Connection, but could itself "cover" its traces totally disintegrating.

And well, it could be interesting to go further on "why it was choosen a Carcano"... but this is another story.

[Ron Ecker]

I think Robert Morrow's claim is credible that he was instructed by the CIA's Tracy Barnes in July 1963 to buy four 7.35 Mannlicher Carcanos, and Barnes told him where he could buy them. Morrow bought them, modified them as instructed for quick dismantling and reassembling, and delivered three of them (one being defective) to David Ferrie.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Ron Ecker

[Christopher Hall]

I think Robert Morrow's claim is credible that he was instructed by the CIA's Tracy Barnes in July 1963 to buy four 7.35 Mannlicher Carcanos, and Barnes told him where he could buy them. Morrow bought them, modified them as instructed for quick dismantling and reassembling, and delivered three of them (one being defective) to David Ferrie.

I found his statement, about procuring the Carcanos, to be plausible.

I searched this site while recently reading Morrow's book and recalled seeing that it had been discredited, but I haven't found any specifics.

[Accogli Claudio]

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorrow.htm

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=22850 : note on page 2 the contract in early 1963..

Edited November 1, 2007 by Accogli Claudio

[Christopher Hall]

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorrow.htm

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=22850 : note on page 2 the contract in early 1963..

The Spartacus entry states that researchers have been highly critical of Morrow, but only mentions 2 examples.

The first is the neck wound Ferrie allegedly received during an exciting island airstrip escape. It states that the coroner who autopsied Ferrie noted no neck wounds. My concern about that, as a basis for contention, is the extent to which scar tissue may or may not have been present, depending on Ferrie's mending tendancies. Similarly, one has to assume that the coroner is correct and did not miss something. Maybe, or maybe not, I don't know. I have a few injuries which would be hard to detect, because they have healed so well.

The other criticism in Spartacus is that Morrow places Ruby in a pre-assassination conspiracy with Clay Shaw, which has hetetofore not been asserted. Morrow was not omnicient, and he could have had his facts wrong about this issue, if they are, in fact, wrong.

And the conspiracy to flood the Cuban currency with counterfeit $20's sounds a lot more like something the CIA would dream up than militant Cuban exiles.

Has anyone else read Morrow's book, First Hand Knowledge?

I am not saying I buy what Morrow is alleging, but he certainly writes convincingly and I have a hard time ignoring him.

And the problem with CIA denials is that they are so knee-jerk reflexive that almost anyone beats the CIA in a swearing contest, kind of like paper covers rock so to speak.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Christopher Hall

[John Bevilaqua]

I think Robert Morrow's claim is credible that he was instructed by the CIA's Tracy Barnes in July 1963 to buy four 7.35 Mannlicher Carcanos, and Barnes told him where he could buy them. Morrow bought them, modified them as instructed for quick dismantling and reassembling, and delivered three of them (one being defective) to David Ferrie.

How about all the other Morrow claims in Betrayal published by Henry Regnery Press which

were debunked in The Third Decade by that young guy from Canada? About the lack of

cigarette burn marks on Morrow's thighs as he claimed... About the lack of a public arrest

record for an incident which Morrow reported as occurring in Florida... and so on.

Do you accept Regnery's claims that The Holocaust was not as bad as some have said? Or

that it never occurred? Do you think that the Jews as a group or as an entity had anything

to do with the JFK hit?

[John Bevilaqua]

I think Robert Morrow's claim is credible that he was instructed by the CIA's Tracy Barnes in July 1963 to buy four 7.35 Mannlicher Carcanos, and Barnes told him where he could buy them. Morrow bought them, modified them as instructed for quick dismantling and reassembling, and delivered three of them (one being defective) to David Ferrie.

I found his statement, about procuring the Carcanos, to be plausible.

I searched this site while recently reading Morrow's book and recalled seeing that it had been discredited, but I haven't found any specifics.

Debunked, destroyed and devastated. See if The Fourth Decade still has the article debunking him

on the Mary Ferrell site.

[Ron Ecker]

Do you accept Regnery's claims that The Holocaust was not as bad as some have said? Or

that it never occurred? Do you think that the Jews as a group or as an entity had anything

to do with the JFK hit?

What the hell kind of questions is that? If I say I find Morrow plausible on the Carcanos, that makes me an anti-Semite or Holocaust denier? What the hell is it with you?

[Accogli Claudio]

Let's go back on the topic - that is not Morrow: an ideological/religious approach to the Jfk case is just a way not-to-see things in the correct light - IMO.

Ulric Shannon, in the 4th decade debunked the book of Morrow but wrote:

"The only kind of confirmation I have come across for any of Morrow's claims is the fact, cited by Dick Russell and Gus Russo, that an employee at Baltimore's Campbell Company airstrip claims to remember a strange fellow (whom Morrow says was Farrie) coming to Baltimore in a Tri-Pacer in August, 1963 and picking up weapons, ostensibly those used in the assassination. Yet Ferrie's own airplane was not a TriPacer, but a Stinson 150 that had not been airworthy since April, 1962".

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/morrow.htm or http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=519226

Actually, on maryferrell (in a very rapid search) I found only one plane - allegedly a Tri-Pacer - in the file on Alexander Rorke

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=98 and the raids on Cuba in April 1963, and some more on Hemmings didnt check.

What I think is important in the thesis of a second shooter in Dealey Plaza with a Carcano firing from the Grassy Knoll a frangible bullet

(also with a 7.35 if one wants to consider "scientific" the studies on the dictabelt), is that -actually- such possibility is totally compatible with the autopsy results and in great part with the ballistic results (also with those voluntary "messed" by mr. Frazier in 1964).

A frangible bullet, obviusly and generally, does not cause/product an exit hole. In the body, you will find just micro-fragments.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Accogli Claudio

[Ron Ecker]

It would make sense that other shooters would use the same kind of rifle as the patsy, but only if the patsy was to be set up as a lone nut, or if a lone nut was Plan B. All bullets or fragments would have to be from the "same rifle."

If a frangible bullet was fired from the knoll, and a frangible bullet doesn't produce exit wounds, then clearly there was another shot from the front, the one that blew out the back of JFK's head. Why use two different types of bullets from the front?

[Christopher Hall]

Let's go back on the topic - that is not Morrow: an ideological/religious approach to the Jfk case is just a way not-to-see things in the correct light - IMO.

Ulric Shannon, in the 4th decade debunked the book of Morrow but wrote:

"The only kind of confirmation I have come across for any of Morrow's claims is the fact, cited by Dick Russell and Gus Russo, that an employee at Baltimore's Campbell Company airstrip claims to remember a strange fellow (whom Morrow says was Farrie) coming to Baltimore in a Tri-Pacer in August, 1963 and picking up weapons, ostensibly those used in the assassination. Yet Ferrie's own airplane was not a TriPacer, but a Stinson 150 that had not been airworthy since April, 1962".

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/morrow.htm or http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=519226

Actually, on maryferrell (in a very rapid search) I found only one plane - allegedly a Tri-Pacer - in the file on Alexander Rorke

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=98 and the raids on Cuba in April 1963, and some more on Hemmings didnt check.

What I think is important in the thesis of a second shooter in Dealey Plaza with a Carcano firing from the Grassy Knoll a frangible bullet

(also with a 7.35 if one wants to consider "scientific" the studies on the dictabelt), is that -actually- such possibility is totally compatible with the autopsy results and in great part with the ballistic results (also with those voluntary "messed" by mr. Frazier in 1964).

A frangible bullet, obviusly and generally, does not cause/product an exit hole. In the body, you will find just micro-fragments.

I don't know what (or how many) planes Ferrie had at his disposal at the time.

I don't know much about frangible rifle or pistol bullets, other than observing them in gun stores and at gun shows, but the shot which rocked JFK's head back and sent his skull and brains flying looked like a shotgun blast at a watermelon.

I don't have a Carcano, but I think that I will pick up some frangible ammo (we call them shotshells) and see what they do to a few types of targets.

[Accogli Claudio]

"normally" a frangibile disintegrates.

On scientific bases there are several numbers of combinations and possibilities.

The bullet of a Carcano is called "humanitarian": it means has a stable trajectory.

But, you don't need to be an expert to alter this stability.

The frangible bullet is a particular one with a camera inside, full of micro-balls.

Cutting a standard bullet at the head can create a similar phenomenon (and also others, it depends how you cut it).

At Terni, we noticed that a "rotating" bullet (not-stable) impacting a target at 30mt. (at 660 m/s) creates a very large entry hole and a very small exit one - not linear.

Firing too many of these bullets could have discovered the other shooters and destroyed the Lone shooter story.

[Accogli Claudio]

this is the composition of a frangible ordinary Carcano bullet:

a box in Maillechort*, in which is inserted another cylinder of alluminium with inside many little bullets of lead a bit compressed closed at the head with a little ogive of "antimonioso" (antimonium) lead.

*should be metal alloy of copper, zinc and nickel

[Christopher Hall]

this is the composition of a frangible ordinary Carcano bullet:

a box in Maillechort*, in which is inserted another cylinder of alluminium with inside many little bullets of lead a bit compressed closed at the head with a little ogive of "antimonioso" (antimonium) lead.

*should be metal alloy of copper, zinc and nickel

I wonder how available frangible Carcano ammo is today.

I will try to find some on a few guns and ammo auction sites.

Old battle rifles can be a beast to shoot, but, nonetheless, enjoyable if you are hitting the target.