Who were the shooters?

[Ashton Gray]

But, but, but... But, Myra. It's only because I'm having a bad hair day. Surely that is something a lady can forgive.

Not really; I have bad hair years.

Je ne peux pas vous entendre avec ce chapeau dessus.

Alors vous devrez lire mes lèvres.

In a more serious vein, and with all due respect, it seems clear to me that anyone shooting from that lower DalTex window would have had to shoot through at least two, and perhaps three or even four other cars to hit Kennedy. I'm enclosing another image from the 3D model looking back up toward the DalTex building. Although the other vehicles are not in this view, I feel certain you are imaginative enough to put them there in your mind's eye. Then tell me what you think:

Hm, you may have a point. The two figures are on a low floor. So we'd (we ) need a side-view diagram with everyone in position for the shots from behind to see if the angles are possible. Hey! This is your area right? Can you provide evidence for my premise?

First I would have to be able to comprehend it. I failed. However! I did what I always do in such an emergency of comprehension: I improvised. In this case the improvosation took the form of dropping into the street a second limo (not a Cadillac, as it was in real life, though—sorry), two motorcycles, and two trailing cars, then swinging the virtual camera around inside the Dal-Tex building right to where the purported "shooter" (with or without the extra-baggage accomplice) is alleged to have been. And here is what I saw:

Would you take the shot?

As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more red herring. And, really, not even a very clever one.

Huh? Anyways, do you see the two figures in the window? Let's establish that much.

See image above. Does it really matter? (But to answer your question: no.)

Why, Myra, I'm shocked. Apparently you've abandoned reading my posts altogether, since the whole issue of the stampede up the knoll came about because I posited that the puff of smoke, and the ordering of all the personnel from the County Courts building into the same area behind the fence, was specifically and intentionally diversionary, to focus all attention exactly where the shooters warn't (as they say in my neck of the woods).

...Oops. Busted. Ok ok so I kinda scanned. My bad.

And this might surprise you: no shooters were found all up in there where the crowd and police surged.

What? So the shooters didn't loll around waiting for the welcome wagon to arrive? As you'd say, "shocking." And downright rude. I mean that's just not good manners.

Did you notice that every vehicle including the press bus had already passed? That indicates that some seconds went by before people started charging the knoll. And I suspect that the shooters had escape routes. In addition, early knoll chargers were greeted with the bogus SS men who showed weapons and told people to turn back. Not surprisingly, they did. So the knoll shooter(s) had plenty of time to bolt.

Uh-huh. Certainly did. And I certainly did read everything you wrote that followed where I've stopped quoting you. (I didn't just "scan" what you wrote—unlike some hatless people I know of, who shall remain unnamed. A-hem.)

The reason I've stopped quoting you here—and I'll beg your pardon for it—is gently to direct your attention to the rather nondescript edifice in the top portion of this image:

That is what is often referred to, I believe, as the "switching tower." It was manned that day. There is a witness who was there in it throughout the fell events of the noon hour. And after my having taken a virtual look from that location, I'm afraid that all your very well-formed and well-stated arguments fell on somewhat deaf ears (it might be the hat). But, please: you take a look for yourself at what could be viewed in a sweep from that tower, and tell me how likely it is, to you, that an organized group of professional killers would have selected the "behind the fence" area as a sniper's lair:

And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

And with a respectful tip o' my hat, I remain, as sometimes,

Ashton

[Myra Bronstein]

Ok, replying to myself, there is more discussion on the problematic angle from the second floor Dal-Tex bldg. in this thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5149&st=15.

This quote from GPH... FWIW:

"I also asked Oliver: That since the exterior shots of Stanley and the black kid would be filmed at a time when the dozen or so motorcade cycles weren't to be filmed -- could we please have both a scoped rifle & a "iron-sights" rifle [mounted with cameras] used during the next motorcade cycle. I told him that it would be quite interesting to see [as I suspected] that any 2nd floor DalTex window shooter would have had NO SHOT at JFK after the turn in front of the TSBD.

When he inquired as to my theory, I responded that: With the "J/Canoe" now going downhill, the Secret Service "outriders" would have totally blocked any rear-view of JFK !!

("Theory...")

Then Lee says:

"Perhaps the SS blocking the shot had something to do with a botched shot that ended up hitting the curb by Tague? Elm has a very serious pitch and curve to it. The 2nd floor of the DalTex would literally provide a small 'window' of opportunity seems to me.

The inset is a crop from the Altgens 6 - maybe there is a face in the bottom right of the window. The radio seems consistent with one of those sliver Motorola Slimline 220s."

(Hope you don't mind me quoting you Lee.)

So getting back to the point of this thread, which is about shooters and locations, do other people see men, including one with a rifle, in the attached photo?"

(Oh, I should admit that I stole the photo from Lee too.)

Edited November 29, 2006 by Myra Bronstein

[Ashton Gray]

As I indicated in my post, I don't discount shots from the County Courts Building.

I mistook your meaning (in several places, in several ways), and the onus is entirely on me.

...I just calls 'em like I sees 'em, & I don't care if anyone thinks I'm stepping on their toes.

My next glass of whatever is handy will be raised in toast to you for calling 'em like you sees 'em. And you may have noticed that I don't excel in the toes-avoidance dances, either.

There's been a mis-understanding here, for which I take full responsibility.

I should have stated: "...but it is another thing for the conspirators to BET THEIR LIVES

on such a nebulous occurence."

Thank you for your ready willingness to bear responsibility for the misunderstanding, but it was my own haste on a busy afternoon that caused it.

[AG]: And I think I'll just go on standing right where I am anyway. I'm kind of enjoying the view and counting the passersby who keep telling me I should move along.

[CV]: This passerby wants you to stay put, but I'm only pointing out a flaw in your argument -- who in their right mind is going to risk the gallows on the ASSUMPTION that all those people are going to bite on this "puff of smoke" mis-direction you posit?

Cliff, I have not ever said, nor have I even suggested, nor do I believe, that a smoke pot firing behind the fence was supposed to be the be-all and end-all of misdirection and confusion. The police chief himself ordered a throng of people to rush in that direction, and at almost the same time several police emergencies were being called in (including a YMCA bomb threat if I recall correctly), while another hubbub was being created around the entrance to the TSBD, and lord knows what other psy-ops were being conducted—all into a crowd of eyewitnesses in some stage of shock.

We ALL know they charged the knoll. That's not the issue.

Are you trying to say I can just rest my case now?

You haven't shown your hand down, yet.

Your hole cards: the number of people who testified to seeing the puff of smoke on the knoll.

Bet you didn't know I had The Tower card up my sleeve, did you? (Did Myra fold?)

My hole cards: the number of people who heard gun shots from the knoll.

Better peek at that card again. I think you're holding sounds that could have been gun shots, reported primarily by people who wouldn't be expected to know—and even then uncertain of the point of origin. (Pssst: the cards are marked.)

I'm all in, Ashton. Sure you wanna call?

Tell you what: I'll call as soon as you tell me what the policeman burned his hand on when he vaulted over the fence.

Ashton

[Myra Bronstein]

Huh? Anyways, do you see the two figures in the window? Let's establish that much.

See image above. Does it really matter? (But to answer your question: no.)

Hm, taking a tip from Don's (old?) sig line:

"Because of the photograph taken by AP photographer James Altgens seeming to show a rifle shaped object protruding from the second floor window of the Dal-Tex building, several Warren report critics (including myself) felt that was a probably a firing point for one or two shots. The committee has made available to me the original Altgens negative. Using my technique of vario-density eynexing, I was able to enhance the image in the window to the point of clarity where window is now identifiable as a black man leaning the window sill with both hands, and with no gun in view."

ROBERT GRODEN, his HSCA-documented comments about the panels report, 1979"

I went here to see the whole report:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca...denComments.pdf

Does anyone have a copy of the Groden photo of "a black man leaning [on] the window sill [of Dal-Tex floor 2 by fire escape on Nov 22, '63] with both hands, and with no gun in view"?

More from Groden's report:

ATTACHMENT 3: SUSPECTED FIRING POINTS IN THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY, AS THEY RELATE TO THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE

There are nearly 2 dozen suspected firing points in Dealey Plaza that have been raised by Warren report critics through the years. Of these, several are worthy of close inspection for they may be candidates of probable sources of shots within the plaza. Some of the 2 dozen:

1. The TSBD easternmost sixth floor window facing south (the "Oswald" window).

2. The TSBD roof.

3. The TSBD seventh floor.

4. The TSBD fourth floor, third pair from the left (west) end.

5. The TSBD westernmost pair of sixth floor windows facing south.

6. The Dal-Tex building second floor.

7. The Dal-Tex building third floor.

8. The Dal-Tex building third floor. (any of the top three).

9. Dal-Tex roof.

10. The county records building roof.

11. The county records building second floor.

12. The stockade fence on top of the "grassy knoll".

13. The cement retaining wall in front of the stockade fence.

14. In front of the cement structure on the knoll at the end of the stockade fence (northeastern end).

15. The railroad overpass.

16. A storm drain at the north curb of Elm Street.

17. The "umbrella man".

18. The "south knoll" (the grassy knoll on the south side of the plaza on Commerce Street).

Nos. 1 thru 11 were to the President's rear, 12 thru 16 were to his right front, 17 stated at tile front and ended to the rear as the car passed by, and 18 was to the President's left front.

1. Was almost certainly a firing point. If the "Oswald" window was used during the assassination, whether by Lee Oswald or any one else, (this remains to be proven), it is logical to assume that there would be from this window. This would be consistent with a prearranged scenario as well with the official version of the crime. The film taken by Charles Bronson may show a dummy snipers nest for a cover story being constructed just 7 minutes before the shots were fired.

2. and 3. are possible alternatives to 1 but with far less opportunity for interruption by a bystander as was always a possibility at the "Oswald" window. There were reports of a rifle being found at 2 and 3 was not even searched.

4. Is considered by Dr. Cyril Wecht because of the angle of bullet trajectory from that point.

5. Is the point where witness Arnold Rowland saw two men with a rifle Just before the assassination but thought that they were Secret Service agents. There was also what appeared to be a bullet mark on the north sidewalk of Elm Street (since removed) that lined up with this window.

6. Because of of photograph taken by A.P. photographer, James Altgens seeming to show a rifle shaped object protruding from the second floor window of the Dal-Tex building, several Warren report critics (including myself) felt that was a propably a firing point for one or two shots. The committee has made available to me the original Altgens negative. Using my technique of vario-density eynexing, I was able to enhance the image in the window to the point of clarity where window is now identifiable as a black man leaning the window sill with both hands, and with no gun in view.

7. Has been charged as a firing point for the same reason as window 6. Using the VDC technique. I feel that the window was closed and I can find no evidence of any shots from that window.

8, 9. and 10. are strong interchangeable possibilities for one or two of the shots from the rear. Either President Kennedy's or Governor Connally's back wounds or the President's rear entering head wound. These angles are much closer to the alleged trajectory (rear to front) than the depository points 1 to 5.

11. Only one man Hugh McDonald has mentioned this as a firing point. Logistically, it simply could not I have been. The angles and line sight won't line up to any traceable shot.

12. The committee's acoustic panel has presented corroborative evidence to support the photographic evidence that this was in fact a firing point. A figure can be seen in both the second Moorman Polaroid photograph (clearly showing a figure in the area directly behind the stockade fence), 8 feet to the left of the corner of the fence), and the closing few dozen frames of the Zapruder film also seem to show a figure in the same spot. Independently, the sound tapes from the stuck transmitter place a firing point in this exact position, as do a great deal of eye and ear witnesses to the shooting.

13. Appears in a long list of films and photographs: (a) the fifth Phil Willis slide; ( the Hugh Betzner photo corresponding to Willis No. 5; © ,the Abraham Zapruder film frances in the area surrounding and including No. 413; (d) the Orville Nix film in shadow near the left edge of the retaining wall; and (e) the Marie Muchmore film for one frame at the extreme top of the frame.

14. After the shooting, a large crowd of spectators chased this man, who some thought was a gunman, back into the parking lot where he disappeared, and where a man with false Secret Service identification was encountered. In items a and c, a shape appearing to be a weapon or rifle-shaped object is noted being held by this man. The HSCA photo panel has determined that this is indeed a human shape.

Appears in the Orville Nix film for an entire sequence and can be seen in motion. Stereo pairs show this shape to have three dimensions, and to be in the plaza in front of the concretes structure with the "left arm" portion extending beyond the edge of the wall. There are similar patches of light and shadow visible on the wall in the next sequence that give the impression that this shape was only shadows. It was not. These remaining shadows lack the coloring and texture of the image itself.

15. There is no photographic evidence of an assassin at this point.

16. There is no photographic evidence of an assassin at this point.

17. It seems unlikely that a shot could have come from this point.

18. Two Dallas doctors noted an entrance wound in the President's left temple. I have also noted in autopsy photograph No. 29 and the front view X-ray that there seems to be such a bullet wound in evidence. If there was, then this probably came from the area of the southern grassy knoll. The only photographic evidence of a shot from this point is the Cancellare photograph. It shows a shape that appears to be a man holding what appears to be a rifle on top of the knoll near a tree just seconds after the shots were fired. However, this shape is far too vague to be considered proof of a gunman and must be considered with its limitations.

It is my opinion that Nos. 1, 9, 10, 12 13, and 18 are the most likely candidates for firing points as well as either 2, 3, 4, 5, or 8 (one of these).

It is also my opinion that only four of the above or at the most five are truly candidates for firing points and that No. 14 was a probability who never fired a shot. The rest on the list I cannot believe to be points where shots came from on the basis of photographic evidence as well as other physical evidence.

Ok, so Groden doesn't mention the Tower. That can be added in, then suspected firing points can be checked and some eliminated, and it'll be all figured out. It's just that easy.

Lee Forman

post Jan 6 2006, 12:20 AM

Post #4

Super Member

****

Group: JFK

Posts: 1449

Joined: 28-April 04

Member No.: 675

I continue to plagiarize, Lee again:

"Wichita Eagle - 11/23

"The charge was filed against Lee Harvey Oswald, 24. Officers said he was the man who hid on the 5th floor of a textbook warehouse..."

"The fatal shots came from the second floor..."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5783

Lee? Do you still have that article???

Bet you didn't know I had The Tower card up my sleeve, did you? (Did Myra fold?)

Hey!

I don't fold I bluff.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Myra Bronstein

[Lee Forman]

Ashton,

How about a view from where I have indicated. The bushes at the North Peristyle.

- lee

[Myra Bronstein]

Alors vous devrez lire mes lèvres.

Il n'y aura aucun nouvel impôt?

First I would have to be able to comprehend it. I failed. However! I did what I always do in such an emergency of comprehension: I improvised. In this case the improvosation took the form of dropping into the street a second limo (not a Cadillac, as it was in real life, though—sorry), two motorcycles, and two trailing cars, then swinging the virtual camera around inside the Dal-Tex building right to where the purported "shooter" (with or without the extra-baggage accomplice) is alleged to have been. And here is what I saw:

Would you take the shot?

Only if I was really pissed off at James Tague.

Dang you do mighty fine work though. Nice perspective.

The reason I've stopped quoting you here—and I'll beg your pardon for it—is gently to direct your attention to the rather nondescript edifice in the top portion of this image:

That is what is often referred to, I believe, as the "switching tower." It was manned that day. There is a witness who was there in it throughout the fell events of the noon hour. And after my having taken a virtual look from that location, I'm afraid that all your very well-formed and well-stated arguments fell on somewhat deaf ears (it might be the hat). But, please: you take a look for yourself at what could be viewed in a sweep from that tower, and tell me how likely it is, to you, that an organized group of professional killers would have selected the "behind the fence" area as a sniper's lair:

Uh, the knoll fence? Likely.

And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Was there such an order? Can you please site a source?

Are you suggesting that the assassins were trying to flush out the witness to the assassination to nail them in the parking lot?

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Ashton,

As regards the size of the trees you may be absolutely right.

Beautiful pictures? - You're right, they're beautiful but are they accurate?

Your work and I mean WORK is superb and evidence

of long hours of painstaking labour.

I knock my images off in a matter of seconds.

I congratulate you on your undoubted expertise.

EBC

[Lee Forman]

Lee Forman

post Jan 6 2006, 12:20 AM

Post #4

Super Member

****

Group: JFK

Posts: 1449

Joined: 28-April 04

Member No.: 675

I continue to plagiarize, Lee again:

"Wichita Eagle - 11/23

"The charge was filed against Lee Harvey Oswald, 24. Officers said he was the man who hid on the 5th floor of a textbook warehouse..."

"The fatal shots came from the second floor..."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5783

Lee? Do you still have that article???

Hi Myra - feel free to use anything I have ever posted - it's normal for me to cite a reference. No plagiarism involved. Yes - I still have that article. Let me dig for it.

Hmm...I'm not finding the part about the 2nd floor. Wow. I just found it. Very peculiar. There appears to have been 2 different editions that day of the same paper - phew - good thing I had more than one copy. Thought I had made an error. This is rich, check it out. Changed from SECOND floor to FIFTH floor, and added a blurb on Oswald. To make it fit, they had to remove the 'Wire News' in the 'Eagle Highlights' section.

Thanks for the exercise Myra - I enjoyed that. BTW - I think I did a thread, or added to a thread someplace, in which I attempted to compile material which indicated the 5th floor, as opposed to the 6th. It still my impression that there may have been more than one shooting party in the TSBD, on different floors, and including the use of a decoy.

In rereading some of these old newspapers it's pretty clear that the backyard photos were instantly used to tie Oswald to the gun. Fingerprints were never even required.

Found a good one for Greg Parker - maybe I'll dump it here - just being lazy.

- lee

Two other pieces - you don't need the bit on the Japanese make of the rifle do you? That will take another scan.

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton,

How about a view from where I have indicated. The bushes at the North Peristyle.

- lee

There are bushes all along the front of the North Peristyle, Lee. I don't mind taking a look as soon as I have a few minutes, but can you give me a location that's a little more specific?

Ashton

[Lee Forman]

Ashton,

How about a view from where I have indicated. The bushes at the North Peristyle.

- lee

There are bushes all along the front of the North Peristyle, Lee. I don't mind taking a look as soon as I have a few minutes, but can you give me a location that's a little more specific?

Ashton

Sure

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7739

- lee

[Guest John Gillespie]

Ashton,

How about a view from where I have indicated. The bushes at the North Peristyle.

- lee

There are bushes all along the front of the North Peristyle, Lee. I don't mind taking a look as soon as I have a few minutes, but can you give me a location that's a little more specific?

Ashton

____________________________

Bushes...too damn many of them in Texas.

Two other pieces - you don't need the bit on the Japanese make of the rifle do you? That will take another scan.

_____________________________

I presume none missed the nugget: "The motorcade slowed (emphasis added) and then sped forward..." in the first (colorized yellow) article. All kinds of nuggets and gems here. Thanks, as always.

JG

[Ashton Gray]

Alors vous devrez lire mes lèvres.

Il n'y aura aucun nouvel impôt?

Yes. There will be no new taxes on lip reading. (For some reason that I simply cannot fathom, Babelfish can't translate that.)

First I would have to be able to comprehend it. I failed. However! I did what I always do in such an emergency of comprehension: I improvised. In this case the improvosation took the form of dropping into the street a second limo (not a Cadillac, as it was in real life, though—sorry), two motorcycles, and two trailing cars, then swinging the virtual camera around inside the Dal-Tex building right to where the purported "shooter" (with or without the extra-baggage accomplice) is alleged to have been. And here is what I saw:

Would you take the shot?

Only if I was really pissed off at James Tague.

<RIM SHOT, CYMBAL CRASH> Good one, Myra.

By the way, I'm quoting liberally (an adverb expressing quantity, not political leanings) and reproducing the images for continuity of discussion about these issues, which I consider to be of some appreciable significance:

The reason I've stopped quoting you here—and I'll beg your pardon for it—is gently to direct your attention to the rather nondescript edifice in the top portion of this image:

That is what is often referred to, I believe, as the "switching tower." It was manned that day. There is a witness who was there in it throughout the fell events of the noon hour. And after my having taken a virtual look from that location, I'm afraid that all your very well-formed and well-stated arguments fell on somewhat deaf ears (it might be the hat). But, please: you take a look for yourself at what could be viewed in a sweep from that tower, and tell me how likely it is, to you, that an organized group of professional killers would have selected the "behind the fence" area as a sniper's lair:

Uh, the knoll fence? Likely.

With a manned watch tower only 250 feet away—at your back, no less—that not only can see you, but has a 360° view of every possible escape route? And with the Sherriff's department (in the County Courts building) only about 350 feet away, directly in front of you, with at least 40 different windows looking down on your position?

So if I undertand you correctly, that's a place you'd consider "likely" to be picked by professional snipers to shoot from in order to murder the President of the United States in broad daylight—and be able to stroll away, rifle in hand?

Well, Myra, you have an uncanny knack for leaving me almost speechless. (I can only hope other forum members don't start to catch on to how you do it.)

But, even if I'm a glutton for punishment, I sure would like to know where this admirably brazen gun-totin' assassin went. Up in a puff of smoke? And while we're on the subject of puffs of smoke, I think I'll light up (yes, and with my hat on, too) and pose this conundrum to you:

1) Given that it has been rather thoroughly established that this event took place well along into the modern era of smokeless gunpowder (there's a whole thread on this subject), and,

2) if—as it seems you contend—the serendipitously timed infamous puff of smoke from the knoll fence area was not a premeditated, carefully timed diversion, and,

3) if the smoke did not come from the firing of a gun there, then:

just where did this spontaneous puff of smoke come from—right at that pregnant moment—and how, and why?

The question demands an answer from any serious researcher.

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Was there such an order? Can you please site a source?

Yes, ma'am, I can, thanks to the always perspicacious Steve Thomas. Below is what he graciously posted in response to a question I had posed on that count. You can find his original message in context in the thread Order in the Courts! The Riddle of the Court Jesters. Meanwhile, this is what he posted there, and it certainly bears repeating here:

Here is a transcript of what Sheriff Decker broadcast over Channel 2 of the Dallas Police Department at 12:30 from Chief Curry's lead car:

"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."

Here is what was broadcast by the Sheriff's Department dispatcher at 12:30:40:

"Stand by 1. All units and officers in the vicinity of the station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area just north of Elm."

Hope that helps.

Steve Thomas

It helped me a great deal, and I found it of great interest that the highly compressed incident contains a beautiful overlay of confusion between the Dallas Police Chief, Jesse E. Curry, and the Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker: We have Sheriff Decker broadcasting orders from Police Chief Curry's car. Has your head stopped spinning yet? If not, I'm happy to wait.

Now, without going off into the relationship of these two men to Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell (elsewhere Earle Cabell—brother of CIA's own Charles Cabell, who had been heavily involved in the Bay of Pigs, and subsequently given the boot by JFK), please note that Decker says "have my office [in the County Courts building] move all available men out of my office." And where does he order them to go? He orders them out of the County Courts building—A in the graphic below—and into the "railroad yard"—B in the graphic below—with instructions (and please read the next phrase carefully, several times) for them "to try to determine what happened in there." Here is the graphic:

To "try to determine what happened in there"? At almost the instant of the shooting, who has determined that something "happened in there"?

I'll tell you what "happened in there": a lot of smoke, that's what "happened in there."

Are you suggesting that the assassins were trying to flush out the witness to the assassination to nail them in the parking lot?

(That repititious clunking sound is just my head on the desk. Almost knocked my hat off, too.)

No, Myra. No. No, I'm not remotely suggesting that. I'm sorry that I've been so opaque and impenetrable. It was not my intent. Here's what I'm suggesting, in plain words, as my opinions on all the foregoing:

• • The County Courts building/complex was the location of a primary shooter, probably who delivered the head shot.
  • The County Courts building/complex was emptied specifically to provide a perfect cover for the shooter, likely in uniform, to leave the building without arousing the least suspicion—even if carrying a weapon.
  • Everyone was sent to the "railroad track area just north of Elm" specifically and maliciously because not a damned thing had "happened in there" except a puff of smoke and maybe some loud reports, and because it was away from the escape routes of the shooters.
  • Decker was in cahoots with Cabell & Cabell (and you can climb that ladder right on up the food chain as high as you care to, or not).
  

And just in case you missed my earlier point (I couldn't tell if you were joking or not), I did not bring up the tower as a shooter's location. I brought it up because the presence of a manned observation tower directly behind the knoll fence area makes the entire idea of a professional sniper back there just fall-down funny to me. (So much for badge men, dog men, invisible men, Indian rope trick men, and little green men extracted from golfball-sized grain in fifth-generation photos.)

And not to go all opaque and impenetrable on yer ass again or anything, but I'm going to add here—inscrutably enough and seemingly disconnected enough, perhaps—that I believe that the uniform J.D. Tippit was carrying factors into this exact scenario, as does the uniform worn by the "deputy" seen coming down the stairs in the TSBD by three people as the so-called "first deputy on the scene" was going up those same stairs.

And there's still the problem of what the officer burned his hand on when he vaulted over the fence.

Ain't we got fun.

Ashton

Edited November 29, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Michael G. Smith]

Alors vous devrez lire mes lèvres.

Il n'y aura aucun nouvel impôt?

Yes. There will be no new taxes on lip reading. (For some reason that I simply cannot fathom, Babelfish can't translate that.)

First I would have to be able to comprehend it. I failed. However! I did what I always do in such an emergency of comprehension: I improvised. In this case the improvosation took the form of dropping into the street a second limo (not a Cadillac, as it was in real life, though—sorry), two motorcycles, and two trailing cars, then swinging the virtual camera around inside the Dal-Tex building right to where the purported "shooter" (with or without the extra-baggage accomplice) is alleged to have been. And here is what I saw:

Would you take the shot?

Only if I was really pissed off at James Tague.

<RIM SHOT, CYMBAL CRASH> Good one, Myra.

By the way, I'm quoting liberally (an adverb expressing quantity, not political leanings) and reproducing the images for continuity of discussion about these issues, which I consider to be of some appreciable significance:

The reason I've stopped quoting you here—and I'll beg your pardon for it—is gently to direct your attention to the rather nondescript edifice in the top portion of this image:

That is what is often referred to, I believe, as the "switching tower." It was manned that day. There is a witness who was there in it throughout the fell events of the noon hour. And after my having taken a virtual look from that location, I'm afraid that all your very well-formed and well-stated arguments fell on somewhat deaf ears (it might be the hat). But, please: you take a look for yourself at what could be viewed in a sweep from that tower, and tell me how likely it is, to you, that an organized group of professional killers would have selected the "behind the fence" area as a sniper's lair:

Uh, the knoll fence? Likely.

With a manned watch tower only 250 feet away—at your back, no less—that not only can see you, but has a 360° view of every possible escape route? And with the Sherriff's department (in the County Courts building) only about 350 feet away, directly in front of you, with at least 40 different windows looking down on your position?

So if I undertand you correctly, that's a place you'd consider "likely" to be picked by professional snipers to shoot from in order to murder the President of the United States in broad daylight—and be able to stroll away, rifle in hand?

Well, Myra, you have an uncanny knack for leaving me almost speechless. (I can only hope other forum members don't start to catch on to how you do it.)

But, even if I'm a glutton for punishment, I sure would like to know where this admirably brazen gun-totin' assassin went. Up in a puff of smoke? And while we're on the subject of puffs of smoke, I think I'll light up (yes, and with my hat on, too) and pose this conundrum to you:

1) Given that it has been rather thoroughly established that this event took place well along into the modern era of smokeless gunpowder (there's a whole thread on this subject), and,

2) if—as it seems you contend—the serendipitously timed infamous puff of smoke from the knoll fence area was not a premeditated, carefully timed diversion, and,

3) if the smoke did not come from the firing of a gun there, then:

just where did this spontaneous puff of smoke come from—right at that pregnant moment—and how, and why?

The question demands an answer from any serious researcher.

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Was there such an order? Can you please site a source?

Yes, ma'am, I can, thanks to the always perspicacious Steve Thomas. Below is what he graciously posted in response to a question I had posed on that count. You can find his original message in context in the thread Order in the Courts! The Riddle of the Court Jesters. Meanwhile, this is what he posted there, and it certainly bears repeating here:

Here is a transcript of what Sheriff Decker broadcast over Channel 2 of the Dallas Police Department at 12:30 from Chief Curry's lead car:

"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."

Here is what was broadcast by the Sheriff's Department dispatcher at 12:30:40:

"Stand by 1. All units and officers in the vicinity of the station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area just north of Elm."

Hope that helps.

Steve Thomas

It helped me a great deal, and I found it of great interest that the highly compressed incident contains a beautiful overlay of confusion between the Dallas Police Chief, Jesse E. Curry, and the Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker: We have Sheriff Decker broadcasting orders from Police Chief Curry's car. Has your head stopped spinning yet? If not, I'm happy to wait.

Now, without going off into the relationship of these two men to Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell (elsewhere Earle Cabell—brother of CIA's own Charles Cabell, who had been heavily involved in the Bay of Pigs, and subsequently given the boot by JFK), please note that Decker says "have my office [in the County Courts building] move all available men out of my office." And where does he order them to go? He orders them out of the County Courts building—A in the graphic below—and into the "railroad yard"—B in the graphic below—with instructions (and please read the next phrase carefully, several times) for them "to try to determine what happened in there." Here is the graphic:

To "try to determine what happened in there"? At almost the instant of the shooting, who has determined that something "happened in there"?

I'll tell you what "happened in there": a lot of smoke, that's what "happened in there."

Are you suggesting that the assassins were trying to flush out the witness to the assassination to nail them in the parking lot?

(That repititious clunking sound is just my head on the desk. Almost knocked my hat off, too.)

No, Myra. No. No, I'm not remotely suggesting that. I'm sorry that I've been so opaque and impenetrable. It was not my intent. Here's what I'm suggesting, in plain words, as my opinions on all the foregoing:

• • The County Courts building/complex was the location of a primary shooter, probably who delivered the head shot.
  • The County Courts building/complex was emptied specifically to provide a perfect cover for the shooter, likely in uniform, to leave the building without arousing the least suspicion—even if carrying a weapon.
  • Everyone was sent to the "railroad track area just north of Elm" specifically and maliciously because not a damned thing had "happened in there" except a puff of smoke and maybe some loud reports, and because it was away from the escape routes of the shooters.
  • Decker was in cahoots with Cabell & Cabell (and you can climb that ladder right on up the food chain as high as you care to, or not).
  

And just in case you missed my earlier point (I couldn't tell if you were joking or not), I did not bring up the tower as a shooter's location. I brought it up because the presence of a manned observation tower directly behind the knoll fence area makes the entire idea of a professional sniper back there just fall-down funny to me. (So much for badge men, dog men, invisible men, Indian rope trick men, and little green men extracted from golfball-sized grain in fifth-generation photos.)

And not to go all opaque and impenetrable on yer ass again or anything, but I'm going to add here—inscrutably enough and seemingly disconnected enough, perhaps—that I believe that the uniform J.D. Tippit was carrying factors into this exact scenario, as does the uniform worn by the "deputy" seen coming down the stairs in the TSBD by three people as the so-called "first deputy on the scene" was going up those same stairs.

And there's still the problem of what the officer burned his hand on when he vaulted over the fence.

Ain't we got fun.

Ashton

This is a great thread! Ashton, thanks for the DP images. They are wonderful! Im sure i can speak for us all on that. I have always felt that there had to be roof shooters involved. A very logical place. Pretty much out of sight, fire escapes [im pretty sure] on all buildings, plus they also must have had access to the roof from inside also. You would have had a perfect sight to all of the motocade as it passed through DP. I posted a thread not long ago about film that was taken by Mr. Ernie Mentesana right after the shooting that showed Dallas police examining a rife that supposedly was removed from the TSBD roof. It surely wasnt a MAN/CAR, as it had no scope, and no sling. I cant remember where i saw pictures from his film. The police were either examining the rifle on the TSBD fire escape, or just when they got on the ground from the fire escape. I wondered in my last post if anybody knew what had happened to Mr. Mentesanas film, and why we didnt hear much about the "roof" gun. I believe there was also a shell casing found on the roof of the Records Building in the 70's on the roof edge under the tarpaper by an air conditioner repairman [ i believe]. Your posting about having the Courts Building emptied, and having a shooter in uniform leaving the building sure would be a good cover for escape after shooting from the roof. What are your thoughts on that? Makes alot of sense to me. By the way, when you are done everybody elses images, you can do the veiws from all the roofs of all the buildings for me! LOL!

thanks, Smitty

[Cliff Varnell]

And the throat wound, Ashton?

Can you honestly argue that that was an exit wound?

[cue "Jaws"]

[Mark Stapleton]

Ashton,

I like your thinking here (and your graphics), although there are some questions. Just one for starters: If the knoll smoke was an elaborate diversion, what about Julianne Mercer's statement that she saw someone resembling Ruby helping to deliver what appeared to be rifles to the area in question earlier that morning?

I agree that Decker's order to move his men out of his (County Courts building) office is interesting, and could have been a neat way of shepherding a shooter to safety.

Great thread.