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Ashton Gray
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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

Still is.

Ashton, I didn't get into it with you over the throat thing because we have bigger

fish to fry.

I think "the Timeline" is the most important work being done. Everything

else is Parlor Gaming.

Please continue with your Timeline work on the Forum.

Can you please point me to "the Timeline" work you're referring to Cliff?

Thanks.

Myra,

The "Black Propaganda Ops" thread is very interesting.

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Ashton- I've always enjoyed reading your posts. I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but you have an entertaining way of expressing yourself.

That being said, I find these kinds of dramatic forum exits to be totally ridiculous. You see this all the time on internet forums, whether the subject is politics, superheroes or sports; a veteran poster suddenly announces that he is reluctantly leaving the forum. Without fail, this is followed by a series of posts begging the good poster to please reconsider and stay.

I think that Bevilaqua's posts are rambling and full of vitriol that turns off a lot of people. I also realize that both he and Gratz are starting up a great number of threads. I probably agree with Tim less than I do with John B., but at least he is civil to everyone and argues his points intelligently. There is nothing to stop you from ignoring them or replying and showing them the error of their ways. That being said, it's not my call to ban someone and I would almost never support that. Imho, John Simkin is a very patient man who is providing us with a marvelous forum in which to rant, rave and pontificate about a variety of issues.

On the belief that this forum is going down the tubes, while others are still providing something of value, exactly what other forums are you referring to? Just curious.

Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. Usually they name Tim Gratz but recently John Bevilaqua has become a figure they want removed. Despite these threats they rarely do leave. The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reasons. They use the forum to promote their views, their website or their latest book. This forum, unlike a lot on the web, gets a large number of page impressions. This forum provides you with a significant audience. People are keen to read what we have to say. They are even interested in our arguments. Some people treat this forum as a kind of soap opera. Sure, members sometimes go off in a sulk and stop posting for a couple of weeks. In reality, they are addicted to this forum and cannot give it up. When Ashton's next book is out I am sure he will back on the forum promoting it.

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I just went through who started the threads in the most recent five pages of the Forum. The multiple starters in order of multiplicity are:

JB: 21

JD: 9

TG: 7

WK: 4

JB's 21 represents fully 39%. of the threads started on those pages. Mine represent 13%.

FWIW.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Guest Gary Loughran
I just went through who started the threads in the most recent five pages of the Forum. The multiple starters in order of multiplicity are:

JB: 21

JD: 9

TG: 7

WK: 4

JB's 21 represents fully 39%. of the threads started on those pages. Mine represent 13%.

FWIW.

And as I'm looking at Page one Tim, you have 7 last posts of the 11 topics listed. Which represents too much %.

Check out the posts per day of yourself and John B and factor in your hiatus. It's all too much.

You both have a knack for bumping good stuff (IMO) off the front page, only at different times of the day.

This is an education forum not an instant messaging or wikipedia copy and paste service.

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Don, John B's posts are certainly filled with vitriol.

IMO some people such as John B, Mr Gray and Mr Kelly do not like it when I question their posts or ask them to verify their factual assertions. I think they simply want a Forum to post thir theories without any challenge to them.

I do not mean to pat myself on the back here but contrast my exchanges with Robert Charles-Dunne. Even though he is often sarcastic and sometimes even condescending, his writing is often so clever and humorous that even I enjoy it though I am the target of his sarcasm. Moreover, he challenges me to support MY posts with facts (we are now enngaged in a somehat arcane discussion of whether Judy Eisenhower was Barry Goldwater's chief of staff or merely his top administarive assistant). I think accurate facts are important to the discussion (there are too many myths and misstatements circulating about the case) and the best way to get the truth out is through this give and take.

If I was wrong about Mrs. Eisenhower's position, it is to Mr. Charles-Dunne's credit that he caught my error and he desres kudos not condemnation for it. If on the other hand the facts should bear out my position, I have the confidence that he has the intellectual integrity that he will admit I was right. In either event, with respect to the debate going on in that thread, it is important to pin down when Mrs. Esisenhower started working for BG and in what capacity. If I was wrong and had Mr., Charles-Dunne not challenged me on it, my error would have gone undetected.

I think any one wanting the truth to come out should be pleased to respond to a challenge to their facts. It is of utmost importance we get our facts correct. For example, we do not want to quote Marrs that LHO had to run down five flights of stairs when it is self-evident it was only four. ("We hold this truth to be self-evident: that six minus two is four.")

With respect to the interpretation of the facts, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and the reader can assess the logic of the opinion or inference as well as how accurately it reflects the established facts.

IMO a spirited debate is what makes the Forum both educational and enjoyable. It is not so when it deteriorates into childish name-calling.

*****************************************************************

"I do not mean to pat myself on the back here but contrast my exchanges with Robert Charles-Dunne. Even though he is often sarcastic and sometimes even condescending, his writing is often so clever and humorous that even I enjoy it though I am the target of his sarcasm. Moreover, he challenges me to support MY posts with facts (we are now enngaged in a somehat arcane discussion of whether Judy Eisenhower was Barry Goldwater's chief of staff or merely his top administarive assistant). I think accurate facts are important to the discussion (there are too many myths and misstatements circulating about the case) and the best way to get the truth out is through this give and take.

If I was wrong about Mrs. Eisenhower's position, it is to Mr. Charles-Dunne's credit that he caught my error and he deserves kudos not condemnation for it. If on the other hand the facts should bear out my position, I have the confidence that he has the intellectual integrity that he will admit I was right. In either event, with respect to the debate going on in that thread, it is important to pin down when Mrs. Esisenhower started working for BG and in what capacity. If I was wrong and had Mr., Charles-Dunne not challenged me on it, my error would have gone undetected."

Excellent, my favorite Fascist, excellent!!!

That's what I love about you, and especially yours and RCD's debates. They're an education, in and of themselves.

Now, that's an "attaboy" for T.G. and R.C.D.

Your,

Femme Nikita

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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

Still is.

Ashton, I didn't get into it with you over the throat thing because we have bigger

fish to fry.

I think "the Timeline" is the most important work being done. Everything

else is Parlor Gaming.

Please continue with your Timeline work on the Forum.

Can you please point me to "the Timeline" work you're referring to Cliff?

Thanks.

Myra,

The "Black Propaganda Ops" thread is very interesting.

Thanks Cliff. Appreciate it.

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...I find these kinds of dramatic forum exits to be totally ridiculous.

...

I do too.

Such "exits" strike me as hyper-theatrical.

And the erasing of all past posts is hyper-theatrical to the point of absurdity.

Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. Usually they name Tim Gratz but recently John Bevilaqua has become a figure they want removed. Despite these threats they rarely do leave. The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reasons. They use the forum to promote their views, their website or their latest book.

...

John, you've expressed this viewpoint more than once and I don't understand the logic at all. If sincere researchers have a common goal of spreading the truth about the murder of President Kennedy it makes sense to pool resources, to use all possible means of reaching people, and to go where like-minded people are to discuss theories and evidence. Furthermore, I can't imagine a less selfish endeavor than striving to inform an uncaring populace about the hideous crime(s) committed by a "government" of gangsters. If we fail at the endeavor we're beating our heads against the wall year after year decade after decade. If we succeed, presumably that means selling a lot of books or making a high profile movie, then we make enemies of the government gangsters. There's almost no scenario where truly selfish motives can come into play for sincere (non-xxxxx) researchers.

If you're sincere about spreading the truth, and I think you are, then I fail to understand why you begrudge fellow researchers the resources you freely and willingly provide.

...

Sure, members sometimes go off in a sulk and stop posting for a couple of weeks. In reality, they are addicted to this forum and cannot give it up.

...

That part I agree with.

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This forum once was a place of rational discussion and relevant facts related to important issues in history.

In recent months it has been turned over to disinformation scum who dump wholly irrelevant and unanalyzed garbage into it by the truckload—which not only is condoned by the administrators, but actually has been endorsed by John Simkin.

.......Ashton Gray

Ashton,

Don't be so thin skinned. Sure Gratz and John B. post a lot of junk, have their own idealogy they want to promote and grind most people the wrong way, but apparently that's what they want to do.

In the meantime, that doesn't mean that others can't follow their own instincts and interests, despite the speedbumps and interuptions rude posters throw out there.

I think your contributions to the Chronology Project and the Black Prop Ops are truely significant advances in our knowledge of the case and look forward to more.

I had just posted under the Spooky Stories thread an affidavit from a State Department administrator who claims to have read and routed a number of FBI documents related to Oswald, compete with dates and subject matter, that I was wanted to plug into your Wayback Machine chronology to see if it matches anything else.

Sure we can do a back channel, private email thing, but then others won't be able to contribute if they have something else to add, so I think it important to keep it open and above board, even if it means putting up with a few bullies.

BK

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...I find these kinds of dramatic forum exits to be totally ridiculous.

...

I do too.

Such "exits" strike me as hyper-theatrical.

And the erasing of all past posts is hyper-theatrical to the point of absurdity.

Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. Usually they name Tim Gratz but recently John Bevilaqua has become a figure they want removed. Despite these threats they rarely do leave. The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reasons. They use the forum to promote their views, their website or their latest book.

...

John, you've expressed this viewpoint more than once and I don't understand the logic at all. If sincere researchers have a common goal of spreading the truth about the murder of President Kennedy it makes sense to pool resources, to use all possible means of reaching people, and to go where like-minded people are to discuss theories and evidence. Furthermore, I can't imagine a less selfish endeavor than striving to inform an uncaring populace about the hideous crime(s) committed by a "government" of gangsters. If we fail at the endeavor we're beating our heads against the wall year after year decade after decade. If we succeed, presumably that means selling a lot of books or making a high profile movie, then we make enemies of the government gangsters. There's almost no scenario where truly selfish motives can come into play for sincere (non-xxxxx) researchers.

If you're sincere about spreading the truth, and I think you are, then I fail to understand why you begrudge fellow researchers the resources you freely and willingly provide.

...

Sure, members sometimes go off in a sulk and stop posting for a couple of weeks. In reality, they are addicted to this forum and cannot give it up.

...

That part I agree with.

Myra, I think John is expressing a common frustration. Many, if not most, researchers, stopped researching years ago, and now mostly want to sit back and spout opinions based on something they heard or remember hearing way back when. Few veterans ever change their minds about anything.

And that's exactly why this thing has never been solved, IMO. People won't let it be solved, because then most people would have to admit they were wrong. Perhaps a hundred years will go by, and people will stop caring, and then some liberal guy will say it was a conspiracy and some conservative guy will go "yeah, so what" and then we'll have our consensus.

Edited by Pat Speer
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Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. Usually they name Tim Gratz but recently John Bevilaqua has become a figure they want removed. Despite these threats they rarely do leave. The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reasons. They use the forum to promote their views, their website or their latest book.

...

John, you've expressed this viewpoint more than once and I don't understand the logic at all. If sincere researchers have a common goal of spreading the truth about the murder of President Kennedy it makes sense to pool resources, to use all possible means of reaching people, and to go where like-minded people are to discuss theories and evidence. Furthermore, I can't imagine a less selfish endeavor than striving to inform an uncaring populace about the hideous crime(s) committed by a "government" of gangsters. If we fail at the endeavor we're beating our heads against the wall year after year decade after decade. If we succeed, presumably that means selling a lot of books or making a high profile movie, then we make enemies of the government gangsters. There's almost no scenario where truly selfish motives can come into play for sincere (non-xxxxx) researchers.

If you're sincere about spreading the truth, and I think you are, then I fail to understand why you begrudge fellow researchers the resources you freely and willingly provide.

I don't begrudge them the right to this. I also provide this resource for selfish reasons. I want to expose government corruption wherever it takes place. This is the only way we can maintain democracy. My point was that Ashton gets a great deal from this forum and so he will contine to post when it is in his interest to do so.

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I find these kinds of dramatic forum exits to be totally ridiculous.

Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. . . . Sure, members sometimes go off in a sulk and stop posting for a couple of weeks. In reality, they are addicted to this forum and cannot give it up.

This reminds me of the old country song "Walk Out Backwards When You're Leaving and I'll Think You're Coming In."

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...I find these kinds of dramatic forum exits to be totally ridiculous.

...

I do too.

Such "exits" strike me as hyper-theatrical.

And the erasing of all past posts is hyper-theatrical to the point of absurdity.

Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. Usually they name Tim Gratz but recently John Bevilaqua has become a figure they want removed. Despite these threats they rarely do leave. The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reasons. They use the forum to promote their views, their website or their latest book.

...

John, you've expressed this viewpoint more than once and I don't understand the logic at all. If sincere researchers have a common goal of spreading the truth about the murder of President Kennedy it makes sense to pool resources, to use all possible means of reaching people, and to go where like-minded people are to discuss theories and evidence. Furthermore, I can't imagine a less selfish endeavor than striving to inform an uncaring populace about the hideous crime(s) committed by a "government" of gangsters. If we fail at the endeavor we're beating our heads against the wall year after year decade after decade. If we succeed, presumably that means selling a lot of books or making a high profile movie, then we make enemies of the government gangsters. There's almost no scenario where truly selfish motives can come into play for sincere (non-xxxxx) researchers.

If you're sincere about spreading the truth, and I think you are, then I fail to understand why you begrudge fellow researchers the resources you freely and willingly provide.

...

Sure, members sometimes go off in a sulk and stop posting for a couple of weeks. In reality, they are addicted to this forum and cannot give it up.

...

That part I agree with.

"The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reason."

Myra,

I think that John simply left out the word "some", in that; some people join.... I am sure that he is aware that a full 99% of us on this forum are here for a common goal. We want, with everything inside of us, to bring the truth about the JFK murder into the light of day.

Terry

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Virtually every week someone emails threatening to resign from the forum because of the antics of a fellow member. Usually they name Tim Gratz but recently John Bevilaqua has become a figure they want removed. Despite these threats they rarely do leave. The reason being is that people join this forum for purely selfish reasons. They use the forum to promote their views, their website or their latest book.

...

John, you've expressed this viewpoint more than once and I don't understand the logic at all. If sincere researchers have a common goal of spreading the truth about the murder of President Kennedy it makes sense to pool resources, to use all possible means of reaching people, and to go where like-minded people are to discuss theories and evidence. Furthermore, I can't imagine a less selfish endeavor than striving to inform an uncaring populace about the hideous crime(s) committed by a "government" of gangsters. If we fail at the endeavor we're beating our heads against the wall year after year decade after decade. If we succeed, presumably that means selling a lot of books or making a high profile movie, then we make enemies of the government gangsters. There's almost no scenario where truly selfish motives can come into play for sincere (non-xxxxx) researchers.

If you're sincere about spreading the truth, and I think you are, then I fail to understand why you begrudge fellow researchers the resources you freely and willingly provide.

I don't begrudge them the right to this. I also provide this resource for selfish reasons. I want to expose government corruption wherever it takes place. This is the only way we can maintain democracy. My point was that Ashton gets a great deal from this forum and so he will contine to post when it is in his interest to do so.

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.

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