The Chicken Bone Lunch

[Duke Lane]

Removing anything "of color" from the discussion, neither Troy West nor Eddie Piper were by nature men who were aggressive,

Oh? Is there testimony, or other evidence to corroborate this, Duke?

As you well know, there isn't any, but as you question below ...

and shooting a gun at someone is definitely aggressive. I'm referring to a man who sat in one place all day long and wrapped packages because "that's where his work was." The other's job was as janitor, and what I described him doing is exactly what was described in official reports to be his job. If "scrubbing commodes" sounds less than glamorous, if that's what your job is, there's nothing "derogatory" or "demeaning" about someone saying that that's what you do, even if actually doing the job is.

So their job descriptions rule them out as potential suspects? Interesting way to proceed...

Really ... a guy who sits in one place wrapping stuff and a guy who cleans up after people ... really, where's the impetus here to shoot POTUS? I'm clearly missing something. The fact that something can't be disproved does not a fact make.

I have a different theory, which will come to light soon enough. Right now, I'm 40 or 50 pages into providing what I think constitutes proof, and haven't even gone back to make the citations yet. I got called on how I "felt" about Ed Hoffman, and spent considerable time - extemporaneously - putting together Freeway Man to defend my "gut feeling" ... which, as it turned out had much greater substance than that "feeling."

Greg, if you can put them on the sixth floor, then so be it. Until you do, there's nothing to it other than a 14-year-old boy's fleeting observation of an "elderly Negro." I submit that the only way he could have know if whomever he observed was "elderly" was not by his age - 150 feet or so away - but by the color of his hair. Are there photos of either man extant that show either with white or gray hair? And what about Rowland's of seeing a man standing there are "port arms?"

As to their participation in any conspiracy that day, I reject the possibility out of hand unless and until someone can come up with something a lot better than "I don't think their 'alibi' is good enough," as if they even needed one.

Testimony indicated an elderly Negro was at the "snipers nest" up to 5 minutes before the shooting. A description was even given. Shelley told the FBI only two men fit that description: Piper and West. That neither had an alibi which stands up to even the slightest scrutiny - and that they were the only two black men in the building without a good alibi, is worth considering. If you don't feel the same way, so be it.

We will leave aside the fact that Amos Euins only described such a person in that location taking aim and firing at JFK with a "pipe thing;" he did not indicate having seen anyone earlier. Said Amos:

Mr. Euins

. I was standing here on the comer. And then the President come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it was a pipe, some kind of pipe.

Mr. Specter

. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a pipe?

Mr. Euins

. Right as he turned the corner here.

And later:

Mr. Specter

. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. Euins

. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded.

Mr. Specter

. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir.

Mr. Specter

. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald--

Mr. Euins

. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head.

Mr. Specter

. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir.

Mr. Specter

. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir.

Mr. Specter

. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?

Mr. Euins

. I would say about right along in here.

Mr. Specter

. Indicating about 2 1/2 inches above where you hairline is. Is that about what you are saying?

Mr. Euins

. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. Specter

. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter

. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. Euins

: No, sir.

In his statement on November 22 to Dallas County sheriffs, he said "this man was a white man." In his testimony with Uncle Arlen, he said "I told the man [the sheriff] that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head." Asked "did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?" Amos responded, "They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head."

Actually, it's killing me that I can't even find a reference to an "elderly" anything in Walt Brown's Global Index! Where the heck is this reference, or is it merely "lore" anymore?!?

So why would these two "elderly" black men - or for that matter, any black man - want to kill that particular POTUS?

Realize, too, that NONE of the women had alibis either, and they had to wear girdles back then, and here JFK was ... well, nevermind: I've done all the offending I intend to do this week! The last thing I need is bras burning on my lawn!!

On the other hand, we have people like William Manchester quoting people like Roy Truly, who - Manchester says - said that "except for my n****s, the boys are conservaitve, like me — like most Texans," and doubted that "half his boys would have gone out to see the parade if it hadn't been lunchtime." He - like most Texans? - "disapproved of Kennedy's policies abroad and believed he was a 'race mixer' at home," and Truly personally "didn't believe the races were meant to mix."

... Thus explaining why a black man who never left his work area or one who swept up after people would go shoot the SOB? Because ...???

Once again, please accept my apologies for anything offensive; it wasn't intended to be.

FWIW, I agree, you just said it like it was back when (and maybe so still in some parts).

This is my last foray into this thread. I understand you have a hot date with a Dr Pepper you'd like to get to, and I don't want to hold you up any further.

Perhaps when I post the other thing, we should engage. Meanwhile, if anything, I'd think this topic should enhance your position if there's any merit to it. If Bonnie Ray's prints were on the Dr Pepper bottle (I doubt they could be pulled from the bones or the sack), then it was his lunch; if not ...?

As far as I've ever learned, the bones and bottle were pulled from the sixth floor and vanished into the ether without any sort of resolution. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, that's what I'm trying to find out.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Duke Lane

[Duke Lane]

I've been trying to look this up, but have had no luck. Weren't there 2 employees of the TSBD on the fifth floor, and didn't they report later that they could hear the shell casings hitting the floor from above on the 6th floor? (I wish I had a citation for this -- maybe Harvey and Lee.)

James Worrell near the corner of Elm saw a rifle at the 6th floor window before the motorcade arrived. I guess he couldn't tell anybody because he was afraid of getting shot? I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. How could he not know Kennedy was going to be killed? And according to Harvey and Lee, it was Lee Oswald, hoping onlookers would think it was Harvey.

The two employees - actually, three - were James "Junior" Jarman, Harold "Hank" Norman, and Bonnie Ray Williams. Bonnie Ray was initially on the 6th floor, where he said he'd eaten the chicken lunch with the Dr Pepper; Junior and Hank had gone out front and, upon hearing that the motorcade was on Main Street, went up to the 5th floor. Bonnie Ray said he thought he might've heard them walking around down there, so went down and joined them.

All of this and more is the subject of an upcoming two-part essay, "The Great Elevator Shuffle" and "The Three Blind Mice and the Invisible Man," each about 20-25 pages. It's pretty in-depth - almost annoyingly so! - and arrives at different conclusions than have been presented before. It is why I'm trying to find out about the disposition of the pop bottle.

Worrell's story is a different deal, but as far as worrying about being shot, that much never seemed to have entered his mind. He was transported to DPD the next morning by the Carrollton PD, and was later interviewed by the FBI. He had nothing to do with the assassination. I did a piece on him - the first of three parts - in Deep Politics Quarterly in, I think, the Spring 2007 issue.