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Ashton Gray
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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

In recent months it has been turned over to disinformation scum who dump wholly irrelevant and unanalyzed garbage into it by the truckload—which not only is condoned by the administrators, but actually has been endorsed by John Simkin.

I've recently posted two parody posts in just two of the insanely off-topic and irrelevant threads that John Bevilaqua started for no other purpose except to provide a stage where he and Tim Gratz can absolutely flood the forum with this wholesale useless trash and keep their phony Punch 'n' Judy show going to drown out as much rationality as possible with demented off-topic noise. Those parody posts of mine soon will be deleted as the first of my posts in this forum to be deleted. The rest of my contributions over the past year and a half to this forum have been graciously archived by several people, and also will incrementally be deleted over time as they are reposted elsewhere in locations where reasonable and rational people maintain order and provide a safe environment for dissemination and reasoned discussion of relevant facts and truth.

While I have the greatest of admiration for what Simkin and Walker set out to do with the establishment of these forums, and while I owe a debt of gratitude to both for allowing me to present in these forums the evidence and work so hard won, I no longer wish to have my works associated with what this forum now has been converted to.

I am deeply indebted to several members of this forum for their tireless dedication to getting at the truth and the rational discussion and analysis of facts, and it has been a supreme honor to have had a chance to meet you and correspond with you. I have learned much from you. I expect you will be apprised in some way when my works are reposted elsewhere. You will be welcomed there, and I always welcome personal communication from you, which you can access with PMs through this forum until and unless Simkin or Walker elect to cancel my membership here.

Ashton Gray

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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

In recent months it has been turned over to disinformation scum who dump wholly irrelevant and unanalyzed garbage into it by the truckload—which not only is condoned by the administrators, but actually has been endorsed by John Simkin.

I've recently posted two parody posts in just two of the insanely off-topic and irrelevant threads that John Bevilaqua started for no other purpose except to provide a stage where he and Tim Gratz can absolutely flood the forum with this wholesale useless trash and keep their phony Punch 'n' Judy show going to drown out as much rationality as possible with demented off-topic noise. Those parody posts of mine soon will be deleted as the first of my posts in this forum to be deleted. The rest of my contributions over the past year and a half to this forum have been graciously archived by several people, and also will incrementally be deleted over time as they are reposted elsewhere in locations where reasonable and rational people maintain order and provide a safe environment for dissemination and reasoned discussion of relevant facts and truth.

While I have the greatest of admiration for what Simkin and Walker set out to do with the establishment of these forums, and while I owe a debt of gratitude to both for allowing me to present in these forums the evidence and work so hard won, I no longer wish to have my works associated with what this forum now has been converted to.

I am deeply indebted to several members of this forum for their tireless dedication to getting at the truth and the rational discussion and analysis of facts, and it has been a supreme honor to have had a chance to meet you and correspond with you. I have learned much from you. I expect you will be apprised in some way when my works are reposted elsewhere. You will be welcomed there, and I always welcome personal communication from you, which you can access with PMs through this forum until and unless Simkin or Walker elect to cancel my membership here.

Ashton Gray

Good riddance, I say, to bad rubbish.

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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

In recent months it has been turned over to disinformation scum who dump wholly irrelevant and unanalyzed garbage into it by the truckload—which not only is condoned by the administrators, but actually has been endorsed by John Simkin.

I've recently posted two parody posts in just two of the insanely off-topic and irrelevant threads that John Bevilaqua started for no other purpose except to provide a stage where he and Tim Gratz can absolutely flood the forum with this wholesale useless trash and keep their phony Punch 'n' Judy show going to drown out as much rationality as possible with demented off-topic noise. Those parody posts of mine soon will be deleted as the first of my posts in this forum to be deleted. The rest of my contributions over the past year and a half to this forum have been graciously archived by several people, and also will incrementally be deleted over time as they are reposted elsewhere in locations where reasonable and rational people maintain order and provide a safe environment for dissemination and reasoned discussion of relevant facts and truth.

While I have the greatest of admiration for what Simkin and Walker set out to do with the establishment of these forums, and while I owe a debt of gratitude to both for allowing me to present in these forums the evidence and work so hard won, I no longer wish to have my works associated with what this forum now has been converted to.

I am deeply indebted to several members of this forum for their tireless dedication to getting at the truth and the rational discussion and analysis of facts, and it has been a supreme honor to have had a chance to meet you and correspond with you. I have learned much from you. I expect you will be apprised in some way when my works are reposted elsewhere. You will be welcomed there, and I always welcome personal communication from you, which you can access with PMs through this forum until and unless Simkin or Walker elect to cancel my membership here.

Ashton Gray

Another real JFK researcher leaving the forum because of Bevilaqua!! And his anti fascist rantings. How many more.

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Another real JFK researcher leaving the forum because of Bevilaqua!! And his anti fascist rantings. How many more.

You seem to have forgotten that Ashton also gave Tim Gratz as one of the reasons why he is leaving. Yet the other day you posted claiming that he should be allowed to stay.

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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

Still is.

Ashton, I didn't get into it with you over the throat thing because we have bigger

fish to fry.

I think "the Timeline" is the most important work being done. Everything

else is Parlor Gaming.

Please continue with your Timeline work on the Forum.

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Ashton:

As you know I totally disagree with your "no- shot -from- the- front" thesis. That said, you know I believe other work you were doing here, particularily on the black ops thread, as well as the timeline, was extremely important.

I have always advocated just ignoring Gratz. (When that fails- read and re-read Charles Drago's most recent post on the black ops thread. Humor helps.)

As for John B, and his tactics, many views were posted last weekend, then the thread was removed.

Is this place "evolving"?

Dawn

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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

Still is.

Ashton, I didn't get into it with you over the throat thing because we have bigger

fish to fry.

I think "the Timeline" is the most important work being done. Everything

else is Parlor Gaming.

Please continue with your Timeline work on the Forum.

Can you please point me to "the Timeline" work you're referring to Cliff?

Thanks.

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Ashton,

I think your one of the most interesting people on here & seriously love the way you express yourself.

I too, hope you stay & keep your posts available to future students.

Maybe if we had seperate sub-forums for the different areas of research/discussion we would see less "spam"?

I don't know.

Stay anyway.

Alan

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Mr. Gray,

New to the posting end of this forum, but have been a reader for sometime. I am also relatively new to the research. While I admire the work of several here on the forum, your posts are most enjoyable to me. I can not honestly say I agree with all you propose, but none the less, the work you do is amazing, dedicated, and served with conviction, and that says a lot. I ask you to reconsider your position, and not let the irritants cause you to leave when there are far more here that find high value in your views and opinions. Find humor in the irrational Mr. Gray, and life becomes far more bearable. In the words of Sun Tzu "The patient warrior who waits by the stream will soon see the bodies of his enemies float by."

Semper Fi,

Mike Williams

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While I have the greatest of admiration for what Simkin and Walker set out to do with the establishment of these forums, and while I owe a debt of gratitude to both for allowing me to present in these forums the evidence and work so hard won,"
"

Really. I would assume that if this statement were valid, that attempts would be made by you, (and certainly you could have enlisted a few of your friends) to PM John Simkin privately and voice your discontent. If this has been done, allow me to apologize for not thinking you did so.

My problem here is that you refer to the Forum as a garbage dump--and you publish it so it can be seen by everyone. While you are certainly entitled to do so, (as you can see, your thread, which includes the Garbage Dump subtitle , is still intact), I cannot believe for a moment that if you thought so highly of him, you would place this subject as a thread, instead of creating a private discussion.

Mr. Simkin recently had asked all of us how we felt about him, because he had received some negative feedback from another member. It was then, when reading what he said, you (if you read it) should have realized that he is very deeply concerned about what the forum members think, so much so that he was willing to step down. I don't know about you, but that says alot to me.

I realize that many people think that your research is important, and that is good. If I were doing well researching, and everything was coming together, I don't think I'd care much what was going on in another thread.

Now, I will side with you on the fact that it gets mighty boring looking at the same names (and there are more that the two you mentioned starting threads all the time.)That, however, does not allow me, in good conscience, to publicly flog the Forum and in doing so, the Administrators,and consider it by any stretch of the imagination, justifiable. Perhaps there is truth in what you say, but it is certainly lost in how you say it.

Kathy

Edited by Kathy Beckett
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Ashton- I've always enjoyed reading your posts. I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but you have an entertaining way of expressing yourself.

That being said, I find these kinds of dramatic forum exits to be totally ridiculous. You see this all the time on internet forums, whether the subject is politics, superheroes or sports; a veteran poster suddenly announces that he is reluctantly leaving the forum. Without fail, this is followed by a series of posts begging the good poster to please reconsider and stay.

I think that Bevilaqua's posts are rambling and full of vitriol that turns off a lot of people. I also realize that both he and Gratz are starting up a great number of threads. I probably agree with Tim less than I do with John B., but at least he is civil to everyone and argues his points intelligently. There is nothing to stop you from ignoring them or replying and showing them the error of their ways. That being said, it's not my call to ban someone and I would almost never support that. Imho, John Simkin is a very patient man who is providing us with a marvelous forum in which to rant, rave and pontificate about a variety of issues.

On the belief that this forum is going down the tubes, while others are still providing something of value, exactly what other forums are you referring to? Just curious.

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Don, John B's posts are certainly filled with vitriol.

IMO some people such as John B, Mr Gray and Mr Kelly do not like it when I question their posts or ask them to verify their factual assertions. I think they simply want a Forum to post thir theories without any challenge to them.

I do not mean to pat myself on the back here but contrast my exchanges with Robert Charles-Dunne. Even though he is often sarcastic and sometimes even condescending, his writing is often so clever and humorous that even I enjoy it though I am the target of his sarcasm. Moreover, he challenges me to support MY posts with facts (we are now enngaged in a somehat arcane discussion of whether Judy Eisenhower was Barry Goldwater's chief of staff or merely his top administarive assistant). I think accurate facts are important to the discussion (there are too many myths and misstatements circulating about the case) and the best way to get the truth out is through this give and take.

If I was wrong about Mrs. Eisenhower's position, it is to Mr. Charles-Dunne's credit that he caught my error and he desres kudos not condemnation for it. If on the other hand the facts should bear out my position, I have the confidence that he has the intellectual integrity that he will admit I was right. In either event, with respect to the debate going on in that thread, it is important to pin down when Mrs. Esisenhower started working for BG and in what capacity. If I was wrong and had Mr., Charles-Dunne not challenged me on it, my error would have gone undetected.

I think any one wanting the truth to come out should be pleased to respond to a challenge to their facts. It is of utmost importance we get our facts correct. For example, we do not want to quote Marrs that LHO had to run down five flights of stairs when it is self-evident it was only four. ("We hold this truth to be self-evident: that six minus two is four.")

With respect to the interpretation of the facts, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and the reader can assess the logic of the opinion or inference as well as how accurately it reflects the established facts.

IMO a spirited debate is what makes the Forum both educational and enjoyable. It is not so when it deteriorates into childish name-calling.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Tim,

You have a tough opponent in Robert Charles-Dunne. I remember him well from his days as a regular poster for the JFK Research Forum, back in the late 1990s. I wish he posted more here; he is always intelligent and presents his arguments very well.

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