Jack White Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 Is this the bench couple?EBC No...that is the Hesters. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eugene B. Connolly Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 [ EBC No...that is the Hesters. Jack Thanks,Jack. EBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I have no way of knowing if the photo was retouched or not. Logic tells me that it's Gordon Arnold when looking at the other photographic evidence, ie Mooman & Betzner. There is of course the remote possibbility that those were also faked, but once again logic persuades me that this is highly unlikely and that BDM is genuine and represents the figure of Gordon Arnold.Duncan Hi Duncan, forgive me but, the figure in Betzner looks nothing like the shapes & shadows that make up the "Arnold figure" in Moorman. If one believes in Arnold's story(& there are many who don't) then something must of happened to the Betzner3 prints that have been published to alter this figure's appearance. Arnold was not wearing a fedora. Regards, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Duncan, the fedora hat is seen in LIFE magazine's print of B3. I agree that the inferior copy-print that Groden copied & then published in TKOAP makes it looks strange & incomprehencable, but a high-res scan of what LIFE gave us shows the shape of his hat very clearly. Here's a hint to it's position, just in case you really can't see it. Blackhatman was at the wall, the closest Arnold ever got to the wall was when Turner placed him there when filming TMWKK. Arnold said he was 3' from the fence & never once mentioned a wall. The figures above the wall in Moorman5 are still matters of conjecture & rightly so, as is Arnold's reliability & it's perfectly reasonable to discount them. Blackhatman is fact(if you trust the photos) & still as mysterious as ever. Alan It's ok, I forgive you What Fedora? ..The strange head area shape could be caused by any number of factors including head wearing apparels or none at all.Duncan I have no way of knowing if the photo was retouched or not. Logic tells me that it's Gordon Arnold when looking at the other photographic evidence, ie Mooman & Betzner. There is of course the remote possibbility that those were also faked, but once again logic persuades me that this is highly unlikely and that BDM is genuine and represents the figure of Gordon Arnold.Duncan Hi Duncan, forgive me but, the figure in Betzner looks nothing like the shapes & shadows that make up the "Arnold figure" in Moorman. If one believes in Arnold's story(& there are many who don't) then something must of happened to the Betzner3 prints that have been published to alter this figure's appearance. Arnold was not wearing a fedora. Regards, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I disagree with you totally. You could just as easily place a 10 gallon Stetson, a Mexican hat or an English bowler over the head area and come to your conclusion. Other than guesswork, you can not say that the figure is wearing a hat as a fact. You can say you think he's wearing a hat, but no definite conclusions can be made from ANY versions of B3....and that's the only fact here period. I also can only say that I think it's Gordon Arnold, but I can not conclude that it's definately him as a fact....and that's a fact.Duncan I must agree with Duncan on this one. It is interesting to know that Gordon Arnold had told of his experience on the knoll from the very onset of the assassination once he returned home. It is also worth pointing out that Gordon almost didn't do the MWKK interview because he became insulted when Turner mentioned paying Gordon the sum of $100.00 as a standard fee given to anyone who was interviewed for the documentary. Gordon stood firm on principle and wanted no compensation for saying what he claimed to be the truth. One more thing ... the puptent type hat Gordon wore when seen at a slight angle to the camera will leave two vertical points visible. Those points seen in silhouette would resemble "dog ears". It is in part the two points visible in the Betzner photo that attributed to this individual being named "The Black Dog Man". If you look at the Betzner photo - the President, who the BDM would be looking at, is not exactly between the camera and the BDM. This is why I believe Gordon's cap was slightly turned allowing the two points of his hat to be seen at a slight angle. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 AlanI disagree with you totally. You could just as easily place a 10 gallon Stetson, a Mexican hat or an English bowler over the head area and come to your conclusion. Other than guesswork, you can not say that the figure is wearing a hat as a fact. You can say you think he's wearing a hat, but no definite conclusions can be made from ANY versions of B3....and that's the only fact here period. I also can only say that I think it's Gordon Arnold, but I can not conclude that it's definately him as a fact....and that's a fact. Duncan Duncan. I am saying he was wearing a fedora style hat as fact yes. I don't have to think or imagine, it is there, the shape of a fedora is cleary seen on top of the head of the human figure leaning on the wall in the best copy of B3 available & my gif clearly demonstrates it. If you still cannot see how closely it resembles a fedora you'll have to be more specific as to why. (I'll ignore those other hats you mentioned for now, you were joking right?) no definite conclusions can be made from ANY versions of B3 Please elabotrate. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) I don't need to be more specific Alan. Here's the equation. Duncan believes it's Gordon Arnold + Gordon Arnold was not wearing a Fedora = No BDM Fedora (I'll ignore those other hats you mentioned for now, you were joking right?) Please elabotrate. No I wasn't joking. I agree with Bill that it's Arnold's cap I can understand why Alan believes he sees a fedora type hat, but he has never listened to reason when it comes to why the image he uses only makes it appear that way. We went around and around about half-tones and such a couple of years ago. Alan's picture reminds me of an ice cream cone that has began to melt, thus altering its original shape. If one looks at the Hat Man image in the Moorman photo, they will note that the Hat Man's hat is slightly rounded on its points ... much the same way as a fedora looks. I believe the image of the BDM that I post below came from Robert Groden. I believe I saw one of Robert's videos where the narrator mentions the dog ears and how the BDM got his name. The image Robert had was sharper and not degraded from the half-tone process like the one Alan prefers to use. The points on the top of the BDM's head appear sharp and not rounded like that of a fedora. The front and back of a 'garrison hat' which resembles a puptent - does have a sharp appearence. Everyone can make up their own minds. I believe what Alan calls the rim of the hat is the same dark areas seen in around the BDM ... possibly foliage? I mean if you look at how low the alleged rim would have to be, then it's too low to be a fedora, unless compared to the one shown on Boris Battenoff which is an exaggeration given to a cartoon. I also recall Jack White mentioning that the Arnold figure looked to have a medallion reflecting on his cap. Just below the the area between the dog ears is something on the head that seems to show a slight reflection. BDM would have been turned more away from the sun in the Betzner photo than when he was captured in Moorman's photo, so a dimmer view of the medallion (if that is what it is) would be expected IMO. Bill Edited January 20, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) I can understand why Alan believes he sees a fedora type hat,The front and back of a 'garrison hat' ...... Bill Maybe the difference lies only in how we define the term "Fedora." To my eyes the hat on the fence has the brim turned up and slightly rounded, while BDM's hat has a straight brim. BDM's hat may have a slightly wider brim, or may just appear that way. Fence man's hat seems made of firmer material, while BDM's hat might be made of a felt-type, softer material. Does anyone agree that Fence man's hat resembles the hat worn by the "oldman" tramp arrested sometime later in the trainyard. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tramps.jpg Edited January 20, 2007 by J. Raymond Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Alan. As Jack still hasn't responded to our request for the blackdog image. This Blow Up of Willis5 showing the top of the wall may be usefull ? Click on the image to see it full size: Edited January 20, 2007 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 So you won't even admit to seeing the fedora shape because you believe it is Arnold? That's a pathetic response. I'll try one more time: no definite conclusions can be made from ANY versions of B3Please elaborate on what you meant by this above statement(I don't understand it) & tell us, if you will, what you know about the sources of Betzner3. Duncan. I am saying he was wearing a fedora style hat as fact yes. Ah well, that's it it then..if you say it's a fact it must a fact then I don't have to think or imagine, it is there, the shape of a fedora is cleary seen on top of the head of the human figure leaning on the wall in the best copy of B3 available & my gif clearly demonstrates it. Your gif clearly demonstrates that you know how to make a gif, and that's about all. You are entitled to state your opinion, but to claim that there is definitely a Fedora on the head, and that the Fedora it's a fact is nonsense. I too have made many claims, some of which I stand by and some which I now realise were insane, but to the best of my memory I don't ever remember claiming any of them were a fact, and if I ever did, then I was wrong. If you still cannot see how closely it resembles a fedora you'll have to be more specific as to why. I don't need to be more specific Alan. Here's the equation. Duncan believes it's Gordon Arnold + Gordon Arnold was not wearing a Fedora = No BDM Fedora (I'll ignore those other hats you mentioned for now, you were joking right?) Please elabotrate. No I wasn't joking. I agree with Bill that it's Arnold's cap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Alan.As Jack still hasn't responded to our request for the blackdog image. This Blow Up of Willis5 showing the top of the wall may be usefull ? Hi Robin, I'm sure Jack or Gary Mack would confirm this but in the best copys of Willis5(& indeed in the original that the 6th floor now has), the fence seen above the wall alongside Blackdogman is very close its original colour(white). Look at what you posted, the fence is next to black & this cleary demonstrates why I am looking for one of the better versions. Jack has kindly responded to my email & we are going to have to be patient I'm afraid. Thanks for trying though Robin but the differences between what you posted & the original photo are huge, you'll appreciate that once you see it. My best, Alan Just as an example, this is copied from the Willis5 seen in Nov '67 LIFE magazine, compare this crop to the same area in what you posted. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) FYI Fedoras come in many different styles & shapes, the closest style to Blackhatman's is the "Gansters Fedora"(make of that what you will). LIFE magazine had a superior print of Betzner3 & they published a huge copy of it. Because of the size of it, there was next to no loss of resolution when the half-tone was filtered out of that high-res scan. The print in LIFE came first, what Groden published was from a copy, of a copy of that same print. I've already posted them side by side in this thread & the differences in clarity are startlingly obvious on Blackhatman alone. Don't talk about "the original image", you have never seen an original B3, Groden's source came from a poor copy of the LIFE print, if you have to refer to original then I guess LIFE's copy must be it. I don't need to be more specific Alan. Here's the equation. Duncan believes it's Gordon Arnold + Gordon Arnold was not wearing a Fedora = No BDM Fedora (I'll ignore those other hats you mentioned for now, you were joking right?) Please elabotrate. No I wasn't joking. I agree with Bill that it's Arnold's cap I can understand why Alan believes he sees a fedora type hat, but he has never listened to reason when it comes to why the image he uses only makes it appear that way. We went around and around about half-tones and such a couple of years ago. Alan's picture reminds me of an ice cream cone that has began to melt, thus altering its original shape. If one looks at the Hat Man image in the Moorman photo, they will note that the Hat Man's hat is slightly rounded on its points ... much the same way as a fedora looks. I believe the image of the BDM that I post below came from Robert Groden. I believe I saw one of Robert's videos where the narrator mentions the dog ears and how the BDM got his name. The image Robert had was sharper and not degraded from the half-tone process like the one Alan prefers to use. The points on the top of the BDM's head appear sharp and not rounded like that of a fedora. The front and back of a 'garrison hat' which resembles a puptent - does have a sharp appearence. Everyone can make up their own minds. I believe what Alan calls the rim of the hat is the same dark areas seen in around the BDM ... possibly foliage? I mean if you look at how low the alleged rim would have to be, then it's too low to be a fedora, unless compared to the one shown on Boris Battenoff which is an exaggeration given to a cartoon. I also recall Jack White mentioning that the Arnold figure looked to have a medallion reflecting on his cap. Just below the the area between the dog ears is something on the head that seems to show a slight reflection. BDM would have been turned more away from the sun in the Betzner photo than when he was captured in Moorman's photo, so a dimmer view of the medallion (if that is what it is) would be expected IMO. Bill Edited January 20, 2007 by Alan Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Alan.As Jack still hasn't responded to our request for the blackdog image. This Blow Up of Willis5 showing the top of the wall may be usefull ? Hi Robin, I'm sure Jack or Gary Mack would confirm this but in the best copys of Willis5(& indeed in the original that the 6th floor now has), the fence seen above the wall alongside Blackdogman is very close its original colour(white). Look at what you posted, the fence is next to black & this cleary demonstrates why I am looking for one of the better versions. Jack has kindly responded to my email & we are going to have to be patient I'm afraid. Thanks for trying though Robin but the differences between what you posted & the original photo are huge, you'll appreciate that once you see it. My best, Alan Just as an example, this is copied from the Willis5 seen in Nov '67 LIFE magazine, compare this crop to the same area in what you posted. . No problem. As i have never seen the original photo i had nothing to compare my copy of Willis too. Your small crop certainly does look superior to anything i have. I will be patient and see if Jack will share his version with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 Alan.As Jack still hasn't responded to our request for the blackdog image. This Blow Up of Willis5 showing the top of the wall may be usefull ? Hi Robin, I'm sure Jack or Gary Mack would confirm this but in the best copys of Willis5(& indeed in the original that the 6th floor now has), the fence seen above the wall alongside Blackdogman is very close its original colour(white). Look at what you posted, the fence is next to black & this cleary demonstrates why I am looking for one of the better versions. Jack has kindly responded to my email & we are going to have to be patient I'm afraid. Thanks for trying though Robin but the differences between what you posted & the original photo are huge, you'll appreciate that once you see it. My best, Alan Just as an example, this is copied from the Willis5 seen in Nov '67 LIFE magazine, compare this crop to the same area in what you posted. . No problem. As i have never seen the original photo i had nothing to compare my copy of Willis too. Your small crop certainly does look superior to anything i have. I will be patient and see if Jack will share his version with us. As I responded to Alan, I have THOUSANDS of JFK slides in sleeves stored in cartons and anytime I want to find one I must look at each sleeve on a light box. It is like looking for a needle in a haystack, and takes an hour or more...so it must really be important for me to search the unfiled slides. Regarding BLACKDOGMAN...my opinion again, if anyone is interested: 1. BDM is NOT Gordon Arnold. 2. BDM is not a gunman. 3. BDM is seen ONLY in two photos...Willis and Betzner. 4. BDM is NOT seen in Moorman. 5. BDM is not seen in any movies. 6. BDM in Willis and Betzner IS VERY BLURRY AND INDISTINCT. After studying all the facts, my guess is that BDM was added to Willis and Betzner by RETOUCHING to HIDE A MAN IN UNIFORM OPERATING A CAMERA. Such an image of an UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER TAKING PHOTOS WAS VERY TROUBLESOME TO THE CONSPIRATORS. In short, BDM did not really exist, in my opinion...or there would be other evidence of him than only two blurry indistinct images. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Regarding BLACKDOGMAN...my opinion again, if anyone is interested:1. BDM is NOT Gordon Arnold. 2. BDM is not a gunman. 3. BDM is seen ONLY in two photos...Willis and Betzner. 4. BDM is NOT seen in Moorman. 5. BDM is not seen in any movies. 6. BDM in Willis and Betzner IS VERY BLURRY AND INDISTINCT. After studying all the facts, my guess is that BDM was added to Willis and Betzner by RETOUCHING to HIDE A MAN IN UNIFORM OPERATING A CAMERA. Such an image of an UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER TAKING PHOTOS WAS VERY TROUBLESOME TO THE CONSPIRATORS. In short, BDM did not really exist, in my opinion...or there would be other evidence of him than only two blurry indistinct images. Jack Rosemary Willis told the HSCA that a man in that position was "conspicuous" and appeared to "disappear the next instant." HSCA Vol 12 pg 7 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca...DealeyPlaza.pdf A human figure who appears in only in two photos and then instantly disappears is more consistent (albeit not conclusive) with a shooter, in my opinion. Do people watching the President drive by pop up, take a look, then pop down? Or people photographing the President? Please note that Ms. Willis said her Dad, Phillip Willis, was upset because cops were running away from the area where the shots originated -- consistent with shooters dressed as cops, imo. The claim that BDM was a "no see'em" is contradicted by the statements of cameraman James Altgens in his 11/1/65 phone conversation with David Lifton, as quoted by Lee Forman in the "Additional Claims About the Knoll Wall" thread, June 17, 2005: NOV.01..1965 : Telephone conversation between David Lifton and the"Associated Press photographer/news photo editor/wire photo operator, James WILLIAM ALTGENS," Ike"...... He was friendly on the phone and mentioned quite casually that just before the motorcade came by, a number of people suddenly appeared behind the wall on the knoll. He added that he thought it was an odd place to watch the parade from since the car would speed up right there as it entered the Stemmons Freeway. This was new, exciting information, but I was worried that Altgens might be confusing this recollection with his description of people on the overpass, which was mentioned in his Warren Commission testimony. But he assured me he was talking about the wall on the grassy knoll--to the right of the stairs when one faced the knoll. When I asked Altgens if there were any police among the "people" he saw, he replied, "I seem to remember that there were. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now