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You Can Talk the Talk But Can You Walk the Walk?


Tim Gratz
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John B may not like it, but it is clear that no TRUE member of the "religious right" can be an anti-Semite (unless he or she is a hypocrite!)>

For any true member of the religious right believes that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and that God keeps his promises.

See check out Genesis 12:3. And see also Psalm 122:6.

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John B may not like it, but it is clear that no TRUE member of the "religious right" can be an anti-Semite (unless he or she is a hypocrite!)>

For any true member of the religious right believes that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and that God keeps his promises.

See check out Genesis 12:3. And see also Psalm 122:6.

For any true member of the religious right believes that the Bible is the infallible Word of God

In that, there would appear to be the need for some clarification.

The "Religious Right" (irrelevant as to whether believers in God; Mohammed; etc:) are those who generally wish to impose upon others what THEIR interpretation of religious doctrine states.

If recalled correctly, the entire (Roman) Catholic Church once participated in such activities. It was called the Inquisition

A "True" Southern Baptist will inform you that my children have never been baptized (head underwater), as the Presbyterian Church recognizes this as symbolism and only sprinkles water onto one.

(Actually, I have been informed that my children will go to Hell due to this failure to comply with "The Bible"!)

Just as a "True" Seventh Day Adventist will tell one that they are going to Hell for attending church on Sunday, and a "True" follower of the Morman Religion will state that it is "God's Will" that they have multiple wives.

So, in the world of religious claims, at exactly what point does one cross into the realm of "Far Right"?

Especially when those who are already there are of the opinion that they are in fact the correct ones?

Religious Right is one thing!

Fanatical Right is by far another, and often has no bearing on true religious beliefs.

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All well and good, folks...but unless you can tie this into the JFK assassination, on more than a guilt-by-association level, this seems to be an irrelevant thread.

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With all due respect, Tim, what you are presenting here is info from the Zionist position. While it is significant to the history of the Middle East and Israel, it does not define the entire situation. Imperialist powers have made decisions for Palestine-Israel. The citizens of that area have been left out of the process. As a result, there has been unbearable tension and hostility as both Palestinians and Israeli's clamor for the same land.

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John B may not like it, but it is clear that no TRUE member of the "religious right" can be an anti-Semite (unless he or she is a hypocrite!)>

For any true member of the religious right believes that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and that God keeps his promises.

See check out Genesis 12:3. And see also Psalm 122:6.

Again with the circular reasoning, Timmy.

Rev. Gerald L K Smith is cut from the Religious cloth and was a recognized Baptist Minister for years.

He has made numerous anti Semitic and pro Nazi statements which are considered very Right Wing by all.

Therefore he can no longer be considered a true member of the Religious Right because it violates God's Laws.

So you are going to have him defrocked or debunked or recategorized just so he won't fall into your neat positions?

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John B,

The Bible states there are many who call themselves Christians but who are not.

IMO, any person who would persecute (or worse) those of another race, religion, color or even sexual orientation does not deserve to be called Christians and will be in for a surprise when he or she meets his or her maker. One does not determine if one is a Christian by his or her raising hands or singing or emotionalism but rather whether he or she follows the Commandments of God, one of which is to love your neighbor as you do yourself.

And Thomas is wrong. Christian fundamentalism is far different from Islamic fundamentalism. As most should know from high school history, the Pilmgrims came to this country to escape religious persecution and permit religious liberty. That is why the Bill of Rights prohibits the establishment of a state religion.

Which is not to say that people calling themselves Christian have not in fact committed grave sins throughout history, As I said in another thread, Rev Hagee has called upon Christians to apologize to the Jewish people for such horrors as the Inquisition, "Christian" participation in the Holocaust, etc. Fortunately, times have changed. Today Christian missionaries attempt to proselytize through the teaching of the Word of God. I just attended a church service with missionaries from an organization called Wycliffe whose objective is to translate the Bible into the native language of every tribe. They pointed out that there are tribes who have language but no printed word and as Wycliffe creates a written word for them their lives are improved (as would be expected) by the literacy itself. Moreover, the introduction of "liberal Christian values" often serves to escalate the position of women.

I have no idea if you are Jewish yourself or if it is simply that your moral sensibilities are offended by anti-Semitism. But as an educated person, you should understand that while you no doubt differ with many of the positions of the religious right, on the important position of defeating anti-Semitism and protecting the Jewish people in the State of Isreal, your staunchest allies are members of the organization founded by Rev Hagee. Just as the "religious right" should respect your condemnation of the ugliness of anti-Semitism.

So I agree with much of what you say about the Pioneer Fund but IMO it had nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination.

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your staunchest allies are members of the organization founded by Rev Hagee.

I'd prefer to not have someone like Rev. Hagee and his ilk as my personal allies, thanks.

Considering he and his pals believe in the Rapture and that everyone "left behind" will be subjected to all kinds of torture and pain--and that includes Jews who don't accept Christ. Yeah, those people who are supposedly supportive of Israel also think that the Jews, despite their "chosen" status, will still burn in hell if they don't repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah. That's real supportive!

But really, what does this have to do with President Kennedy's assassination, anyway?

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Courtney, we need not get in to the theological discussion now because you are certainly correct that all of John B's rants (perhaps too strong a word) have little if anything to do with the Kennedy assassination. He seems to want to keep posting about Nazis and anti-Semitism and bigotry and IMO it becomes redundant.

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But really, what does this have to do with President Kennedy's assassination, anyway?

Ironically, there is a connection. As you have perceived, Tim's position is that of the Zionists. Whatever Israel does is fine with them. Whomever the Israeli's have to push aside is fine with them. They are swept up in a rapturous zeal and have no other interests but Isreal.

President Kennedy, on the other hand, was not a Zionist. He managed to look at the situation in the Middle East objectively. He wanted fair treatment for the Palestinians as well as for the Israelis. He saw the whole picture.

In addition, his father was a known Hitler appeaser who, as Ambassador to the Court of St James, encouraged England to do whatever was necessary to avoid going to war with Germany. So, whatever JFK may have done for Israel, it was likely not to have been enough.

Lastly, JFK made enemies out of those who were pushing Israel's nuclear program by attempting to insist on inspections of the new power plant, Dimona, in the Negev desert. Dimona went live at about the same time JFK was killed.

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Well, to show that I do not just rise to the defense of Republicans:

Moyers IMO is a hypocrite who circulated as I recall information (about Martin Luther King. Jr.?) from illegal wiretaps and no doubt assisted LBJ in the cover-up. I have no use for his politics and his holier-than-thou hypocricy.

But to suggest he was a conspirator is just wacky. Or do you have any EVIDENCE suggesting he was? Assassination researchers usually need no "evidence" before besmirching the reputation of innocent people but be careful, Daniel, Moyers is still alive so he has the ability to sue.

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Daniel wrote:

. . .[T]here was a recent episode of Bill Moyers' Journal which looked at the Christian Zionist movement.....

The response of the Exeecutive Director of "Christians United For Isreal" (who is a Harvard-educated attorney) to the Moyers' story which he characterizes as "slander":

When I first moved to Washington to work in government, I was given some advice about the press. Journalists, I was warned, are lazy. If they have a choice between regurgitating the conventional wisdom or doing hours of original research, the regurgitation will typically win out. In over a dozen years in Washington, I've found this advice to be too often true.

Sadly, such journalistic laziness was on parade Friday night when PBS aired a Bill Moyers Journal story about Christians United for Israel. Moyers' show was a long and loud regurgitation of the current conventional wisdom about Christian Zionism. According to Moyers and his guests, Pastor Hagee and the members of Christians United for Israel support the Jewish State merely to speed Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus. What seems on the surface like love for our ally Israel is, they assert, merely a nefarious plot to kill and convert the Jews at the End of Days.

I welcome the criticism of all who disagree with CUFI's policies. We're not perfect, and I'm certain that in our zeal to defend Israel we'll make mistakes. But to skip past these policy differences and claim that CUFI's motive is not to defend Israel but to destroy her is an evasion of a rational discourse. When the conventional wisdom is so horribly mistaken, repeating it like this amounts to slander, pure and simple.

Most of you reading this -- those of you who are Christian Zionists -- know why you support Israel and know that your support has nothing to do with End Times theology. In fact, those of you now being exposed to this slander for the first time are no doubt shocked to learn about your "real motives" for supporting Israel.

But since all of us must operate in a world which so often misunderstands us, it's important that we be able to explain to our critics the flaws in their analysis. This necessitates clarifying a basic principle of logic -- the difference between a belief and a motive. While we may have many beliefs about a particular subject, not all of these beliefs actually motivate our actions in relation to this subject. For example, I believe that red meat is bad for me. Yet I eat a lot of steak. Clearly this particular belief about red meat does not motivate my steak consumption. Quite to the contrary.

Do evangelical Christians believe that there is a connection between the State of Israel and the Second Coming of Jesus? They absolutely and enthusiastically do. Most evangelicals believe that Israel's rebirth and the ingathering of the Jewish exiles is nothing less than a Sign of the Times -- a sign that the Second Coming and the End of Days may be drawing near. These beliefs are hardly a secret; Pastor Hagee and others have written extensively about them.

But does this End Times belief happen to be the motive behind evangelical support for Israel? In other words, do evangelicals support Israel to try to speed up the end of the world? Absolutely not.

First of all, Christian theology is crystal clear about the fact that humans are powerless to speed up the End of Days. The Bible states unequivocally that God has set the day and hour for his Second Coming and that man is powerless to alter this appointed hour by so much as a nanosecond. Thus the very theology which nurtures evangelical beliefs about Armageddon eliminates any possibility that such beliefs will motivate evangelicals to seek to spark Armageddon.

Secondly, Christians have a set of compelling motives for supporting Israel that have nothing whatsoever to do with the End Times. Christian Zionists fervently believe in the biblical promises of Genesis, especially that they will be blessed if they bless Israel (Genesis 12:3). Christian Zionists believe that Jewish history dramatically demonstrates the need for a Jewish homeland. And Christian supporters of Israel believe that Israel's modern history clearly establishes the justice of her cause.

Why do Christians support Israel? It turns out they do so for a set of motives that are almost identical to the motives behind Jewish support for Israel.

Such slanders of evangelical Christians are hardly new. During the Cold War, liberal critics claimed that Jerry Falwell and other Christian conservatives supported Ronald Reagan's defense build up because they wanted to start a nuclear war with the Soviet Union that would usher in Armageddon. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see just how ridiculous this accusation was. Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority supported President Reagan's defense build up because like President Reagan they believed that this policy was the best way to keep the peace. History has vindicated their approach to the Cold War. And history will vindicate CUFI's approach to Israel's troubles in the Middle East.

We always knew that this day would come. We always knew that as we grew more powerful our critics would grow more strident. And here we are. While the barbs may sting, we can actually take encouragement from them. So let's go forward in the knowledge that our influence is growing and our work is paying off. Let us at all times be quick to listen to every reasonable critique of our work. And let us see the slanders as nothing more than mirrors reflecting our rapidly growing strength.

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Daniel wrote:

I would like to point out that the only "people who are REALLY fighting for the State of Israel" are members of the IDF.

Daniel, as you well know, "fighting" is often used in a figurative sense. If I posted that Christians United For Israel were "fighting" for the continued existence of Isreal did you REALLY think I meant that their membership had traveled to the Middle East to take up arms? As you know, Isreal's continued existence is probably only guaranteed by its continued protection by the United States. Which is one of the reasons the terrorists hate us.

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Tim:

Isn't your boy Hagee a tad confused, or did you just manage to miss this?

And before you respond I am simply posting this, not getting itno a conversation here.

Dawn

John Hagee Claims That Jesus Christ Was Not The Messiah

Posted by healtheland on October 27th, 2007

Hagee’s transformation from legitimate evangelical preacher to endtimes charlatan to political powerbroker espousing right wing dual covenant theology to Noachide Gentile is complete. That is him. My question is why do people continue to sit in this fellow’s church, and why haven’t other major preachers started denouncing him. As a matter of fact, as I have stated earlier, Hagee remains a trustee at Oral Roberts University. Is the great apostasy, the great falling away, underway yet? I say not yet. But the seeds for it are being sown.

Update: I have cut and pasted the information from the article below, because it appears that most are not clicking on the link:

“I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit—I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. (Romans 9:1-4)

Do We Believe Hagee Or Do We Believe God?

In the video clip below you will hear for yourself John Hagee say his book In Defense Of Israel “will shake Christian theology.” And further that, “it Scripturally proves…that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah… It will prove…Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the Messiah…”

However, God the Holy Spirit informs us in John’s eyewitness deposition we call the Gospel of John – The woman said, “I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I Who speak to you am He” (John 4:25-26).

So whose testimony are you going to believe? Hagee or God. The Truth is that Dr. John MacArthur is correct when he says, “An individual Jew today is saved like anybody else is, by faith in Christ. And, apart from that, there is no salvation.” (Online source)

Sola Dei Gloria also weighs in on this blatant heresy of Hagee here.“

apprising.org/archives/2007/10/john_hagee_says.html

This entry was posted on Saturday, October 27th, 2007 at 11:14 am and is filed under Christianity, John Hagee, false doctrine, false preacher, false teachers, false teaching. . You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your

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