Eddie Piper

[Greg Parker]

edit

Edited November 17, 2012 by Greg Parker

[Lee Forman]

Greg - fantastic piece, begs many excellent questions - not sure which thread it was that you received the roasting on?

Did you manage to get a picture of Piper? Is this him standing at the far right, in this Murray crop of the doorway of the TSBD?

- lee

[Greg Parker]

Greg - fantastic piece, begs many excellent questions - not sure which thread it was that you received the roasting on?

Thanks Lee. The thread was "The Chicken Bone Lunch" which is currently on page 3.

Did you manage to get a picture of Piper? Is this him standing at the far right, in this Murray crop of the doorway of the

TSBD?

No pic, and have no idea if the person in the Murray crop is him or not. I do note that Rowland said he was "not real dark compared to some Negroes" and that the FBI did not note his complexion as they did with West (given as "dark").

I also wonder if the "light spot" of the head of the person seen by Euins may have been reflection from glasses - which Piper apparently wore.

I received some leads on his background after posting the piece. Digging into those, I found a possible connection to a group called the Colored Knights of Pythias.

The lack of questions on his activities between 11:30am when he said he returned to the first floor from collecting mail and his brief discussion with Oswald at around noon also makes me wonder...

I am cognizant of the fact that Piper is probably no longer with us, but even if he is, would be too old to properly defend himself. That said, I do believe some things are worth considering:

Did Rowland just get lucky in his description by virtue of describing one of only two Black males who remained inside the building whose explanations for their whereabouts during the assassination are, to say the least, shaky?

Then add on that both of those men were two of only three in total who could access the materials needed to make a long bag - and do so in the case of Piper without fear of being seen.

He was also one of only two men on that particular day, to leave clothing in the basement - the other being Buell Frazier.

As I said in the article, if Piper was indeed the man seen by Rowland, it's impossible to say what level of complicity to lay on him. Twist my arm, and I'd probably go with him being given a convincing cover story to do certain things in the day or two leading up to the motorcade, culminating in being asked to escort a "Secret Service" man to the 6th floor...where he may have been asked to hang around for a little while, maybe given the privilege of holding the "agents" rifle... maybe asked does he want to take a look out the window... hey presto! Instant "Negro" patsy, if needed...

- lee

[Greg Parker]

duplicate deteted

Edited December 5, 2007 by Greg Parker

[James Richards]

I received some leads on his background after posting the piece. Digging into those, I found a possible connection to a group called the Colored Knights of Pythias. (Greg Parker)

Greg,

The Pythian Temple was located on Elm Street. I do not have the specific address though.

The Grand Chancellor for the CKP was W.S. Willis. His son was a brilliant student who I believe became a doctor. He was the one with solid connections into the Dallas community including mixing with the likes of R.G. Storey and D.H. Byrd.

FWIW.

James

[Pat Speer]

I'd bet money Rowland saw Williams and Norman on the fifth floor, and incorrectly remembered it being the sixth. Note that he makes no mention of seeing Williams and Norman on the fifth, in the windows just below the window he'd supposedly been focusing upon. His wife recalled seeing some black men but thought they were on the fourth, if I recall. That still leaves open the question of who Rowland saw in the west window. Did Oswald (or his impostor) think about using the west window before settling on the sniper's nest?

IMO, Eddie Piper is not only not a suspect, but one of the most reliable witnesses suggesting Oswald's innocence. From day one he swore he spoke to Oswald on the first floor around 12:00--which was AFTER Givens supposedly saw Oswald upstairs. One of the biggest and most blatant holes in both the WC's and Bugliosi's argument is that they both prop up the drug-using, story-changing, and basically unreliable Givens, and dismiss Piper's (and Shelley's) statements. If Oswald had been allowed a defense he would have grown fat on this.

[William Kelly]

Pat, I agree that Rowland misidentified the exact floor of the TSBD he was seeing. I'm sure it would be natural for someone to be one or even two floors off on a seven story building, especially when caught by surprise and not expecting to have to remember such trivial details.

BK

I'd bet money Rowland saw Williams and Norman on the fifth floor, and incorrectly remembered it being the sixth. Note that he makes no mention of seeing Williams and Norman on the fifth, in the windows just below the window he'd supposedly been focusing upon. His wife recalled seeing some black men but thought they were on the fourth, if I recall. That still leaves open the question of who Rowland saw in the west window. Did Oswald (or his impostor) think about using the west window before settling on the sniper's nest?

IMO, Eddie Piper is not only not a suspect, but one of the most reliable witnesses suggesting Oswald's innocence. From day one he swore he spoke to Oswald on the first floor around 12:00--which was AFTER Givens supposedly saw Oswald upstairs. One of the biggest and most blatant holes in both the WC's and Bugliosi's argument is that they both prop up the drug-using, story-changing, and basically unreliable Givens, and dismiss Piper's (and Shelley's) statements. If Oswald had been allowed a defense he would have grown fat on this.

[Greg Parker]

I received some leads on his background after posting the piece. Digging into those, I found a possible connection to a group called the Colored Knights of Pythias. (Greg Parker)

Greg,

The Pythian Temple was located on Elm Street. I do not have the specific address though.

The Grand Chancellor for the CKP was W.S. Willis. His son was a brilliant student who I believe became a doctor. He was the one with solid connections into the Dallas community including mixing with the likes of R.G. Storey and D.H. Byrd.

FWIW.

James

Thanks James. The connection is hardly solid, and without access to the records of the CKP (if they still exist) it's extremely difficult to nail down. Perhaps a living relative could shed some light - but even if confirmed, it still doesn't mean anything in and of itself. I threw it into the equation only because I don't like leaving anything out that may turn out to be significant.

I'll see what I can find out about WS Willis. The organization, whether Piper was connected to it or not, is worth checking out in its own right... ties to civil rights... Catholic church... mutual benefit type charity... real estate deals... clashes with KKK

[Greg Parker]

Bill, Pat... thanks for input. I harbored no illusions it would be an easy sell.

I will submit that while my arguments may be wrong, they are far more likely to be true than Rowland mistaking the 20 year old Williams as being "elderly".

With regard to which floor he was looking at... he was specific in saying it was one below the larger windows, and that it was the same floor as the white man with the rifle occupied.

Pat, I agree that Rowland misidentified the exact floor of the TSBD he was seeing. I'm sure it would be natural for someone to be one or even two floors off on a seven story building, especially when caught by surprise and not expecting to have to remember such trivial details.

Having to recall it only later wasn't necessary. His wife testified that he specified the 6th floor when he invited her to look at the man with the rifle.

BK

[Pat Speer' post=129840' date='Dec 6 2007, 01:12 AM]I'd bet money Rowland saw Williams and Norman on the fifth floor, and incorrectly remembered it being the sixth. Note that he makes no mention of seeing Williams and Norman on the fifth, in the windows just below the window he'd supposedly been focusing upon.

Was he supposed to mention them by name? The fact is that Rowland marked on Exhibit 356 all the locations he saw people looking out. The window directly bellow the sniper's nest window is circled (as is the sniper's nest window itself, naturally)

His wife recalled seeing some black men but thought they were on the fourth, if I recall. That still leaves open the question of who Rowland saw in the west window. Did Oswald (or his impostor) think about using the west window before settling on the sniper's nest?

She thought it was the 4th, but wasn't sure. She probably meant the fifth. Clearly from the testimonies, it was she who was not focussed on what was happening - equally clear is that her husband was.

IMO, Eddie Piper is not only not a suspect, but one of the most reliable witnesses suggesting Oswald's innocence. From day one he swore he spoke to Oswald on the first floor around 12:00--which was AFTER Givens supposedly saw Oswald upstairs. One of the biggest and most blatant holes in both the WC's and Bugliosi's argument is that they both prop up the drug-using, story-changing, and basically unreliable Givens, and dismiss Piper's (and Shelley's) statements. If Oswald had been allowed a defense he would have grown fat on this.

Piper claimed to move to where the coffee was made straight after the sound of the second shot. He should have reached that location well and truly by the time Shelley came back in - yet according to Shelley, Piper was still making his way back there. It's not as if it was a huge distance, or that he shouldn't be in any hurry - in fact, the opposite -- he was eager to see what time it was.

And West testified he was MAKING coffee at that time - yet neither man saw each other.

As for Piper's consistency, I'll agree - but with one exception. Up until his WC testimony, he was claiming when he looked at the clock straight after the shooting, it was 12:25. He amended that before the commission to 12:27 or 12:30. If you've read my article, you know the problem I have with that is simply that it has the hallmarks of trying to establish an alibi for the time of the shots, but he tripped himself up by not being aware that the motorcade was 5 minutes late.

[Greg Parker]

Greg - fantastic piece, begs many excellent questions - not sure which thread it was that you received the roasting on?

Did you manage to get a picture of Piper? Is this him standing at the far right, in this Murray crop of the doorway of the TSBD?

- lee

I still have not located a pic of Piper.

Can anyone verify Lee's crop shows Piper, or know of any other potential identifications of him in photos?

I'm also now looking for any information on any prior arrests he may have had - the importance of this is potentially enormous.

thanks

[Steve Thomas]

Greg,

I still have not located a pic of Piper.

Not that it helps you out any, but at one time, the FBI had three pictures of him.

See this page:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=20

Steve Thomas

[Duke Lane]

I'd bet money Rowland saw Williams and Norman on the fifth floor, and incorrectly remembered it being the sixth. Note that he makes no mention of seeing Williams and Norman on the fifth, in the windows just below the window he'd supposedly been focusing upon. His wife recalled seeing some black men but thought they were on the fourth, if I recall. ...

IMO, Eddie Piper is not only not a suspect, but one of the most reliable witnesses suggesting Oswald's innocence. From day one he swore he spoke to Oswald on the first floor around 12:00--which was AFTER Givens supposedly saw Oswald upstairs.

If one reads closely the testimonies of Williams, Norman and Jarman, one finds that it's not only impossible for anyone to have seen these guys on the fifth floor very long before the shooting, but also highly improbable for whoever was on the sixth floor to have been Lee Oswald. The latter is due to the apparent fact that Bonnie Ray Williams was upstairs much later than he ever testified, and his failure to have identified Oswald as having been there fairly well exonerates him. After all, what was Oswald going to do to him for ratting him out?

... I will submit that while my arguments may be wrong, they are far more likely to be true than Rowland mistaking the 20 year old Williams as being "elderly".

Is that necessarily so? Consider that, when Williams got down to the fifth floor, Junior Jarman had noticed that he'd had a white dusty or powdery substance in his hair. There is no actual representation of how much of that substance was in his hair. Was it a small spot, say 2 by 2 inches, and only lightly dusted, or did it heavily cover his head? If the latter, could someone have mistaken Williams for being "elderly?"

Jarman only said that he'd noticed the substance in Williams' hair after the shooting, but he does not state that it was not there prior. Now, if we're to believe that a couple of tiny shells kicked loose enough dust to fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor (the floor of the sixth) some (ten?) feet above Williams' head while he kneeled with his head out the window in sufficient quantity after falling that distance - and presumably dissipating at least somewhat - then and only then can that substance have come from the fifth story ceiling cum sixth story floor.

The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.

Word could not have filtered all the way down Main Street and into Dealey Plaza for the two to have gleaned that information from "the buzz of the crowd," although it is possible that someone nearby to the TSBD heard it over a police radio and word then filtered through the crowd there, or that there was a police radio near enough to the front of the TSBD for the two to hear, but in either case, that information could only have come from a radio broadcast.

Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at about the same time as Danny Arce went to meet his friend at the parking lot at Record Street, a short block away, and then walk to Main Street to watch the parade go by. That walk only takes about 1½ minutes. This is evidenced by Roy Truly's testimony that he'd thought he'd seen Hank and Junior crossing Houston with Danny. Either time would have been sufficient for all three of them to get to their respective locations.

Anyway, they went around the back of the TSBD and rode the freight elevator upstairs to the 6th floor. Jarman estimated that this was at 12:26 or 12:28 if memory serves. Jarman also testified that Williams met them after they had arrived, although Norman said that he wasn't certain whether Williams was already there when they'd arrived, or if he'd come afterward (but he certainly did join up with them at some point!).

We also know from Roy Truly's testimony that, when he and Officer Baker had gotten to the elevator shaft, both elevators were at the fifth floor. This jibes with the fact that Hank and Junior said that they'd taken the freight elevator to the fifth floor, and that Williams testified that he had ridden the passenger elevator first to the sixth floor, and then back down to the fifth floor when he decided to go downstairs.

There is, as you might guess, much more to this story, which I'll get around to telling. Immediately, however, it goes to show that it is possible if not likely that the "elderly Negro" on the sixth floor was Bonnie Ray Williams with some "white stuff" in his hair, both because at some point later he did have the "white stuff" there, and because he was on the sixth floor almost right until the shooting.

If that's true - if Williams was upstairs, near a window, with others not matching or even coming close to his description being seen in that and other windows - then Williams saw and very possibly was being "held hostage" by the shooter(s). The fact that he didn't say he'd seen Oswald up there is strong evidence that Oswald wasn't up there, for what did he have to lose - what could he possibly be afraid that a dead man was going to do to him or his family - by saying he'd seen him?

Rowland, incidentally, estimated the time he'd seen the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" was at about 12:15, just before he noticed the other man with a rifle in the west window, which he estimated by hearing a police radio nearby (!see above about the motorcade on Main!) announcing that the parade was on or around Turtle Creek or somewhere in that vicinity.

Even Bonnie Ray admitted to being upstairs at that time, "perhaps" even as late as 12:20 or so, which certainly encompasses 12:15.

[Greg Parker]

QUOTE(Greg Parker @ Dec 5 2007, 10:19 PM) *

... I will submit that while my arguments may be wrong, they are far more likely to be true than Rowland mistaking the 20 year old Williams as being "elderly".

Is that necessarily so? Consider that, when Williams got down to the fifth floor, Junior Jarman had noticed that he'd had a white dusty or powdery substance in his hair. There is no actual representation of how much of that substance was in his hair. Was it a small spot, say 2 by 2 inches, and only lightly dusted, or did it heavily cover his head? If the latter, could someone have mistaken Williams for being "elderly?"

Duke, I can't consider Williams going down to the 5th since I believe he actually went up to the 5th.

As for the latter contention about the amount of dust in his hair, I don't believe there was any ever there. He was photographed later with dust covering the front of his shirt. This is likely the result of shifting dusty boxes or plywood that's been lying in the dust, with the boxes or plywood rested against his chest. The testimony of Williams, Jarman and Norman are so aligned on this one issue, it sounds they sound like they were scripted - completely unlike the rest of their testimonies. But for the sake of argument, if there was such matter in his hair, the amount you're talking about would have been a standout characteristic that Rowland was unlikely to forget. Does he say he was a white-haired elderly Negro? No. Any "white spot" seen on this person's head could have been the reflection of reading glasses pushed to the top of the head when not needed. Piper wore such glasses and was indeed, elderly (at least by the standards of a 20 year old).

Jarman only said that he'd noticed the substance in Williams' hair after the shooting, but he does not state that it was not there prior. Now, if we're to believe that a couple of tiny shells kicked loose enough dust to fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor (the floor of the sixth) some (ten?) feet above Williams' head while he kneeled with his head out the window in sufficient quantity after falling that distance - and presumably dissipating at least somewhat - then and only then can that substance have come from the fifth story ceiling cum sixth story floor.

The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.

The fact of the matter is - there was never any mention of Williams being on the 6th floor - until his WC testimony. Prior to that, he had indicated he went to the 5th from the 1st floor.

Word could not have filtered all the way down Main Street and into Dealey Plaza for the two to have gleaned that information from "the buzz of the crowd," although it is possible that someone nearby to the TSBD heard it over a police radio and word then filtered through the crowd there, or that there was a police radio near enough to the front of the TSBD for the two to hear, but in either case, that information could only have come from a radio broadcast.

Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at about the same time as Danny Arce went to meet his friend at the parking lot at Record Street, a short block away, and then walk to Main Street to watch the parade go by. That walk only takes about 1½ minutes. This is evidenced by Roy Truly's testimony that he'd thought he'd seen Hank and Junior crossing Houston with Danny. Either time would have been sufficient for all three of them to get to their respective locations.

Don't you mean Givens instead of Arce?

Anyway, they went around the back of the TSBD and rode the freight elevator upstairs to the 6th floor. Jarman estimated that this was at 12:26 or 12:28 if memory serves. Jarman also testified that Williams met them after they had arrived, although Norman said that he wasn't certain whether Williams was already there when they'd arrived, or if he'd come afterward (but he certainly did join up with them at some point!).

Close enough. He said 12:25 or 12:28.

We also know from Roy Truly's testimony that, when he and Officer Baker had gotten to the elevator shaft, both elevators were at the fifth floor. This jibes with the fact that Hank and Junior said that they'd taken the freight elevator to the fifth floor, and that Williams testified that he had ridden the passenger elevator first to the sixth floor, and then back down to the fifth floor when he decided to go downstairs.

What was Odum's motive for changing Williams' statement of Nov 23 to read that he took the west stairs down to the 5th?

There is, as you might guess, much more to this story, which I'll get around to telling. Immediately, however, it goes to show that it is possible if not likely that the "elderly Negro" on the sixth floor was Bonnie Ray Williams with some "white stuff" in his hair, both because at some point later he did have the "white stuff" there, and because he was on the sixth floor almost right until the shooting.

I don't have to guess - I know there is more - at least concerning Piper

If that's true - if Williams was upstairs, near a window, with others not matching or even coming close to his description being seen in that and other windows - then Williams saw and very possibly was being "held hostage" by the shooter(s). The fact that he didn't say he'd seen Oswald up there is strong evidence that Oswald wasn't up there, for what did he have to lose - what could he possibly be afraid that a dead man was going to do to him or his family - by saying he'd seen him?

Rowland, incidentally, estimated the time he'd seen the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" was at about 12:15, just before he noticed the other man with a rifle in the west window, which he estimated by hearing a police radio nearby (!see above about the motorcade on Main!) announcing that the parade was on or around Turtle Creek or somewhere in that vicinity.

Even Bonnie Ray admitted to being upstairs at that time, "perhaps" even as late as 12:20 or so, which certainly encompasses 12:15.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Greg Parker

[Duke Lane]

... I will submit that while my arguments may be wrong, they are far more likely to be true than Rowland mistaking the 20 year old Williams as being "elderly".

Is that necessarily so? Consider that, when Williams got down to the fifth floor, Junior Jarman had noticed that he'd had a white dusty or powdery substance in his hair. There is no actual representation of how much of that substance was in his hair. Was it a small spot, say 2 by 2 inches, and only lightly dusted, or did it heavily cover his head? If the latter, could someone have mistaken Williams for being "elderly?"

Duke, I can't consider Williams going down to the 5th since I believe he actually went up to the 5th.

As for the latter contention about the amount of dust in his hair, I don't believe there was any ever there. He was photographed later with dust covering the front of his shirt. This is likely the result of shifting dusty boxes or plywood that's been lying in the dust, with the boxes or plywood rested against his chest. The testimony of Williams, Jarman and Norman are so aligned on this one issue, it sounds they sound like they were scripted - completely unlike the rest of their testimonies. But for the sake of argument, if there was such matter in his hair, the amount you're talking about would have been a standout characteristic that Rowland was unlikely to forget. Does he say he was a white-haired elderly Negro? No. Any "white spot" seen on this person's head could have been the reflection of reading glasses pushed to the top of the head when not needed. Piper wore such glasses and was indeed, elderly (at least by the standards of a 20 year old).

I think you're making quite a stretch when you try to make reading glasses be a "white spot" simply because your man wore them. You want him to be there, and your only "proof" is that nobody else mentioned him being downstairs. There are a lot of people nobody mentioned seeing anywhere. So what?

One thing you've apparently forgotten is that "the boys" were laying plywood flooring that morning. How many times does 8 go into 100? One hundred is the length (and width) of the floors in TSBD; "8" is the length of a sheet of plywood. The result is not even, ergo when they got to either end of the building, the entire board could not fit, hence they had to cut it. When one cuts wood, what does one get? If one cuts wood with an electic saw, what does it do?

I'll hypothesize that the "dust" could've been sawdust.

I should also point out that while more than one person described someone of a darker complexion - e.g., "Mexican, or perhaps a Negro" - only one to the best of my recollection described the so-called "white spot," Amos Euins, and Amos did not say he was a Negro. He said:

I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot.

Pressed further for a description of the man, here's the exchange:

Mr. Specter

. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there?

Mr. Euins

. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.

Mr. Specter

. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. Euins

. Yes, sir: and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. Specter

. How would you describe that man for us?

Mr. Euins

. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand.

Mr. Specter

. Was he slender or was he fat?

Mr. Euins

. I didn't get to see him.

Mr. Specter

. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall or short?

Mr. Euins

. No.

Mr. Specter

. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. Euins

. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded.

Mr. Specter

.

Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man?

Mr. Euins

.

No, sir.

Mr. Specter

. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald--

Mr. Euins

. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head.

Mr. Specter

. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir.

Mr. Specter

. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir.

Mr. Specter

. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?

Mr. Euins

. I would say about right along in here.

Mr. Specter

. Indicating about 2 1/2 inches above where you hairline is. Is that about what you are saying?

Mr. Euins

. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. Specter

. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter

. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. Euins

: No, sir.

As I'll reiterate later, there is a certain caution one should employ when dealing with people's earlier statements versus their testimonies. The caution is that, on the afternoon of November 22, police and sheriff's deputies were taking statements from people, writing down what they said, then sending them off to wait until their statements had been typed up by someone else; they were not witnesses' own handwritten statements. If there was something wrong in the transcription, there wasn't much anyone could do about it except wait to talk to the officer again, amend the statement, have it re-typed ... or just be done with it and sign it.

Euins was a prime example of this:

Mr. Specter

. All right. Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos. In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white man or not?

Mr. Euins

. No, sir;

I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head

.

Mr. Specter

. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head?

Mr. Euins

. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter

. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?

Mr. Euins

. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head.

If one wishes to lend more weight to earlier statements than later ones, then your whole "elderly Negro" thing goes right out the window because, according to his earlier statement, Amos Euins said the man was white!

... and moreover, Euins said the man with the "white spot" was the shooter. Even by your own measure, Eddie Piper is in the clear.

[continued next post]

Edited April 28, 2008 by Duke Lane

[Duke Lane]

The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.

The fact of the matter is - there was never any mention of Williams being on the 6th floor - until his WC testimony. Prior to that, he had indicated he went to the 5th from the 1st floor.

What I said before about earlier statements having more weight than later ones ...?

Anyway, they went around the back of the TSBD and rode the freight elevator upstairs to the 6th floor. Jarman estimated that this was at 12:26 or 12:28 if memory serves. Jarman also testified that Williams met them after they had arrived, although Norman said that he wasn't certain whether Williams was already there when they'd arrived, or if he'd come afterward (but he certainly did join up with them at some point!).

Close enough. He said 12:25 or 12:28.

... And he said that Bonnie Ray joined them after that.

We also know from Roy Truly's testimony that, when he and Officer Baker had gotten to the elevator shaft, both elevators were at the fifth floor. This jibes with the fact that Hank and Junior said that they'd taken the freight elevator to the fifth floor, and that Williams testified that he had ridden the passenger elevator first to the sixth floor, and then back down to the fifth floor when he decided to go downstairs.

What was Odum's motive for changing Williams' statement of Nov 23 to read that he took the west stairs down to the 5th?

I'm clueless as to people's motives, but ... what I'd said previously with respect to Euins' statements ...?

There is, as you might guess, much more to this story, which I'll get around to telling. Immediately, however, it goes to show that it is possible if not likely that the "elderly Negro" on the sixth floor was Bonnie Ray Williams with some "white stuff" in his hair, both because at some point later he did have the "white stuff" there, and because he was on the sixth floor almost right until the shooting.

I don't have to guess - I know there is more - at least concerning Piper

Doesn't seem like it.

... [Arnold] Rowland, incidentally, estimated the time he'd seen the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" was at about 12:15, just before he noticed the other man with a rifle in the west window, which he estimated by hearing a police radio nearby (!see above about the motorcade on Main!) announcing that the parade was on or around Turtle Creek or somewhere in that vicinity.

Even Bonnie Ray admitted to being upstairs at that time, "perhaps" even as late as 12:20 or so, which certainly encompasses 12:15.

I'm compelled to note that Rowland added that, as to the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" that he "didn't pay very much attention to him." His identification of the man as a Negro was tenuous at best, his description as "elderly" no better.

Bonnie Ray said that he was upstairs on six; Eddie Piper made no such claim, nor did anyone make one about him being there. Why then hypothesize that a man whose only "suspicion" is fitting a tenuous description, who said that he'd only been on the first floor and "never" had any cause to go upstairs (it was storage, probably didn't need much sweeping, eh?) was somehow sinisterly involved, while at the same time discounting what one black man says and what he and another man both said he had some "dust" in his hair, all because "his" story wasn't "consistent," and others' testimony likely puts him other than on the fifth floor within just a couple of minutes of the shooting?

What, anyway, would Bonnie Ray's purpose be in lying about going up to the sixth floor if he didn't? To explain the "chicken bone sandwich?" Shoot, they already had an explanation for that, that it had been Slim Givens', and that it had been eaten before the lunch break. Wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier either for Slim to admit it, or at least to have lied about something someone else (Bill Shelley) already remembered? Fewer webs to weave ....

And you're right, I meant Slim, not Danny.