New: Speaking of DP Eyewitnesses

[Tim Gratz]

Thanks, Bill, you proved my point. This also demonstrates that you need to read more carefully before you draw sweeping generalizations.

You claimed it was the protocol to check every window on presidential parade routes. My photographs demonstrate that was NOT the case--even after JFK was killed. Did you know that even his brother rode around in open convertibles both when he was campaigning for senator and when he was campaigning for president? I'll post the pictures if you insist.

Look at what Howard said: "every floor and window in a tall building facing the parking lot where the President was to speak on Friday morning was thoroughly checked. [My emphasis.]

That is far different than checking every window on a parade route, isn't it? It may very well be that windows would be checked if JFK was going to speak in an outside venue and would be exposed for at least a somewhat extended period of time. Should someone have thought that an assassin could shoot at a president in a moving vehicle? Well, one would think so, but obviously they did not do so in all the cities I showed, and in Key West, so Dallas was no different. But incredibly even years after Dallas RMN rode through Cairo in a convertible and with windows open.

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Your source is wrong on Bond, Bill. Don't read Bond books by popular writers--read Kennedy bios by historians. More on that later.

[William Kelly]

Thanks, Bill, you proved my point. This also demonstrates that you need to read more carefully before you draw sweeping generalizations.

You claimed it was the protocol to check every window on presidential parade routes. My photographs demonstrate that was NOT the case--even after JFK was killed. Did you know that even his brother rode around in open convertibles both when he was campaigning for senator and when he was campaigning for president? I'll post the pictures if you insist.

Look at what Howard said: "every floor and window in a tall building facing the parking lot where the President was to speak on Friday morning was thoroughly checked. [My emphasis.]

That is far different than checking every window on a parade route, isn't it? It may very well be that windows would be checked if JFK was going to speak in an outside venue and would be exposed for at least a somewhat extended period of time. Should someone have thought that an assassin could shoot at a president in a moving vehicle? Well, one would think so, but obviously they did not do so in all the cities I showed, and in Key West, so Dallas was no different. But incredibly even years after Dallas RMN rode through Cairo in a convertible and with windows open.

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Okay, Tim, now I am saying that the SS checked windows in Fort Worth, didn't check them in Dallas, and that single fact allowed for JFK to be assassinated, and now it is standard procedure to check all open windows whenever and where ever the president is, whether in a motorcade or sitting on the couch with his girlfriend.

And for the third time, Tim insists that JFK and Ian Fleming never met and never talked, though all he had to do was Google JFK and Ian Fleming or even Wiki JFK and he would have learned the details, exactly as previously described and still denied by him

TIM WRITE: Your source is wrong on Bond, Bill. Don't read Bond books by popular writers--read Kennedy bios by historians. More on that later.

MORE ON THAT NOW, TIM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Fleming

In March 1960, Fleming met John F. Kennedy through Marion Oates Leiter who was a mutual friend and invited to dinner. Leiter had introduced Kennedy to Fleming's books during his recovery from an operation in 1955. After dinner Fleming related his ideas on discrediting Fidel Castro; these were reported to Central Intelligence Agency chief Allen Welsh Dulles, who gave the ideas serious consideration.^[3]

Chancellor, Henry James Bond the Man and His World (2005)

Marion Oates "Oatsie" Leiter Charles, who was with Fleming when she introduced him to Kennedy, invited JFK to dinner at her Georgetown home, which was recently sold:

Socialite sells in D.C.

Washington hostess Marion Oates “Oatsie” Charles has sold her Georgetown home of more than 50 years for $7 million.

Located on R Street, the 1850s Italianate brick house on 0.8-acre had been listed at $8.3 million. It was decorated with photos of the socialite with several U.S. presidents including John F. Kennedy, says Jamie Peva, of Washington Fine Properties, co-listing broker along with A. Michael Sullivan Jr., of the same firm. In an interview, the 88-year-old Charles, who has hosted Nancy Reagan among others, shrugged off her reputation as a party-giver: “My reputation as a hostess was due to the fact that I did it so seldom.”

Across the lawn from the three-story, five-bedroom house is a guest studio with a kitchen. Charles, whose grandfather was Alabama governor William C. Oates, is a trustee of the Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, a roughly $1.8 billion foundation. She now lives in Newport, R.I.

Kimberly Casey and Daryl Judy, both of Tutt, Taylor & Rankin Sotheby’s International Realty, represented the buyer, whose name couldn’t be learned.

"OATSIE" IS QUITE A CHARACTER, NOW LIVING FULL TIME AT NEWPORT AND A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF THE DORIS DUKE FOUNDATION, WHICH DISTRIBUTES THE FORTUNE OF THE LATE (AND POSSIBLY MURDERED) TOBACCO HIERESS TO VARIOUS CHARITIES, INCLUDING JAZZ AND HISTORIC PRESERVATION.

WHILE I HAVE YET TO FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT HER PREVIOUS HUSBAND, JOHN LEITER, EXCEPT THAT I THINK HE WAS A TEXAS OIL MAN, OATSIE IS A GRAND DAUGHTER OF CONFEDERATE GENERAL OATES, WHO LOST THE BATTLE OF LITTLE ROUND TOP AT GETTESBURG TO CHAMBERLAINE, AND LATER BECAME GOVERNOR OF ALABAMA.

OATSIE ALSO SERVED IN THE OSS DURING WORLD WAR II.

HERE'S AN ARTICLE ABOUT HER CURRENT NEWPORT LIFESTYLE AND PIX:

http://www.projo.com/specials/newportsummer/chapter2.htm

Marion Oates Charles, at a cocktail party at the home of Ruth Buchanan Wheeler, is an Alabaman by birth and was a long-time confidante of the late Doris Duke.

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, my book (and I will check who wrote it) states that Fleming dined with Dulles and (cannot remember) and it was at that dinner that Fleming made his suggestions directly to Dulles re how to deal with Castro. (My book says his real suggestion was to have some patsy linked to Castro assassinate the next President (whomever it might be, blame it on Castro and force an invasion, a plan the CIA employed after the BOP failed--hey I'm kidding!!)

The next morning, then Sen. JFK who was as we all know a James Bond fan found out that Fleming was in town and desperately wanted to meet him but Fleming had already left town.

The man who wrote that book is a much more respected journalist or historian than Henry Chancellor. There is no doubt that Chancellor's version of the story is more interesting, of course.

By the way, I am surpised you failed to mention the name of James Bond's friend in the CIA, Felix Leiter. Since William King Harvey was America's James Bond, can there be any doubt that Fleming modeled Leiter after Harvey? They just got the wrong people to play Leiter in the Bond flicks!

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Back to the more serious issue of windows & parades later.

[Paul Rigby]

And if the Altgens photo is genuine, and Chaney's position is alongside the limo, we now have a very good explanation - the best - for the otherwise inexplicable: why the WC failed to call him as a witness. In other words, he had to be omitted to protect the second version of the Z film.

Clarification:

Removing Chaney from the Z-film - and its supporting filmlets - is of considerable utility to anyone trying to sell the grassy knoll as a fall-back position: Chaney in his true position, moving beyond the presidential limo as it stopped, interposes himself between limo and knoll. Perhaps the knoll bullet bent round him, giving us a second "magic bullet"?

[Tim Gratz]

I cannot even remember how this thread started but we are no longer discussing the DP eyewitnesses.

Instead, we have three different topics under way, and all at the same time:

(1) Whether there was security stripping in Dallas.

(2) Whether the Z film was altered.

(3) Whether JFK ever met Ian Fleming.

We have now a marvelous but messy morass!

There must be some way to keep these threads on topic.

[Paul Rigby]

I cannot even remember how this thread started but we are no longer discussing the DP eyewitnesses.

Instead, we have three different topics under way, and all at the same time:

(1) Whether there was security stripping in Dallas.

(2) Whether the Z film was altered.

(3) Whether JFK ever met Ian Fleming.

We have now a marvelous but messy morass!

Genuine debate is. Enjoy it!

[David G. Healy]

And how might that be, Michael?

You're a self-professed bright guy. Figure it out yourself.

LMAO!

[Bill Miller]

If you guys can't impeach the authenticity of the films/photos I cited, you're

throwing the baby out with the bath water, imo.

Too many times these boobs take someone's recollection in what must of been a blur and try to build a mountain out of a mole hill. One witness will say JFK was standing up when first shot - another says seated - another has JFK bringing his hands across his chest - another to his throat. So what is one to do ... say the films are altered so to support the discrepancies coming from these various witnesses - I don't think so.

Newman's Sheriff affidavit"

"The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up."

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).

Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.

Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.

I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."

Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.

I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

[Peter McGuire]

"An advertising salesman for the Dallas Morning News, Jim Willmon, was standing with the crowd along Houston Street. He recalled:

The car turned down Elm Street. A car backfired, or so I thought. I said to my buddy. " The Secret Service is going to have a heart attack!"

But it wasn't a backfire. It was shots. People ran toward the Grassy Knoll. No one seemed to look up at the Book Depository."

"The Plot that Killed Kennedy"

JIM MARRS