Maurice Bishop = David Atlee Phillips

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:39 AM, Paul Brancato said:

All the CIA-did-it CTers have for argument's anymore are INSULTS.

It is a dying CT. Obviously.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Please run my quote accurately

[Andrej Stancak]

Paul:

the question is if the assassination plot was a local, single-limb or a multi-limb affair. I am afraid we do not know all what we need to decide. Frustrations from not being able to elucidate the aspects of the case we would wish to know create anger and denial, basically negative emotions. I hope very much that the new documents to be released in October will shed light on what was the role of intelligence in the assassination plot. The intelligence (ONI, FBI, CIA - e.g., Phillips) certainly had something to do with Oswald on a long term basis. I would give credit to the work of, among others, Peter Dale Scott, John Newman, and Dick Russel who did find a number of connecting lines of national intelligence unis with Oswald. The Raleigh call - that certainly pointed to Oswald's intelligence connections. Scott's assertion that Oswald worked for the intelligence by actually working for a private intelligence organisation (Banister?) which was tasked by the government/FBI/CIA/ONI would make a very good sense. Oswald (and also Ron Lewis or Richard Nagell) thought he worked for the government.

There cannot be any dispute that local elements, particularly the Dallas police, had a major role in framing and silencing Oswald and maybe even killing the President. They were also right-wing, segregationist, anti-communist, Birchers', KKKs, Minutemen.  If they would act alone, that would assume that the intelligence forces lost any interest in Oswald after the September Mexico trip, and he was left at disposal to the local plotters. How and whether the local plotters were at some point coordinated with the intelligence is not known, however, it is likely. Oswald was likely left in piece after Mexico to avoid being flagged up and eliminated from the plot due to his publicity (Simpich) which would make the appearance that only the local forces were responsible. 

The true links between various limbs were not known to the individual plotters themselves. As Walter Brown describes in the book you often advocates (Treachery in Dallas), the different limbs actually did not know about each other, and therefore sometimes it looked as if the Dallas Police and the FBI stood against each other whilst in fact both these institutions had at least a foreknowledge and did everything to cover up all the details of the assassination. 

Why not wait for new documents and decide then what were the roles of local and national intelligence organisations in the plot? In the meantime, I would like to thank you for emphasising the local limb of the assassination which is your important contribution to the forum discussions.

P.S.

By the way, an interesting three-part video series popped up recently. If true, it certainly supports Bishop-Oswald connections.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKw_ELuXYj8

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Michael Clark]

"George Bush and the Secret Service were registered at the Dallas Sheraton Hotel (400 Ri8-6200) on November 21-22, 1963. (20)

Possibly more significant is that is where on November 21,1963 the White House Security Agency (WHSA) set up a radio communications center and secure trunk lines that the president, Secret Service and other security personnel used when the president was in town."

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-southland-center-revisted-w-new.html?m=1

As I mentioned earlier, Ruby and George Senator went to a cafe called the  Southland Hotel cafe in the pre dawn hours of 11-23-63. Earlier in this thread, Jack White says that it needs to be sorted out where that cafe was.

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

the question is if the assassination plot was a local, single-limb or a multi-limb affair. I am afraid we do not know all what we need to decide. Frustrations from not being able to elucidate the aspects of the case we would wish to know create anger and denial, basically negative emotions. I hope very much that the new documents to be released in October will shed light on what was the role of intelligence in the assassination plot. The intelligence (ONI, FBI, CIA - e.g., Phillips) certainly had something to do with Oswald on a long term basis. I would give credit to the work of, among others, Peter Dale Scott, John Newman, and Dick Russel who did find a number of connecting lines of national intelligence unis with Oswald. The Raleigh call - that certainly pointed to Oswald's intelligence connections. Scott's assertion that Oswald worked for the intelligence by actually working for a private intelligence organisation (Banister?) which was tasked by the government/FBI/CIA/ONI would make a very good sense. Oswald (and also Ron Lewis or Richard Nagell) thought he worked for the government.

There cannot be any dispute that local elements, particularly the Dallas police, had a major role in framing and silencing Oswald and maybe even killing the President. They were also right-wing, segregationist, anti-communist, Birchers', KKKs, Minutemen.  If they would act alone, that would assume that the intelligence forces lost any interest in Oswald after the September Mexico trip, and he was left at disposal to the local plotters. How and whether the local plotters were at some point coordinated with the intelligence is not known, however, it is likely. Oswald was likely left in piece after Mexico to avoid being flagged up and eliminated from the plot due to his publicity (Simpich) which would make the appearance that only the local forces were responsible. 

The true links between various limbs were not known to the individual plotters themselves. As Walter Brown describes in the book you often advocates (Treachery in Dallas), the different limbs actually did not know about each other, and therefore sometimes it looked as if the Dallas Police and the FBI stood against each other whilst in fact both these institutions had at least a foreknowledge and did everything to cover up all the details of the assassination. 

Why not wait for new documents and decide then what were the roles of local and national intelligence organisations in the plot? In the meantime, I would like to thank you for emphasising the local limb of the assassination which is your important contribution to the forum discussions.

P.S.

By the way, an interesting three-part video series popped up recently. If true, it certainly supports Bishop-Oswald connections.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKw_ELuXYj8

 

Andrej,

I agree with most of what you said here -- with only some minor diversity:

(1) I agree that the problem of the degree of local plot, simple plot, complex plot or external plot still has much energy.

(2) I agree that no consensus yet exists within the CT community on these points.

(3) I agree that we should strive to minimize our anger at each other over this fact of life.

(4) I also hope that the new documents to be released by October 2017 will shed new light the case.

(5) I believe many CTers will be surprised to learn that the locus of the JFK plot was Dallas, and not Langley.

(6) While LHO was evidently involved with the ONI in the USSR, and was also involved with David Atlee Phillips in New Orleans, Mexico City and Dallas, nevertheless, it remains clear that LHO was never offered a full-time job with US Intelligence, but always remained at best a trainee (ONI) or a mercenary (CIA).  LHO was never a CIA Agent -- but LHO was a CIA-wannabe.

(7) If I am correct, then there was no role of US Intelligence in the JFK assassination plot.

(8) There were rogues in the CIA who were involved -- and who even confessed -- namely, Howard Hunt and David Morales.  They were not very highly placed.

(9) On the contrary, recent FOIA releases of CIA documents published by Bill Simpich (2014) reveal that the CIA was dumbfounded by the Impersonation of LHO in Mexico City, linking his name with Valeriy Kostikov   This impersonation was known by the CIA 15 minutes after the impersonation occurred.  A CIA Mole Hunt began immediately and was never solved.  This, IMHO, proves the CIA innocence in the framing of LHO in the JFK assassination. 

(10) Whoever impersonated LHO in Mexico City was inside the CIA, but working for a CIVILIAN plot, localized in Dallas, with a limb in New Orleans.  Dallas remains the locus of the JFK plot.  This is what I believe will be revealed in October, 2017.

(11) Joan Mellen named several people who were mercenaries for the CIA who confessed to a role in the JFK assassination -- but I will insist on the fact that they were mercenaries, and not CIA Agents.  I think Joan Mellen glosses over this crucial fact.  Frank Sturgis, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin, Thomas Beckham, David Ferrie, Carlos Bringiuer, Eladio Del Valle, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, William Seymour, and so many others -- they all confessed at some point to some role in the JFK saga, but they were all mercenaries, and would fight for any anti-Castro group -- they weren't CIA Agents.

(12)  I agree that Dick Russell did brilliant work.  Yet what I take away from the mysterious Richard Case Nagell is that LHO was never a CIA Agent.

 (13) I disagree about Peter Dale Scott, who is too politically inclined, and takes the "big picture" approach.  "Deep Politics" amounts to ordinary politics.  IMHO, his work is an excuse to exploit the JFK assassination for his liberal political bias.

(14) I am ambivalent about John Newman, since in the 1990's he offered more data on the CIA than anybody else, so he is heroic in that sense; however, his work has been obviated after the actual publication of the Lopez Report (2003) and is really out-of-date today.  To keep citing him is to ignore the facts as they have been revealed in the Lopez Report.  That's my take on it.  John Newman was also biased politically, IMHO.

(15) Since LHO was never actually an employee of the CIA, it is sheer guesswork, sheer speculation, sheer fantasy, that invents scenarios of a CIA Oswald.

(16) I know Ron Lewis personally, and Ron Lewis didn't believe that LHO actually worked for the US Government.  Ron Lewis told me that LHO worked for Guy Banister, a right wing politician and expert blackmailer, and also that Guy Banister was blackmailing LHO because he found out that LHO took that potshot at General Walker, his personal friend. 

(17)  I am delighted, Andrej, that you recognize the major role of the Dallas Police in the framing and silencing Oswald.  I hope to convince you further that they were central in the JFK assassination itself.  

(18) I agree with you that the Dallas Police in 1963 were right-wing, segregationist, anti-communist, Birchers', KKKs and Minutemen.  This was demonstrated by the late William Turner (Power on the Right, 1971), a former FBI agent and former member of this FORUM.

(19) I do agree with you this far -- if Dallas acted alone, then this assumes that the CIA, FBI and SS were looking the other way -- and this was in itself a passive role in the JFK conspiracy.  That has already been charged of the SS by many writers.  I myself accuse James Hosty and James Bookhout of participation in the local Dallas plot.  

(20) The WC testimony is full of explanations for the breakdown in US Government communications between the Secret Service and the local FBI in Dallas.  The PRS is the admitted weak spot in the entire US Government protection of JFK.   They are not blameless, by any stretch.  So, aside from David Morales, a few elements in the US Government had a passive role.  Yet, to focus on the US Government (and so-called "Deep Politics") takes our attention away from the core of the JFK Plot, namely, the Dallas Police, led by the Radical Right wing there in Dallas. 

(21) In my view, Guy Banister was working closely with Joseph Milteer and General Walker.  Walker had been tracking LHO since the April shooting.  George De Mohrenschildt told Natalie Voshinin on Easter Sunday that he suspected LHO of the shooting.  She told the FBI that day, and James Hosty, IMHO, told General Walker that day.  So, Walker began tracking LHO on Easter Sunday, 1963.

(22) IMHO, General Walker called Guy Banister who called David Ferrie who knew LHO since childhood.  David Ferrie invited LHO back to New Orleans, and only a few days after the Walker shooting, LHO was back in New Orleans.

(23) What LHO didn't know was that Guy Banister and General Walker were working together to frame LHO as a Communist through the Fake FPCC at 544 Camp Street.  Most of the people at 544 Camp Street were ignorant of this plot. They were all preparing for new attacks on Fidel Castro.  (This is where David Atlee Phillips came in.)

(24) As Howard Hunt himself confessed, he was "only on the sidelines" in the JFK plot.

(25) David Morales was apparently active at multiple levels of the JFK plot -- but he was not the leader, and he was not reporting to any CIA leaders -- his new leaders were the Radical Right, because they at least had the courage to strike out against an alleged Communist Conspiracy.   This is my reading of it.

(26) The entire Mexico City farce was planned by Guy Banister. Guy Banister knew very well that the paltry resumé of LHO as an FPCC officer would be laughed out of the consulates and Embassies of Mexico City.  But it was the final stage of the Frame-up of LHO as a Communist.  David Morales was probably the impersonator (Simpich, 2014).  The impersonation was the main purpose of the Mexico City trip.  (Kudos to Bill Simpich for clarifying this.)

(27) Finally, Andrej, I'm delighted that you have cited Walt Brown's landmark CT book, Treachery in Dallas (1995). Combined with Jeff Caufield's work (2015), we can finally see that the real solution to the JFK conspiracy has been right in front of us for 50 years, but we never looked directly at it.

(28) Why not just wait for the JFK Information Act in October, 2017 and take a rest?  Because, I believe it will be too much of a shock for many Americans to read the truth, unless they are prepared for it.  To blame the Dallas Police for the murder of JFK has never been a popular CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Michael Clark]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

26) The entire Mexico City farce was planned by Guy Banister. Guy Banister knew very well that the paltry resumé of LHO as an FPCC officer would be laughed out of the consulates and Embassies of Mexico City

Do you think this could have been done without David Attlee Phillips being privy to the Mexico plan? I'll read up on that point but it seems unlikely from what I think I know. I think Howard Hunt would have to have known as well, but I will do some re-reading on that as well.

And Paul wrote:

"(28) Why not just wait for the JFK Information Act in October, 2017 and take a rest?  Because, I believe it will be too much of a shock for many Americans to read the truth, unless they are prepared for it."

The problem with waiting is that "The Great Conspracy-Theorist Purge" may come soon, and the records left sealed. It is a race to figure it out before that happens. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:43 AM, Paul Brancato said:

You demean yourself by referring to those that disagree with you CIA-did-it CT's, and calling their ideas fantasy, or their lack of 'proof' a failure on their part. You just keep repeating your insults and faulty logic for some bizarre reasons. 

Paul B,

This is just what I mean.  These comments are mere insults, and contribute no information. 

It should be clear: 50 solid years lacking "proof" from the CIA-did-it CTers is an abject failure.  Yet instead of admitting their weakness, they rise up in defiance and insults to anybody who points out their failure.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

59 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Do you think this could have been done without David Attlee Phillips being privy to the Mexico plan?  I'll read up on that point but it seems unlikely from what I think I know. I think Howard Hunt would have to have known as well, but I will do some re-reading on that as well. 

Michael,

It's a good question.

If (and only if) we take the non-published, fictional work by David Atlee Phillips, The AMLASH Legacy (1988), as somewhat autobiographical, then we can say that Phillips was definitely part of the Mexico City plot.

However -- taking Phillips' account at face value -- it is clear that Phillips himself, like most people at 544 Camp Street, was outside the loop.  Phillips was looking forward to the hope that LHO would actually get his visa into Cuba, and join a team in Havana to whack Fidel Castro.  That's what most of the Cubans and mercenaries in New Orleans were hoping.

Only a few people knew the real plot -- namely, that LHO was supposed to fail in Mexico City.  Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove LHO to Mexico City.  This is what Harry Dean says, and I believe his account.  IMHO, Loran Hall and Larry Howard were inside the loop. 

Loran Hall and Larry Howard had met General Walker in Southern California, just as Harry Dean had met him in mid-September 1963, and had heard about plans from Walker that LHO was to become the official Patsy.  They knew what was supposed to happen in Mexico City, but they didn't tell LHO.  They just drove on into the thick of it.  They knew LHO was set-up to fail (and that Morales would impersonate him afterwards) and then they would drive LHO back to Dallas.

The Lopez Report (2003) reveals the facts.  LHO took to Mexico City a pitiful resumé to "prove" he was an FPCC Officer.  It was well-known that Fidel Castro loved the FPCC, and gave them instant entrance into Havana anytime they wanted it.  Anyway, this was what Guy Banister told LHO, and LHO evidently believed it.  LHO really believed he was going to be handed this "instant visa" to Havana on a silver platter.  He was upset when this didn't happen.  

Guy Banister, Joseph Milteer and General Walker knew that LHO would be laughed out of the consulates and Embassies of Mexico City.  LHO and David Atlee Phillips did not know that.  They were taken by surprise.  That's my reading.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Andrej Stancak]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

I agree with most of what you said here -- with only some minor diversity:

(1) I agree that the problem of the degree of local plot, simple plot, complex plot or external plot still has much energy.

(2) I agree that no consensus yet exists within the CT community on these points.

(3) I agree that we should strive to minimize our anger at each other over this fact of life.

(4) I also hope that the new documents to be released by October 2017 will shed new light the case.

(5) I believe many CTers will be surprised to learn that the locus of the JFK plot was Dallas, and not Langley.

(6) While LHO was evidently involved with the ONI in the USSR, and was also involved with David Atlee Phillips in New Orleans, Mexico City and Dallas, nevertheless, it remains clear that LHO was never offered a full-time job with US Intelligence, but always remained at best a trainee (ONI) or a mercenary (CIA).  LHO was never a CIA Agent -- but LHO was a CIA-wannabe.

(7) If I am correct, then there was no role of US Intelligence in the JFK assassination plot.

(8) There were rogues in the CIA who were involved -- and who even confessed -- namely, Howard Hunt and David Morales.  They were not very highly placed.

(9) On the contrary, recent FOIA releases of CIA documents published by Bill Simpich (2014) reveal that the CIA was dumbfounded by the Impersonation of LHO in Mexico City, linking his name with Valeriy Kostikov   This impersonation was known by the CIA 15 minutes after the impersonation occurred.  A CIA Mole Hunt began immediately and was never solved.  This, IMHO, proves the CIA innocence in the framing of LHO in the JFK assassination. 

(10) Whoever impersonated LHO in Mexico City was inside the CIA, but working for a CIVILIAN plot, localized in Dallas, with a limb in New Orleans.  Dallas remains the locus of the JFK plot.  This is what I believe will be revealed in October, 2017.

(11) Joan Mellen named several people who were mercenaries for the CIA who confessed to a role in the JFK assassination -- but I will insist on the fact that they were mercenaries, and not CIA Agents.  I think Joan Mellen glosses over this crucial fact.  Frank Sturgis, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin, Thomas Beckham, David Ferrie, Carlos Bringiuer, Eladio Del Valle, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, William Seymour, and so many others -- they all confessed at some point to some role in the JFK saga, but they were all mercenaries, and would fight for any anti-Castro group -- they weren't CIA Agents.

(12)  I agree that Dick Russell did brilliant work.  Yet what I take away from the mysterious Richard Case Nagell is that LHO was never a CIA Agent.

 (13) I disagree about Peter Dale Scott, who is too politically inclined, and takes the "big picture" approach.  "Deep Politics" amounts to ordinary politics.  IMHO, his work is an excuse to exploit the JFK assassination for his liberal political bias.

(14) I am ambivalent about John Newman, since in the 1990's he offered more data on the CIA than anybody else, so he is heroic in that sense; however, his work has been obviated after the actual publication of the Lopez Report (2003) and is really out-of-date today.  To keep citing him is to ignore the facts as they have been revealed in the Lopez Report.  That's my take on it.  John Newman was also biased politically, IMHO.

(15) Since LHO was never actually an employee of the CIA, it is sheer guesswork, sheer speculation, sheer fantasy, that invents scenarios of a CIA Oswald.

(16) I know Ron Lewis personally, and Ron Lewis didn't believe that LHO actually worked for the US Government.  Ron Lewis told me that LHO worked for Guy Banister, a right wing politician and expert blackmailer, and also that Guy Banister was blackmailing LHO because he found out that LHO took that potshot at General Walker, his personal friend. 

(17)  I am delighted, Andrej, that you recognize the major role of the Dallas Police in the framing and silencing Oswald.  I hope to convince you further that they were central in the JFK assassination itself.  

(18) I agree with you that the Dallas Police in 1963 were right-wing, segregationist, anti-communist, Birchers', KKKs and Minutemen.  This was demonstrated by the late William Turner (Power on the Right, 1971), a former FBI agent and former member of this FORUM.

(19) I do agree with you this far -- if Dallas acted alone, then this assumes that the CIA, FBI and SS were looking the other way -- and this was in itself a passive role in the JFK conspiracy.  That has already been charged of the SS by many writers.  I myself accuse James Hosty and James Bookhout of participation in the local Dallas plot.  

(20) The WC testimony is full of explanations for the breakdown in US Government communications between the Secret Service and the local FBI in Dallas.  The PRS is the admitted weak spot in the entire US Government protection of JFK.   They are not blameless, by any stretch.  So, aside from David Morales, a few elements in the US Government had a passive role.  Yet, to focus on the US Government (and so-called "Deep Politics") takes our attention away from the core of the JFK Plot, namely, the Dallas Police, led by the Radical Right wing there in Dallas. 

(21) In my view, Guy Banister was working closely with Joseph Milteer and General Walker.  Walker had been tracking LHO since the April shooting.  George De Mohrenschildt told Natalie Voshinin on Easter Sunday that he suspected LHO of the shooting.  She told the FBI that day, and James Hosty, IMHO, told General Walker that day.  So, Walker began tracking LHO on Easter Sunday, 1963.

(22) IMHO, General Walker called Guy Banister who called David Ferrie who knew LHO since childhood.  David Ferrie invited LHO back to New Orleans, and only a few days after the Walker shooting, LHO was back in New Orleans.

(23) What LHO didn't know was that Guy Banister and General Walker were working together to frame LHO as a Communist through the Fake FPCC at 544 Camp Street.  Most of the people at 544 Camp Street were ignorant of this plot. They were all preparing for new attacks on Fidel Castro.  (This is where David Atlee Phillips came in.)

(24) As Howard Hunt himself confessed, he was "only on the sidelines" in the JFK plot.

(25) David Morales was apparently active at multiple levels of the JFK plot -- but he was not the leader, and he was not reporting to any CIA leaders -- his new leaders were the Radical Right, because they at least had the courage to strike out against an alleged Communist Conspiracy.   This is my reading of it.

(26) The entire Mexico City farce was planned by Guy Banister. Guy Banister knew very well that the paltry resumé of LHO as an FPCC officer would be laughed out of the consulates and Embassies of Mexico City.  But it was the final stage of the Frame-up of LHO as a Communist.  David Morales was probably the impersonator (Simpich, 2014).  The impersonation was the main purpose of the Mexico City trip.  (Kudos to Bill Simpich for clarifying this.)

(27) Finally, Andrej, I'm delighted that you have cited Walt Brown's landmark CT book, Treachery in Dallas (1995). Combined with Jeff Caufield's work (2015), we can finally see that the real solution to the JFK conspiracy has been right in front of us for 50 years, but we never looked directly at it.

(28) Why not just wait for the JFK Information Act in October, 2017 and take a rest?  Because, I believe it will be too much of a shock for many Americans to read the truth, unless they are prepared for it.  To blame the Dallas Police for the murder of JFK has never been a popular CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Thanks, Paul, for your detailed and well-elaborated comments.

There may be one problem with the new documents to be released in October 2017, and that is that there may not be actually any paper document clearly pointing to the local limb of the conspiracy because that part had never been captured in any official materials. Unlike the FBI which had a system for archiving reports from agents and detectives, the local limb composed of rogue police staff members worked by the word of mouth. There may be some slips in the FBI records on e.g., Hosty's role but hardly any full and revealing reports. I am afraid that we will need to read between lines again. Actually, there may be much more documents from the CIA archives explaining maybe the roles of Bishop and Angleton, or even the whole Russian affair. I hope that the new US government will not allow any documents to be withheld.

 

 

[Michael Clark]

Paul Trejo wrote:

"If (and only if) we take the non-published, fictional work by David Atlee Phillips, The AMLASH Legacy (1988), as somewhat autobiographical, then we can say that Phillips was definitely part of the Mexico City plot.

However -- taking Phillips' account at face value -- it is clear that Phillips himself, like most people at 544 Camp Street, was outside the loop. "

Paul, if you see a mistake or some ambiguity in the above, please clarify or correct it if you are so inclined. I have done a few re-reads of that and I am seeing two postulations that are in direct contradiction of one another. I'll do a few more re-reads but I am close to giving up.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Mark Knight]

Mr. Trejo,

You once again mischaracterize my position when you attempt to prop up your own.

Please show me where I have EVER blamed the CIA for the JFK assassination. You can't because I haven't.  But that's your fall-back position.  If someone doesn't believe that your theory has legs, then you accuse them of promoting the "failed" CIA-did-it theory.  

You might want to take a breath and consider that those are not the ONLY two options. If they were, this case would have been put to bed long ago, and this board would have no reason to exist.

Now... without placing YOUR conclusions in MY mind, once again explain how fiction becomes fact.  Have you been training certain politicians on how "alternative facts" work, perchance?

[Michael Clark]

23 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

All the CIA-did-it CTers have for argument's anymore are INSULTS.

It is a dying CT. Obviously.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

 

Painting a vase with a Mop again.

Paul, I don't see a lot of people offering the kind of ridicule that you do, with the frequency that you do.

I am not seeing how you benefit from it unless, like LHO handing out FPFC pamphlets, you just want to be known as the champion for a particular cause when all is said and done.

 

Cheers, Michael

 

[Michael Clark]

7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

.......  They knew what was supposed to happen in Mexico City, but they didn't tell LHO.  They just drove on into the thick of it.  They knew LHO was set-up to fail (and that Morales would impersonate him afterwards) and then they would drive LHO back to Dallas.

The Lopez Report (2003) reveals the facts.  LHO took to Mexico City a pitiful resumé to "prove" he was an FPCC Officer.  It was well-known that Fidel Castro loved the FPCC, and gave them instant entrance into Havana anytime they wanted it.  Anyway, this was what Guy Banister told LHO, and LHO evidently believed it.  LHO really believed he was going to be handed this "instant visa" to Havan

I have some doubts about that. That Cuba would let Anericans into Cuba, willy-nilly, seems doubtful to me. If he wanted to actually end up in Cuba legitimately, he would have made some kind of contact. And he would have had such contacts throughly the FPCC. If he wanted to transit through Cuba to Russia, he had those contacts as well. They would not have said, "sure comrade hop on the next plane, and we'll send you right on to Russia".

In Castro's HSCA statement, he said that Cuba was locked down tight to Americans. You say that Banister knew that to be true. Oswald would have known it as well.

He went there to be seen and identified and remembered, by everyone. He never intended to go to Russia. He never intended to be allowed to transit through; and he never intended to stay in Cuba after the first transit leg. IMO

Cheers, Mike

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I have some doubts about that. That Cuba would let Anericans into Cuba, willy-nilly, seems doubtful to me. If he wanted to actually end up in Cuba legitimately, he would have made some kind of contact. And he would have had such contacts throughly the FPCC. If he wanted to transit through Cuba to Russia, he had those contacts as well. They would not have said, "sure comrade hop on the next plane, and we'll send you right on to Russia".

In Castro's HSCA statement, he said that Cuba was locked down tight to Americans. You say that Banister knew that to be true. Oswald would have known it as well.

He went there to be seen and identified and remembered, by everyone. He never intended to go to Russia. He never intended to be allowed to transit through; and he never intended to stay in Cuba after the first transit leg. IMO

Cheers, Mike

Michael,

Harry Dean told me a lot about his personal experiences as a member of Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement when he was in Chicago, Illinois in 1959-1960.   Harry Dean, an ordinary laborer, had done so much fund-raising for Fidel Castro in 1959 that he was made an honorary member of the 26th of July Movement.  

However, things had changed between 1959 and 1960.  Cuban supporters of Fidel Castro in 1959 began to quit in 1960, as the dictator began to become more and more hostile regarding his American supporters.  Fidel demanded that all his "true" supporters join the FPCC, organized in New York.  Harry was automatically named the Secretary for the FPCC in Chicago.  This is matter of public record.

But Harry's Cuban friends had already quit Fidel Castro's movement as they feared Castro was becoming closer to the Communists.  They urged Harry to quit, but it was fascination -- Harry wanted to see what would happen, next, so he stayed on as Chicago's FPCC Secretary, raising funds and sending them in.  But Harry made a second step -- he began to volunteer information to the FBI about Fidel Castro.

Things took a strange turn when Harry Dean was invited to be an honorary guest in Havana, to meet Fidel Castro in early 1961.  Harry did travel to Cuba for that, and as an officer of the FPCC the consulate rolled out the red carpet for Harry Dean.  Once inside Havana, however, matters were very different.  Harry spent many hours waiting to speak with anyone.   Then Harry was hurried over to shake Fidel Castro's hand and to hear Castro's thanks for the fundraising.  That was it.

After that, Harry was hurried to another meeting, where he was treated with hostility, as his interrogators grilled him about possibly being an American spy.  Harry did his best to keep his cool, and he was glad to get out of Havana in one piece.  Harry also volunteered this information to the FBI, and Harry decided he was in over his head in politics -- it was not his game.  This was when Harry moved his family to Southern California and he joined the John Birch Society and the Minutemen, with Larry Howard, Loran Hall and Gabby Gabaldon in 1962.

My point is that members of the FPCC, especially officers, were treated like royalty at the Cuban consulates -- if not in Havana itself.  The FPCC was regarded as a money-source for Fidel Casto, and he wanted to keep it close and watch it closely.   This is what Harry Dean told me.

As for Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) -- this was an entirely different matter.  For one thing, Harry Dean had been known to Fidel Castro insiders since 1959, as a successful fund-raiser in the Illinois area.  Harry had reputation among the Cubans and early supporters of Fidel Castro.  He was somebody back in the day, even in Castro's early 26th of July Movement.  

LHO, on the other hand, was unknown to anybody in Fidel Castro's movement.  LHO claimed to be an officer of the FPCC in New Orleans, but everybody in the FPCC, starting with New York City, knew that the FPCC in New Orleans was a FAKE.  

The Lopez Report shows the phony resumé that LHO took with him to Mexico City to show the Cuban Consulate there -- and it was such an amateur production that he fooled nobody at all.  They practically laughed LHO out of there.  Besides, the Cuban Consulate had an official list of FPCC officers right there, and LHO was not on that list.  (It reminds of somebody trying to get past the bouncer of some posh night club, and his name isn't on the bouncer's list.  It's embarrassing.)

The Lopez Report tells us that the consuls at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City made fun of LHO and his silly resumé.   They spoke among themselves that here is some infiltrator, some provocateur, some weasel trying to sneak into Havana through Mexico City.   "Does he think we're all stupid?   Evidently he does."   They turned LHO away.  But LHO said he would go over their heads -- he had friends at the USSR Embassy, and they would tell the puny Cubans who's in charge.  So the Cuban consuls said, "Fine, do that."  

The Lopez Report tells us that LHO went to the USSR Embassy and whined about it, cried about it,and even produced a pistol and demanded to be permitted to get into Cuba, tears in eyes, whining that he feared for his life, it's a matter of life and death.  The USSR consuls took his pistol from him, removed the bullets and handed it back to him.  They calmly told him that the normal procedure takes several weeks, and that he would simply need to apply through the normal procedure like everybody else. 

LHO didn't give up.  He returned to the Cuban Consulate and told them that the USSR Embassy was entirely on his side, and had insisted that LHO be granted his instant visa to Havana.  Well, all it took was one little phone call from the Cuban Consulate to the USSR Embassy to verify this claim -- and of course the USSR consul only laughed about it.   LHO raised his voice, and was then escorted out of the Cuban Consulate.   End of story.

LHO had no legitimate status with the FPCC.   The FPCC in New York, through Vincent Lee, directly ordered LHO avoid setting up an FPCC chapter in New Orleans.  It was never a recognized chapter.  New York knew this.  Mexico City knew this,too.   There was nothing official-looking about LHO's FPCC resumé, which we can see in its entirety in The Lopez Report.   It's like some dark joke.

It seems to me, based on The AMLASH Legacy (1988), that David Atlee Phillips had high hopes that LHO could fake his way into Havana to join a Kill Team there.   It also seems to me, however, that Guy Banister and General Walker knew very well that LHO could never get into Havana based on this amateur FPCC resumé.  The main goal was a charade -- an opportunity to photograph LHO at this sensitive place in the Western Hemisphere, and for some confederate Mole to impersonate LHO to link his name with KGB assassin, Valeriy Kostikov.   That's what they did. 

In conclusion -- there was a time -- perhaps short-lived -- when FPCC officers were welcomed into Havana Cuba with open arms.  It didn't last, and perhaps Harry Dean was among the last of that old guard.   That's how I interpret the events.  The Lopez Report correctly expresses the mood of the Mexico City Consulates and Embassy's about LHO -- LHO was a joke.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 25, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

If anyone wants to see how an American associated with the FPCC would get into Cuba in 1963 and even do intelligence work there - and how it could very probably relate to Lee Oswald - take a look at the AM/SANTA joint FBI/CIA program which had just started that year.  That should be enough of a lead for those who want to really dig into it...