Lee Forman Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Im fairly new around here, 17 years old, have a great interest in the case. I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. There are alot of bright people here who have investigated the case alot longer than I have, that is why I would like your opinion. IMO, Files was on the grassy knoll. 2-3 people (not Oswald) were in the TSBD. I have heard a description of a short, heavy set, dark skinned man. Anyone fit that profile? Roselli and Nicoletti in Dal Tex. Someone shot from the south knoll IMO, the throat shot. Alot of names have floated around about being possible shooters, Harrelson, Wallace, Martino, Giancana, Lawrence, White, etc. If you have proof that in your opinion puts somwhere or something in a location, please post it. Thanks! Drew - TSBD - multiple shooters, including decoy shooter. Mac Wallace as potential shooter. Fingerprint analysis, Loy Factor account, etc. Oswald as piss-poorly set-up Patsy. What went wrong? - DalTex - 2nd floor window, possibly Nestor Izquierdo as spotter. Shooter as a white male - Saul Sague? As per MacDonald, spotter as per Gerry Hemming. Broom closet rented as storage possibly by Jennifer Juniors. - Top of Underpass - Cuban, at storm drain. Used sewers as escape route. 16" diameter pipes replaced originals during construction some point after 1963. - Behind picketfence, near corner, maybe a Corsican - possible Paul Mondolini. Seen by Ed Hoffman, possible by Lee Bowers as well. Could also have been Military sniper. Delivered fatal headshot. - On stairs at Elm, under Texas Live Oak, Cuban - Possible patsy. Maybe Luis Posada. North Peristyle, unclear. No south knoll shooter. No 'flachette' from umbrellas, pens or cigars. No James Files - at least, not as a shooter. No shot through windshield to throat. Minimum 2 shots to Kennedy's head, if not three. Evan - can you expand? This is very intriguing. What exactly would have compelled the cover-up? worked with a guy while a contract trainer for the Feds-he was retired Agency and while not involved in JMWave he said there were alot of people who honestly thought they were working for the agency who in fact worked for the Mob in Miami.again, I thik the why will id the who-worked two Mafia hits and while we never id'd the trigger men we were able to id the sponsor's though no one would testify against them. I worry that the folks who did this keep sending us off to chase our own tails. I just don't think the Mob had the horsepower to control the investigations and the AGENCY AS A WHOLE was not involved though remember people are routinely "sheep dipped" and people like Harry Holmes continue to intrigue me. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Marshall Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Im fairly new around here, 17 years old, have a great interest in the case. I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. There are alot of bright people here who have investigated the case alot longer than I have, that is why I would like your opinion. IMO, Files was on the grassy knoll. 2-3 people (not Oswald) were in the TSBD. I have heard a description of a short, heavy set, dark skinned man. Anyone fit that profile? Roselli and Nicoletti in Dal Tex. Someone shot from the south knoll IMO, the throat shot. Alot of names have floated around about being possible shooters, Harrelson, Wallace, Martino, Giancana, Lawrence, White, etc. If you have proof that in your opinion puts somwhere or something in a location, please post it. Thanks! Drew - TSBD - multiple shooters, including decoy shooter. Mac Wallace as potential shooter. Fingerprint analysis, Loy Factor account, etc. Oswald as piss-poorly set-up Patsy. What went wrong? - DalTex - 2nd floor window, possibly Nestor Izquierdo as spotter. Shooter as a white male - Saul Sague? As per MacDonald, spotter as per Gerry Hemming. Broom closet rented as storage possibly by Jennifer Juniors. - Top of Underpass - Cuban, at storm drain. Used sewers as escape route. 16" diameter pipes replaced originals during construction some point after 1963. - Behind picketfence, near corner, maybe a Corsican - possible Paul Mondolini. Seen by Ed Hoffman, possible by Lee Bowers as well. Could also have been Military sniper. Delivered fatal headshot. - On stairs at Elm, under Texas Live Oak, Cuban - Possible patsy. Maybe Luis Posada. North Peristyle, unclear. No south knoll shooter. No 'flachette' from umbrellas, pens or cigars. No James Files - at least, not as a shooter. No shot through windshield to throat. Minimum 2 shots to Kennedy's head, if not three. Evan - can you expand? This is very intriguing. What exactly would have compelled the cover-up? worked with a guy while a contract trainer for the Feds-he was retired Agency and while not involved in JMWave he said there were alot of people who honestly thought they were working for the agency who in fact worked for the Mob in Miami.again, I thik the why will id the who-worked two Mafia hits and while we never id'd the trigger men we were able to id the sponsor's though no one would testify against them. I worry that the folks who did this keep sending us off to chase our own tails. I just don't think the Mob had the horsepower to control the investigations and the AGENCY AS A WHOLE was not involved though remember people are routinely "sheep dipped" and people like Harry Holmes continue to intrigue me. - lee simple their patrotism was appealed too and they were decent Americans who thought they were helping their govt. knew a Brit who thought he was helping British Intelligence and did some questionable things for the Aparthaid SA govt. unfortunatelty, such behavior by intelligence agencies of all govts is not unknown-a Bud had 1st hand experience with how ruthless British Intellignece was during WW II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard J. Smith Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) I am told the following were involved:TSBD: Herminio Diaz Garcia (shooter) Tony Cuesta (spotter) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgarciaH.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcuesto.htm DAL-TEX: Virgilio Gonzalez (shooter) Eugenio Martinez (spotter) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgonzalezV.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmartinez.htm ELM STREET: Felipe Vidal Santiago (Cuban Man) Roy Hargraves (The Umbrella Man) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsantiago.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhargraves.htm BEHIND FENCE: Steve Wilson (shooter) Dick Whatley (spotter) Ed Collins (radio) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilsonS.htm CORNER OF MAIN AND HOUSTON Gerry Hemming Rip Robertson David Morales http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhemming.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrobertsonW.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm I agree with several of your participants, with exceptions as noted: 1. Gonzalez and Martinez, perhaps Bernard Barker, behind the fence 2. No Dal Tex shooter 3. Gordon Novel as Umbrella Man 4. Head shot shooter from South Knoll, more than likely a military Team 5 Special Ops trained sniper oft used by the CIA 5. I don't believe it's Hemming near the corner of Main/Houston. 6. If you are referring to the "Lamppost Man" at Main and Houston as Morales, I disagree. No comparison to Morales IMO. "LPM" was IMO a CIA case officer pictured here in Long Tieng Laos circa 1970. As James indicated, some of these guys are virtually interchangeable. Let us not forget Howard Hunt, IMO walking across Elm St minutes after the shooting. South Knoll shooter presentation by Sherry Gutierrez: http://jfklancerforum.com/sherryg/images/ click on NID2003.mht Edited November 24, 2006 by Richard J. Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 simple their patrotism was appealed too and they were decent Americans who thought they were helping their govt. knew a Brit who thought he was helping British Intelligence and did some questionable things for the Aparthaid SA govt. unfortunatelty, such behavior by intelligence agencies of all govts is not unknown-a Bud had 1st hand experience with how ruthless British Intellignece was during WW II. Thanks Evan - I have heard plenty to suggest something of this sort - including stuff like the account of Harry Dean as one simply example [a fake CIA agent], Richard Nagell [working for a double agent] another - and there is quite a lot more. At a minimum, I can't see the roles of certain Agency types however, as being completely detached - so this begs a number of questions. Over the years the term 'rogue' agents has been used - but it's also believed that this is simply a smokescreen. I think it's a complicated mess - can't get my head around it - for example - for all intents and purposes, it certainly appears that Regis Kennedy was scum. Working for Hoover as well as Marcello. Just speculation - But what does that mean? I was thinking about a thread on Loran Hall [aka 'chibata']. From documents and some researchers, it clearly appears that the man was an FBI informant - since at least 1959 if memory serves - How does that fit in exactly? No idea. Cubans that are thought to have participated - seriously burned in the 2056 - no trust in the agency, which could then lend some credibility to the theory that Rip Robertson had to be present in the Plaza. He's lured there? Doesn't have a clue? Or he's acting in 2 capacities? Morales - an agency man. He's not working for the mob - how could he be fooled? Same for Phillips. Is he looking to use techniques he's learned - cutouts and plausible denial, use of mob muscle - where's he getting his funding? Trujillo just wouldn't be enough. Too many reverberations within too many G'ment circles. Too many with motives. Verbal command at whatever top level, carried out within compartmentalized fashion - use of Cubans and Mob as the cutouts and the ones who would see the job done - plausible denial factor - plus multiple patsies. Maybe some false flagging to pull in a few suckers. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 The CIA had been infiltrated by KGB officers. Well, ayup. And vice-versa. Since the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests, it wasn't terribly difficult to exchange personnel and information. Ashton Gray Ashton takes down his rifle, draws a bead, and scores a bullseye. As Ginsburg said. "The CIA, and the KGB keep each others secrets." "One mind, brute force, and full of money" HADDA BEEN PLAYING ON A JUKEBOX... Well this is new to me. Did the CIA and KGB merely cooperate or actually work together? Did they do foreign exchange student kinda swaps? I guess I'm confused about the statement that "the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests." Why would rich capitalists tolerate a communist form of gov't? Isn't that bad for business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I am told the following were involved:TSBD: Herminio Diaz Garcia (shooter) Tony Cuesta (spotter) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgarciaH.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcuesto.htm DAL-TEX: Virgilio Gonzalez (shooter) Eugenio Martinez (spotter) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgonzalezV.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmartinez.htm ELM STREET: Felipe Vidal Santiago (Cuban Man) Roy Hargraves (The Umbrella Man) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsantiago.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhargraves.htm BEHIND FENCE: Steve Wilson (shooter) Dick Whatley (spotter) Ed Collins (radio) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilsonS.htm CORNER OF MAIN AND HOUSTON Gerry Hemming Rip Robertson David Morales http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhemming.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrobertsonW.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm I think this site makes a compelling case that it was Orlando Bosch working with Hargraves. http://www.copweb.be/Orlando%20Bosch%20Avila.htm If, that is, their "corrected" photo really eliminated distortion that made DCM look so much like Santiago. Also, where does that leave Roselli? It seems like enough sources place him in DP that day. Dunno how reliable the sources are of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I am told the following were involved: TSBD: Herminio Diaz Garcia (shooter) Tony Cuesta (spotter) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgarciaH.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcuesto.htm DAL-TEX: Virgilio Gonzalez (shooter) Eugenio Martinez (spotter) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgonzalezV.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmartinez.htm ELM STREET: Felipe Vidal Santiago (Cuban Man) Roy Hargraves (The Umbrella Man) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsantiago.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhargraves.htm BEHIND FENCE: Steve Wilson (shooter) Dick Whatley (spotter) Ed Collins (radio) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilsonS.htm CORNER OF MAIN AND HOUSTON Gerry Hemming Rip Robertson David Morales http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhemming.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrobertsonW.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm I think this site makes a compelling case that it was Orlando Bosch working with Hargraves. http://www.copweb.be/Orlando%20Bosch%20Avila.htm If, that is, their "corrected" photo really eliminated distortion that made DCM look so much like Santiago. Also, where does that leave Roselli? It seems like enough sources place him in DP that day. Dunno how reliable the sources are of course. ________________________________________ And where does that leave Malcolm Wallace? ________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Isn't this post 2 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Evan Marshall Posted Yesterday, 07:45 PM QUOTE(James Richards @ Jul 15 2004, 03:56 AM) Jack, The other thing about that list of possible participants is that there is barely a degree of separation between them all. If Morales is handed the operational duties for the assassination, he would be wise to employ cutouts. Men he knows and who can deliver the teams to get the job done. Men like John Roselli, Bernardo De Torres, John Adrian O'Hare (Col Bishop to his friends), maybe John Martino, maybe Eddie Perez. I would love to know the intimate details and nuances in the relationship between the two Davids, Phillips and Morales. I think a lot of the questions we all have could be answered right there. James two tours in Detroit Homicide taught me the why would tell you the who. I doubt any of us have ever heard of the actual shooters and they were probably back in Vietnam, dead, or on another continent within hrs. Was the Agency involved at some level? probably, but people need to understand the people on the sharp end of the stick were relatively unimportant. they were there because they could shoot not because they could have been arrested by happenstance and tracked back to CIA. having worked some admitedly less complicated murder conspirarcy cases, I've found the shooters are one of the least important links in the chain. Mr. Marshall, I would agree with your position that shooters are less important, but wouldn't you say that it is nevertheless important that the shooters/triggermen be tried and convicted as well? Although we'd all prefer to see the plotters tried and convicted, if we had to choose. Perhaps finding out the identities of one group will lead us to the other, no? I think they're a distraction. Interchangable hired goons. It's interesting to ponder internally, but it's much more important to present the planners to people externally. Im fairly new around here, 17 years old, have a great interest in the case. I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. There are alot of bright people here who have investigated the case alot longer than I have, that is why I would like your opinion. IMO, Files was on the grassy knoll. 2-3 people (not Oswald) were in the TSBD. I have heard a description of a short, heavy set, dark skinned man. Anyone fit that profile? Roselli and Nicoletti in Dal Tex. Someone shot from the south knoll IMO, the throat shot. Alot of names have floated around about being possible shooters, Harrelson, Wallace, Martino, Giancana, Lawrence, White, etc. If you have proof that in your opinion puts somwhere or something in a location, please post it. Thanks! Drew - TSBD - multiple shooters, including decoy shooter. Mac Wallace as potential shooter. Fingerprint analysis, Loy Factor account, etc. Oswald as piss-poorly set-up Patsy. What went wrong? - DalTex - 2nd floor window, possibly Nestor Izquierdo as spotter. Shooter as a white male - Saul Sague? As per MacDonald, spotter as per Gerry Hemming. Broom closet rented as storage possibly by Jennifer Juniors. - Top of Underpass - Cuban, at storm drain. Used sewers as escape route. 16" diameter pipes replaced originals during construction some point after 1963. - Behind picketfence, near corner, maybe a Corsican - possible Paul Mondolini. Seen by Ed Hoffman, possible by Lee Bowers as well. Could also have been Military sniper. Delivered fatal headshot. - On stairs at Elm, under Texas Live Oak, Cuban - Possible patsy. Maybe Luis Posada. North Peristyle, unclear. No south knoll shooter. No 'flachette' from umbrellas, pens or cigars. No James Files - at least, not as a shooter. No shot through windshield to throat. Minimum 2 shots to Kennedy's head, if not three. Evan - can you expand? This is very intriguing. What exactly would have compelled the cover-up? worked with a guy while a contract trainer for the Feds-he was retired Agency and while not involved in JMWave he said there were alot of people who honestly thought they were working for the agency who in fact worked for the Mob in Miami.again, I thik the why will id the who-worked two Mafia hits and while we never id'd the trigger men we were able to id the sponsor's though no one would testify against them. I worry that the folks who did this keep sending us off to chase our own tails. I just don't think the Mob had the horsepower to control the investigations and the AGENCY AS A WHOLE was not involved though remember people are routinely "sheep dipped" and people like Harry Holmes continue to intrigue me. - lee Mac Wallace??? Wasn't he kind of a... xxxx up? He bungled the job on Henry Marshall horribly. Tried to set it up as a carbon monixide suicide but left a gash in Marshall's head, turned off the truck after the "suicide" and shot the victim 5 times with a bolt action rifle. He might have killed a lot of people for Johnson in Texas but I don't think he'd be trusted with anything of national scope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. Ashton Edited November 24, 2006 by Ashton Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) The CIA had been infiltrated by KGB officers. Well, ayup. And vice-versa. Since the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests, it wasn't terribly difficult to exchange personnel and information. Ashton Gray Ashton takes down his rifle, draws a bead, and scores a bullseye. As Ginsburg said. "The CIA, and the KGB keep each others secrets." "One mind, brute force, and full of money" HADDA BEEN PLAYING ON A JUKEBOX... Well this is new to me. Did the CIA and KGB merely cooperate or actually work together? Did they do foreign exchange student kinda swaps? I guess I'm confused about the statement that "the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests." Why would rich capitalists tolerate a communist form of gov't? Isn't that bad for business? They always play both sides of the game. You can put that in letters that would make the "HOLLYWOOD" sign look about the size of the print on the side-effects list from an Eli Lilly drug. And paint it bright red. And you wouldn't be overstating it. Ashton P.S. China is the second largest consumer of oil. Edited November 24, 2006 by Ashton Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 derived by local histogram equalisation to bring out detail irrespective of luminance. Then to simplify the pattern edge detection, followed by morphological erosion to bring out patterns that are otherwise lost in the normal values. the red line's just where I see a symmetry or mirror line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) remember these are three dimensional shapes. looks like bow waves and righthand spinning turbulance rope? Edited November 24, 2006 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Mac Wallace??? Wasn't he kind of a... xxxx up? He bungled the job on Henry Marshall horribly. Tried to set it up as a carbon monixide suicide but left a gash in Marshall's head, turned off the truck after the "suicide" and shot the victim 5 times with a bolt action rifle. He might have killed a lot of people for Johnson in Texas but I don't think he'd be trusted with anything of national scope. Hello Myra - this doesn't preclude his use as leverage to be used against Johnson if required. The Loy Factor account [Men on the Sixth [maybe Fifth] Floor] is quite compelling - plus the print studies. Use of Mac would be very intelligent if one wanted to ensure LBJ played ball. No time at the present, however, his description [horn rims, etc.] sounds too similar to what quite a few witnesses reported to simply discard. If we can credit Factor - then Wallace is working with a cell - which includes a cuban woman, and a possible Oswald double. The Sam Rayburn funeral is also an interesting connection. Plus - in hindsight, it doesn't really matter if he hit anything. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) Having spent the last few hours searching for a photo of the inside of the fence around this area (image- see arrow ) taken on the day (or at least year) with no luck, could someone tell me if one exists and if so where, or post, please. Otherwise please say if one does not exist. Edited November 24, 2006 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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