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Marsmanship/Ballistics 101


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Hi Folks,

It is easy to get confused on the shooting aspect of this case,So I thought maybe a run down might be good and maybe it will help some folks here understand if they dont already the terms used and fundamentals one must have and use in shooting.

1) Marksmanship.........This is a somewhat advanced look at what Marsmanship is.

4 Fundamentals

1) Steady position

2) Aiming ( proper eye relief / sight alignment / sight picture)

3) Breath control

4) Steady trigger squeeze

5 Parts to a steady position

The sniper should assume a good firing position in order to engage targets with any consistency. A good position enables the sniper to relax and concentrate when preparing to fire.

1) Remove non-firing hand

2) Place the butt of the stock in the pocket of the shoulder

3) Firing hand, rearward pressure

4) Elbows in comfortable position

5) Stock weld is consistent

3 Elements for a good position

1) Good bone support

2) Muscular relaxation

3) Natural point of aim

4 Integrated phases of firing

1) Prepatory - Clean rifle, torque everything, confirm zero, check ammo

2) Before firing - Relax and get ready, notifies spotter before shot

3) Firing - Breath / relax / aim / squeeze (B.R.A.S)

4) After - Proper follow through, analyze shot

6 Parts of follow though

1) Keep stock weld

2) Keep trigger squeeze all the way to the rear

3) Continue to look through scope

4) Keep relaxed muscles

5) Let barrel reset on target

6) Release trigger after recoil stops and barrel resets

Basic Ballistics,and its important Terms,I dont want to get in anything advanced as this gets a bit confusing,and thats something we dont need anymore of: )

Ballistic Coefficient:A mathematical factor representing the ratio of the sectional density of a bullet to its coefficient of form. Simply put, BC expresses a bullet's length ( relative to diameter ) and aerodynamic shape, thus indicating its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. The higher its BC factor, the better a bullet retains its velocity and energy, and the flatter its trajectory. Most bullets have BCs between .100 and .700. Higher BCs are required for long-range shooting.

Ballistics:

The science that deals with the motion and flight characteristics of projectiles. It can be divided into three phases:

1) Internal ballistics

2) Exterior ballistics

3) Terminal ballistics

The main aspects of ballistics that concern the rifleman are bullet velocity, stability, kinetic energy, trajectory and penetration/wounding effect.

Boat Tail: Name given to a bullet type with tapered base. Also taper heel

Click: One adjustment of the windage and elevation turrets on a riflescope. The distance one click changes the point of impact depends on the minute of angle rating of the riflescope. Example, a scope with a 1/4" click adjustment would change the point of impact approximately 1/4" at 100 yards.

Drift: In exterior ballistics, the deviation of a projectile from the line of departure due to its rotation or spin. Also commonly applied to the effects of wind. See wind deflection.

Drop: Term used to describe the measure of a bullet's fall after it crosses the line of sight for the second time, i.e., beyond the zero or sighted-in range, due to the effect of gravity.

Effective Range: The range in which a competent and trained individual using the firearm has the ability to hit a target sixty to eighty percent of the time. This ability to hit the target is effected by the length of the barrel of the firearm, the actual cartridge fired, and quality of construction. In reality, most firearms have a true range much greater than this but the likely-hood of hitting a target is poor at greater than effective range. In the firearm lists, the effective ranges are based on personal knowledge and palladium books materials. There seems to be no good formula for the effective ranges of the various firearms.

Energy: The capacity of a mass, body or object to do work. (Terminal Performance; Greg G. Glover,2004)

Foot-Pound: Foot-pound force (ft.-lbf. the f is in italics);is the unit for energy which comes from the English system of measure. Foot-pound force as a value of energy is based on the Standard acceleration of gravity 32.1739 feet per second per second (of feet per second squared):Which is the earths ability to attract a mass at that rate.

FPS: feet pre second, the way velocity is usually measured for the projectile

Freebore:the unrifled section of the bore immediately ahead of the chamber

Grain: used to measure bullets and powder, 1/7000 of a pound

Grooves: the spiral part of the bore that is removed from in-between the lands

Hold Over/Under: Changing the point of aim either above or below of the target (without adjusting the sights) to adjust for the trajectory of the pellet.

Inch of Angle: A one inch drop at 100 yards.

Lands: the raised portion of the spiral rifling in a barrel

Load Density: the weight of the powder charge in grains divided by the volume of the cartridge case in grains of water.

Magnum: A cartridge capable of greater power then normal for its bore size.

Max Ordinate: The highest point a projectile travels above the line of sight.

Milliradian: One one-thousandths of a Radian. Scopes with mil-dot reticles, or graduated range-finding reticles are typically calibrated in Milliradians, not in Minutes of Angle as is sometimes thought.

Minute of Angle (MOA): The arc subtended by an angle of one minute (1/60th of a degree) at any range, usually 100 yards. A minute of angle at 100 yards is 1.0471680" - This is called a TRUE minute of angle. Since 1.0471680" is so close to one inch that for all practical purposes it is considered an inch many people just use one inch as the value at 100 yeards - this makes calculations easier and is called a SHOOTER'S minute of angle.

Muzzle Velocity: The speed of a projectile at the muzzle of a firearm - usually measured in feet per second. Industry standard is the velocity measured at 15" from muzzle.

Ogive: The curved forward portion of the bullet.

Point of Aim (POA): The point where the line of sight intersects the flight of the bullet.

Projectile: The bullet when it is in motion.

Rifling: Spiral grooves cut into the bore of the rifle to impart a spin on the bullet.

Transitional Kinetic Energy: The specific statement and equation of a bullets weight times the square of its velocity divided by the factors of 2 times the dimensional constant times 7000.

The work capable of being done by a projectile upon impact and is expressed as foot-pound(s) force (English). Transitional kinetic energy equation uses 450,282. As 450,282 is based on Homer S. Powley's calculation of 32.163 feet per second per second. This quotient is the factor that will yield the exact foot-pounds force values as found in most publications.

Twist: The rate of spiral of the grooves of a rifle barrel expressed in length of barrel per revolution.

Velocity: The speed of a projectile expressed as distance per unit time.

Zero: More correctly "zero sight adjustment". That That adjustment of guns' sights that will place a properly aimed shot at the desired point of at some range with a given load, in the absence of wind. The basis from which subsequent sight adjustments are made.

Zero Range: The distance at which the bullet path exactly coincides with the line of sight. Each gun/load combination actually has two zero ranges - one near the muzzle as the bullet rises through the line of sight and another at some greater distance where the bullet descends through the line of sight. Normally it is the second zero range that most shooters recognise.

I hope this might help some folks answer some questions they might have.

Ryan

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Thanks Ryan!

On November 27, 1963, five days after Kennedy was assassinated, the Washington Post reported: “Sheriff Bill Decker of Dallas said he thought a skilled rifleman could reload the rifle in two seconds. With re-sighting, he said, three shots could be fired in less than 20 seconds . . . Olympic rifle champion Hubert Hammerer was quoted by Reuters as saying that any sharpshooter could have targeted the first shot. The process of using the rifle’s bolt action between shots would have made the other shots difficult . . . Leonard Davis, an official of the National Rifle Association, told the Associated Press that ‘a true expert’ could fire three shots in five seconds with accuracy but Oswald’s Marine Corps record hardly bore out a classification as a ‘true expert’ . . . Newspapers in Italy and Austria yesterday quoted rifle experts as saying it was unlikely one man could have fired three shots in five seconds with great precision from the rifle allegedly used to shoot President Kennedy. It is a European-made rifle.”

The fact is Oswald was a neurotic malcontent who didn’t appear to be very good at anything.

On December 1, 1963, one week after Oswald was silenced, a Washington Post reporter, reporting from Dallas wrote:

“Accounts here of his income during the last year and a half of his life indicate that he was bounced from one job to the next and led the life of a harried, penny-pinching common laborer of uncommon mind. He may have been exigent to the point of desperation six weeks or so before the assassination, when he found himself out of a job, his unemployment compensation exhausted, and his wife about to give birth to their second baby.”

(Oswald enthusiastically accepted a job offer at the Texas School Book Depository because the CIA orchestrated the situation he was in, with the exception of his wife being pregnant.)

The Secret Service didn’t start protecting the President until after President McKinley was assassinated in 1901.

After McKinley, there were nine Presidents, Theodore Roosevelt, William Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry Truman, and Dwight D. Eisenhower, who served sixty consecutive years in the Oval Office without being assassinated.

Legislation on the CIA was passed in 1947 and 1949, and in 1951 Truman signed the legislation in which the CIA took over Secret Service duties.

On November 22, 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated, allegedly by a neurotic malcontent who happened to have been working as a stock clerk for five weeks in a building along the President’s motorcade route; a man who allegedly, when he heard where the motorcade route was, decided to bring a rifle to work three days later and assassinate the President of the United States with no problem whatsoever, because this neurotic malcontent, while not very good at anything else, was supposedly a phenomenal marksman.

Unfortunately, the neurotic malcontent was killed two days later as he was being moved “basically for his own protection.”

Edited by Anthony Frank
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Thanks Ryan!

On November 27, 1963, five days after Kennedy was assassinated, the Washington Post reported: “Sheriff Bill Decker of Dallas said he thought a skilled rifleman could reload the rifle in two seconds.  With re-sighting, he said, three shots could be fired in less than 20 seconds . . . Olympic rifle champion Hubert Hammerer was quoted by Reuters as saying that any sharpshooter could have targeted the first shot. The process of using the rifle’s bolt action between shots would have made the other shots difficult . . . Leonard Davis, an official of the National Rifle Association, told the Associated Press that ‘a true expert’ could fire three shots in five seconds with accuracy but Oswald’s Marine Corps record hardly bore out a classification as a ‘true expert’ . . . Newspapers in Italy and Austria yesterday quoted rifle experts as saying it was unlikely one man could have fired three shots in five seconds with great precision from the rifle allegedly used to shoot President Kennedy. It is a European-made rifle.”

The fact is Oswald was a neurotic malcontent who didn’t appear to be very good at anything.

On December 1, 1963, one week after Oswald was silenced, a Washington Post reporter, reporting from Dallas wrote:

“Accounts here of his income during the last year and a half of his life indicate that he was bounced from one job to the next and led the life of a harried, penny-pinching common laborer of uncommon mind. He may have been exigent to the point of desperation six weeks or so before the assassination, when he found himself out of a job, his unemployment compensation exhausted, and his wife about to give birth to their second baby.”

(Oswald enthusiastically accepted a job offer at the Texas School Book Depository because the CIA orchestrated the situation he was in, with the exception of his wife being pregnant.)

The Secret Service didn’t start protecting the President until after President McKinley was assassinated in 1901.

After McKinley, there were nine Presidents, Theodore Roosevelt, William Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry Truman, and Dwight D. Eisenhower, who served sixty consecutive years in the Oval Office without being assassinated.

Legislation on the CIA was passed in 1947 and 1949, and in 1951 Truman signed the legislation in which the CIA took over Secret Service duties.

On November 22, 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated, allegedly by a neurotic malcontent who happened to have been working as a stock clerk for five weeks in a building along the President’s motorcade route; a man who allegedly, when he heard where the motorcade route was, decided to bring a rifle to work three days later and assassinate the President of the United States with no problem whatsoever, because this neurotic malcontent, while not very good at anything else, was supposedly a phenomenal marksman.

Unfortunately, the neurotic malcontent was killed two days later as he was being moved “basically for his own protection.”

No problem Anthony,

Also Carlos Hathcock who is the famous Marine Sniper of Vietnam tried to duplicate with fellow Marine Snipers the same shooting scenerio the WC said Oswald did. What they found was that they could not duplicate Oswalds supposed shooting scenerio.

IMHO If Hathcock could not duplicate it,it couldnt be done.We also must remember that the first shot like mentioned above would be your most accurate of shots,as this is where you are most focused and the rest are hurry shots.

I always ask but never get answers from LNers is where was Oswald trained to shoot from a elevated position? where did he learn to make adjustments to his scope for a elevated shot? ,

these are very important questions which have never really been brought up nor have there been answers for as a elevated shot is a very difficult shot.

From my exp in shooting I can say that firing from a elevated position is very difficult and takes alot of training,let alone shooting at a target that is moving away from your position which makes it even harder.

Ive seen great Military Snipers shooting under stress fire from a elevated position miss targets at 300-600 meters that are stand still targets.

Yet the WC has Oswald who was never trained to fire from a elevated position making hits at 88 yards with the worlds crappiest shoulder weapon on a moving target that he would have to lead to hit that is moving away under what any shooter would consider HIGH stress firing.

Lets say Oswald had 8 seconds like I have heard some say,the problem here, and these questions are really never asked is once the first round is fired one looses his Line Of Sight for lets say a brief second (I have never timed my loss of LOS) Then one must eject the fired case(looseing his LOS, especially with the MC rifle with such a short stock )and load in a new round, then find his target in his FOV and correct his LOS with target and time his lead again.

This is just part of how difficult this scenerio is,and we know Oswald was a poor shot,and I havent even got into going over the tech of Marsmanship one must use like breathing tech etc. after every shot.

Oswald would have to hurry is second and third shot,which ended up his best shots........IMHO there was no way Oswald could make thos shots from that position under those conditions.

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Ryan,

Thanks for that break down, valuable indeed.

I think the point that gets lost here, is that using a scope at relatively short distances (under 100 yards) is difficult to say the least as it is so easy to lose one's target with any slight movement which is greatly exaggerated through the scope. Like you said, the first shot under those conditions would always be the best.

I also have to agree with your comment that if Hathcock couldn't do it, no one could.

James

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Ryan: Thank you for your informative postings. Could I ask you a few questions about guns and the events in Dealey Plaza. From the evidence (wounds, photographs, audio tapes, etc.) available:

(1) How many shots were fired?

(2) Where do you think the gunmen were positioned?

(3) Is it possible that the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano was one of the weapons used?

(4) Is it possible that one gunman in the Texas Book Depository using another type of rifle could have fired the shots in the allocated time?

(5) If a lone gunman had been in the Texas Book Depository would he not have started firing when JFK’s car was in Houston Street rather than wait until he reached Elm Street.

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Mr. Ryan Crowe:

Thank you for you postings. I have been waiting for a rifle/ballistics expert to join the forum. I am probably not using the accurate terminology, please accept my apologies in advance.

I would like to ask you the following:

1.) Assuming you have seen the Zapruder film and at least some of the autopsy photos of President Kennedy; do you believe it is possible that the large head wound could have been caused by the MC carbine bullets as suggested by the WC?

2.) Assuming the Magic or Ridiculous bullet theory were in fact true (it's not!) could the MC bullet have had enough velocity and thrust to penetrate through all the wounds as alleged by the WC?

3.) How close to "Lee Oswalds" performance did the expert marksmen get to, when simulating his presumed shots?

4.) Did the simulation take place under similar circumstances (angle, speed of target etc.) and using a similar weapon and poorly aligned scope?

Thank you!

Antti Hynonen

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Ryan: Thank you for your informative postings. Could I ask you a few questions about guns and the events in Dealey Plaza. From the evidence (wounds, photographs, audio tapes, etc.) available:

(1) How many shots were fired?

(2) Where do you think the gunmen were positioned?

(3) Is it possible that the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano was one of the weapons used?

(4) Is it possible that one gunman in the Texas Book Depository using another type of rifle could have fired the shots in the allocated time?

(5) If a lone gunman had been in the Texas Book Depository would he not have started firing when JFK’s car was in Houston Street rather than wait until he reached Elm Street.

Hello Mr Simkin,

I will try and answer your questions the best I can.

1)How many shots were fired?

This is difficult to say as there are so many reports of witnesses saying 3-4-5 shots were heard that day.

The one shot I cannot figure out is the back shot as it was stated as a shallow wound which to me is mind blowing and I have been discussing this with other shooters and its something we are trying to figure out.

If we take the back wound, throat wound,head wound and Connally's wounds as seperate we have atleast 4 shots fired,but if im not mistaken there were reports of witnesses seeing rounds hit behind the limo, I believe 2 rounds, one being on the street and one being in the grass which gives us six rounds fired not to mention Tague.

This is probably the most difficult questions to answer as I would have to have been there to give a somewhat accurate answer on how many shots I thought were fired.

2)Where do you think the gunman were positioned?

IMHO We have gunmen positioned on the 6th floor as stated by witnesses,how many I dont think we can really ever get a answer for that, But if I was up there I would have myself and a spotter calling shots as shots are being fired.

Grassy knoll, again I would put 2 men there, one being a shooter and the other a spotter and he would also be used to hide/dispose of the rifle for the shooter/spotter team to get away.The man with the SS ID was seen behind the picket fence,IMHO he was there to stall anyone who was there first on the scene,I dont believe he was a spotter or shooter.

South knoll, Again spotter and shooter team,I will have to look at the films more but this might be where the fatal head shot came from.Now I know some are saying WHAT lol but this position gives us the best angle for the fatal head shot to match up with the head wound. It was a somewhat flat trajectory that caused that head wound and where we have the Grassy knoll shooter he is somewhat elevated and the angles do not match up.Kennedy would have to be looking somewhat towards the Grassy knoll for the head wound to match up with the Grassy knoll position,the only other place I could see that shot coming from is further down the fence line closer to the over pass,But my guess is still the south knoll.

3) Is it possilble for the MC was one of the weapons?

Sure,I believe that rifle was used on the 6th floor,if it scores a hit thats great but if it doesnt it is still going to be the murder weapon,IMHO Its main use was to tie that weapon into that location to Oswald period.

4)Is it possible that one gunman in the Texas Book Depository using another type of rifle could have fired the shots in the allocated time?

Im guessing you are asking if a shooter using another type of rifle could score those hits the the WC said the MC did? My answer to that would be no,because the single bullet theory is garbage,now could another type of rifle in the hands of a GREAT shooter like Hathcock himself be able to do it, maybe but IMHO that location (6th floor) is a BAD location for a right handed shooter to get maximum accuracy.What I stated above about one looseing his LOS after a round is fired is very true,when you add high stress fire to that mix and such a small FOV it makes it even harder.

5) If a lone gunman had been in the Texas Book Depository would he not have started firing when JFK’s car was in Houston Street rather than wait until he reached Elm Street.

No doubt about it, a good shooter would have taken that shot as it was a easier shot to lead as he is coming to you,not moving away which is damn difficult to lead.

The only reason to fire when they did that day was to get into a triangle cross fire

With the 6th floor shooter being the signal shot (first shot)this would draw ones attention away from the other shooters who would IMHO be shooting in what I call a rythem,where shooters shoot almost together,also called canyon shooting.

This makes it very difficult to locate where rounds are being fired.

This is what I got from witnesses saying they heard 2 very close shots being fired.

If I have confused anyone I am sorry but im doing this with no sleep last night.....Food Poisoning does not do a body good LOL.

If anyone doesnt understand I will re answer question when im feeling a little better.

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Mr. Ryan Crowe:

Thank you for you postings. I have been waiting for a rifle/ballistics expert to join the forum. I am probably not using the accurate terminology, please accept my apologies in advance.

I would like to ask you the following:

1.) Assuming you have seen the Zapruder film and at least some of the autopsy photos of President Kennedy; do you believe it is possible that the large head wound could have been caused by the MC carbine bullets as suggested by the WC?

2.) Assuming the Magic or Ridiculous bullet theory were in fact true (it's not!) could the MC bullet have had enough velocity and thrust to penetrate through all the wounds as alleged by the WC?

3.) How close to "Lee Oswalds" performance did the expert marksmen get to, when simulating his presumed shots?

4.) Did the simulation take place under similar circumstances (angle, speed of target etc.) and using a similar weapon and poorly aligned scope?

Thank you!

Antti Hynonen

Hi Antti,

I will try and answer your questions buddy,

1.) Assuming you have seen the Zapruder film and at least some of the autopsy photos of President Kennedy; do you believe it is possible that the large head wound could have been caused by the MC carbine bullets as suggested by the WC?

No doubt, any bullet that is over say 122 grains and moving in excess of 1900 fps can cause MAJOR damage,the skull is very fragile (hollow so to speak) and when something with that kind of weight moving at 2000 fps hits a skull it would cause a wound like you see in the Z-film.

But the WC had it backwards with the exit hole being at the rear not the front,as we can see the exit wound in the Z-Film shown in photo below.

2.) Assuming the Magic or Ridiculous bullet theory were in fact true (it's not!) could the MC bullet have had enough velocity and thrust to penetrate through all the wounds as alleged by the WC?

This is very difficult to answer,as a bullet starts to yaw ( tumbles) when entering a target like a torso dumping its kenetic energy inside.So its very difficult to say if it could penetrate like the WC said it did.

3.) How close to "Lee Oswalds" performance did the expert marksmen get to, when simulating his presumed shots?

A quick answer to this is they had to re fit the mis alighned scope to the rifle just to shoot it LOL,In this shooting we cannot use close,Its alot easier to shoot at paper targets under NO pressure then it is at the President,so even if they could make the exact shots Oswald did (which they didnt) they still had to re-fit the scope just to get it to shoot somewhat straight........So all there tests were a joke IMHO.

4.) Did the simulation take place under similar circumstances (angle, speed of target etc.) and using a similar weapon and poorly aligned scope?

Again like my answer above,they had to re alighn the scope, that is huge as they are messing up the evidence,because if they couldnt achieve accurate hits with the same condition the rifle Oswald used was in, and they are better shooters,then there tests fall on deaf ears IMHO.

Plus they shot from a short elevation comaperd to the 6th floor,the higher up you are the harder it is, again it was fixed from the get go.

And this is what the major public never had answers for as they knew the majority wouldnt know any better.

Again I hope I answerd you and Mr Simkins questions,Im pretty darn sick at this time from food poison so if I confused any folks here please feel free to ask and when im better I will try and give more accurate answers.

Ryan

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Mr Simkins,

One last thing, Where you asked about another rifle from the 6th floor being able to make those shots, I was thinking bolt action (not thinking clearly) If a very skilled shooetr was up there with a M1 Garand (using this rifle as it was common back then)Then I would have to say that they would have a better chance,but again those shots were very difficult and I still dont think it could be done.

Also on shooter location and shots fired question,The only thing other then the rythm shots (canyon shooting) is using a rifle like the M1 Garand where you have semi auto capablities for quick follow up shots.

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A better explanation of the south knoll shot,also when I said flat trajectory I say this as a longer shot as Grassy knoll shot would be very close makeing it seem a little more downward of a angle.

To recreate this for the throat shot, I found that the angle of the moving limo to the shot origin I came up with was minimal but the speed of the limo was between 14-15mph. This would have caused, in my estimation, a azmuth offset of under 2min and no elevation change due to the high elevation of Elm at this point. FOr the headshot, the angle was almost doubled, but the speed of the limo had decreased to roughly 7mph to compensate. This again would give an azmuth offset at roughly 2min but an elevation offset of roughly 1min, due to the lower elevation of Elm at this point and the decreased distance, creating a greater angle. As you would be aware, these minimal adjustments would be easily overcome by the visual tracking and minimal surveillance of the terrain. This would however explain the shot impact to the left side of his head, due to the drastically changing speed of the limo just prior to impact. It would be likely that the shooter overcompensated. This is also why I believe the knoll shooter missed, as the angle was much greater and the distance was much shorter, so the decrease in speed would have been much more difficult to pan as the shot was going off, causing the shooter to miss in front of the target.

This is explained by a fellow shooter,as I am just to darn sick to think straight <_<

Hope this explains things a little better.

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Thanks for your replies Ryan.

As I recall there were other simulation tests done to try and replicate "Oswald". I believe some were done by the FBI. Just curious, do you (or anyone else) know of other tests? I keep hearing arguments by Lone Nutters that some set of simulated tests, in fact, showed that the shots the WC (not Water Closet) claimed Oswald did could be replicated with out problems.

Any ideas about that?

Antti

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From my exp in shooting I can say that firing from a elevated position is very difficult and takes alot of training,let alone shooting at a target that is moving away from your position which makes it even harder.

Ryan,

A few things I can add here -

The shots from the alledged sniper's nest were not only difficult because the target was moving away but add the difficulty of the target also moving down an incline (towards the underpass) and following the curvature of the road (left to right I believe). As an example compare the difficulty of shooting skeet to shooting trap.

The MC was a terrible choice as a sniper weapon because it is not a "high powered rifle", it's a carbine. Carbine's such as the M1 are great for close quarters fighting because they have shorter barrels and are lighter than rifles. They are lousy sniper weapons. If I had been a shooter from a elevated position and I was serious about my business I'd probably have taken the "tried and true" weapon that had been the choice of snipers through the three previous major conflicts, the Springfield '03.

I'm also highly suspicious of the fact that we're supposed to believe that Oswald, despite his military training, would have attempted his "mission" with four rounds in a clip which holds six rounds.

I'll try and find the WC testimony - there's a passage with one of the FBI agents describing the problem that they had with the MC scope. It wasn't zeroed. They listed the ranges that they tested it at and the amount of "kentucky windage" needed to hit a bull. Funny thing was that they fudged some of the numbers and if you know where to look it'll jump right out at you. I'll scare it up.

Keep up the good work.

Chris

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Robert Frazier's WC testimony

(even though most of his testimony is crap here's a couple of juicy bits)

Morning session:

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, would you have tried to give a lead at all, if you had been in that position?

Mr. FRAZIER. At that range, at that distance, 175 to 265 feet, with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead--I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size.

Next session:

Mr. EISENBERG. Now also you had made certain calculations concerning what we have been calling the lead that had to be given to a target, assuming various factors which were supplied to you. Do you have those calculations now?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the lead would amount to shooting over the target at 175 feet, a distance of 6.7 inches, and the decimal on that figure is not an accurate decimal because this figure relates to an average velocity of ammunition of this type, and is concerned with a speed of a vehicle which is also estimated, and a distance which may or may not be exactly accurate. But at a ground speed of 11 miles an hour, it would be necessary to shoot over or lead a target 6.7 inches for the bullet to hit the intended spot on the target At 265 feet the lead would be .51 feet, or 6.1 inches. I might say that the variation, that of less lead at the longer distance, is in great part due to the fact that the target is farther away and that the shot is more nearly in line with the direction in which the target is moving, which would account for much of the drop in the amount of lead. And, in addition, I calculated this on the basis of the fact that there was a slight slope between the 175-foot and the 265-foot location downwards away from the shooter, which would also tend to more nearly cause the target to be moving in the same path as the bullet.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did you convert those lead distances into the amount of inches which the shooter would have to sight above the head, above the point of the target?

Mr. FRAZIER. Those figures I gave were the elevations or the sighting distances above the target. The 6.7 inches vertical lead or sighting over the target is the equivalent of leading on the ground of 1.4 feet.

huh? to lead or not to lead that is the question... :o

Mr. SPECTER. That completes my questions of Mr. Frazier.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one more question?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. There has been a certain amount of testimony indicating there was a longer pause between the report of the first shot or what is believed to be the report, explosion of the first shot and the second and third shots, that is not absolutely unanimous but I would say it is something like 5 to 1 or something of that kind, what would you say, 2 to 1, 3 to 1?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Is it possible that the assassin attempted to fire when the car was behind the tree or going into the tree, that that shot went astray, and that that accounts for, if there was a longer delay between one and two, that would account for it, and then the lethal shots were fired or the wound, the one shot that was fired that hit the two and then the lethal shot was fired immediately after. It is speculation.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that must be speculation because there certainly is conflicting evidence as to the intervals between the first and the second shot and the second and the third shot.

Mr. DULLES. I think if you will read the testimony you will find it at least 2 to 1 except for the people in the car.

Mr. McCLOY. Maybe, but what weight do you give these, I don't know. I think that is quite possible that a bullet was deflected by that tree, but there is no evidence whatever of the bullet landing anywhere in the street or among the crowd. And yet there seems to be no doubt at all that three shots were fired.

Mr. DULLES. That seems to be the evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. At least three shots were fired, and probably three shots were fired because of the three shells that were found.

Mr. DULLES. Three shells?

Mr. MCCLOY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. We probably won't settle that today.

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know how to answer that question except possibly to go back to the frame numbers of the Zapruder film and you will find they are about equally spaced from frame 161 just before the tree to frame, say, 220, which is just a few frames after the tree, that is 59 or approximately 60 frames, from that point. But from frame 222 to the last shot of frame 313 is 78 and 13, 91 frames, so there is more time between the second and third than the first and second, assuming that the second one actually occurred and that it occurred at about the middle of that interval.

Mr. McCLOY. In the middle of that frame, yes. I think that is pretty persuasive.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite follow that.

Mr. McCLOY. There seemed to be more frames between, going backwards, between the third shot, that is between the time that----

Mr. DULLES. The first shot went astray, you don't know whether it was fired. You have no way of getting at that.     (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier.

Mr. Dulles...I'm having a hard time following that too.... what exactly are we not trying to settle today?

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