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The .45 caliber round possible


Lee Forman
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Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.

1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067

Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate

2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'

"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin Bormann

In August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.

Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.

Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.

Is any of this true?

Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.

"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.

3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.

Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm

(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)

(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)

(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)

(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.

Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'

John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]

There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html

Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html

He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.

Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.

Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.

Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.

However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?

It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.

Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!

There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.

One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.

In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!

From the Whitewash...

Mr. Dulles.

May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.

...

"Mr. Dulles.

He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."

Brilliant Allen.

Edited by Lee Forman
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Jim Murray Contact sheet with many thanks to John Woods. Hard to imagine all this trouble over a skull fragment, when Harry Holmes throws them in the garbage. Walthers appears to be keenly interested. No surprise that Walthers would have changed his story after-the-fact. Anyone have his original statements? I don't find anything in the DPD files except one report by 'B Walters [sic]' and it's not related to a .45 round.

Edited by Lee Forman
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Jim Murray Contact sheet with many thanks to John Woods. Hard to imagine all this trouble over a skull fragment, when Harry Holmes throws them in the garbage. Walthers appears to be keenly interested. No surprise that Walthers would have changed his story after-the-fact. Anyone have his original statements? I don't find anything in the DPD files except one report by 'B Walters [sic]' and it's not related to a .45 round.

Lee,

Do you have a copy of the documentary "The Garrison Tapes"? If so, just over half an hour into it, you'll find a remarkably clear image of both the discharged shell and the man retrieving it.

Paul

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  • 4 weeks later...
Jim Murray Contact sheet with many thanks to John Woods. Hard to imagine all this trouble over a skull fragment, when Harry Holmes throws them in the garbage. Walthers appears to be keenly interested. No surprise that Walthers would have changed his story after-the-fact. Anyone have his original statements? I don't find anything in the DPD files except one report by 'B Walters [sic]' and it's not related to a .45 round.

Lee,

Do you have a copy of the documentary "The Garrison Tapes"? If so, just over half an hour into it, you'll find a remarkably clear image of both the discharged shell and the man retrieving it.

Paul

Thanks Paul - I will have a look.

Clay Shaw trial - Randolph Carr. I assume that the strike to the grass witnessed by Carr is the same as the furrows witnessed by Hartmann and the same as the .45 round that was dug out of the dirt in this location.

Q: And right before the three successive shots you saw a bullet hit in the middle of Dealey Plaza, is that correct?

A: Repeat that, please.

Q: Right before hearing the three successive shots you saw a bullet hit in the middle of Dealey Plaza, right?

A: No, sir, upon hearing the three successive shots, sir, I saw one, one of those three hit in Dealey Plaza in the grass.

Q: I see. Did you ever go and look for the hole where it hit?

A: No, sir, I have not.

Q: Did you ever try to recover the pellet? :eek

A: No, sir, I have not.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=53730

From Don Roberdeau's post...

so they moved down into the north infield grass and ended up standing near the Elm Street south curb sewer. EDNA was looking down and around in the grass surrounding the cement apron of what EDNA called the "manhole sewer," and she was immediately attracted to notice a small hole opening in the nearby grass, where, around this hole opening, the grass was raised up noticeably around the hole opening, and a raised furrow track extended in a straight line from the hole opening.

EDNA said of the bullet track that they looked at, and, also, physically explored with their hands and fingers, that the bullet track was

<QUOTE>

a piece of dirt raised up like a ground mole would, but it didn't go down, it went in the--across the ground, under it, and I bent over and I traced it for several feet back, and a policeman appeared ((JOE FOSTER?)) and traced it with me, and I said

'What in the world is this? It's like a ground mole hole, but I've never seen one so long'

and he (the DPD policeman) said

'That's where a bullet went through'

and it traveled quite a ways back, but it did not come out of the ground. I said

'Well, it did not come out?'

and he said

'No. It's still in there'

and as we turned around to go back to the curb to see where it had come from--there was a nick there in the curb--and just then all the motorcycles came at one time underneath...underneath 183.

<END QUOTE>

(((( THERE WAS A NICK THERE--not 157' further away southwest where the "Tague curb impact" was--IN THE CURB !! ))))

The FBI did not take their statement until July 1964 (warrenatti CD1518). EDNA said the FBI acted like when the HARTMAN's went to the FBI to volunteer their detailed observations that their detailed observations were not important to the FBI nor the investigation, and it did not matter to the FBI whether the HARTMAN's made a statement or not.

EDNA said the FBI told them that the bullet track was caused by "pieces of bone from the skull of the president," but EDNA said "I told them I did not believe a bone could do all of that."

EDNA told OAKES,

<QUOTE>

The angle it (the bullet track) was, it could not have been from the president's skull

<END QUOTE>

When OAKES asked EDNA if the HARTMAN's ever told the FBI that--based on the direction the raised-grass bullet track furrow was pointing at--if the HARTMAN's had ever told the FBI that they thought the bullet track furrow pointed at the depository?, EDNA said no, they did not tell the FBI that.

So this round [probably a .45] was then dug from the grass, witnessed by Buddy Walthers [whom was later made to deny having seen it], and collected by an individual with the FBI - as far as I can make things out. It appears to be separate and distinct from the shot which struck the manhole cover 'skirt' in addition to the curb strike on Main which wounded Tague.

Murray crops of the area which seem to coincide with the details provided by Hartman, Carr and others.

The location is puzzling, since this round would then also not have been associated with the one which reportedly clanged off the DPD motorcycle fender. This round would have had to have been dug out of the ground - thought I read about that someplace, but can't find it at the moment.

JW Foster from Larry Sneed's No More Silence.

- lee

Edited by Lee Forman
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He sounds a bit confused like everyone else about the details, but Al Maddox, taken from Sneed's No More Silence, also adds to the intrigue. I don't know what reason he would have to make this up - additionally, there were allegedly two furrows in the grass, which is also interesting if you consider the possibility of both having been created by fired rounds.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...59575e33254771e

Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in

plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a

bullet" (19 H 467-68).

Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of pictures

showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes) and

watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at the dug-out

spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from the

turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the man was

FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special Agent

Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray also

photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been

cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegram,

captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy

lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in

reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime

lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where

one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."

Edited by Lee Forman
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For sale on eBay is a documentary done by Mark Oakes - sounds very interesting. Among other things, it seems as if Oakes was able to confirm the ID of the mystery individual seem with Buddy Walthers in the area of the furrow, as Robert Barrett of the FBI. If indeed this was a .45 round, it's quite curious, as it is hard to imagine this type of caliber being used at anything less than short range.

ON THE TRAIL OF THE MYSTERY F.B.I. MAN, by Mark Oakes is a 1 hour and 4 minute VHS. You will see documented evidence and interviews about the bullet that was recovered on the south side of Elm Street 10 minutes after the assassination of JFK, it was never submitted into the official record, These exclusive interviews by Mark Oakes have never been seen on any documentary before. FBI agent Robert Barrett denied for years it was him in those damning photos taken 10 minutes after the assassination. Mark Oakes confirms it was Robert Barrett.

More from Carr:

CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT

PARISH OF ORLEANS

STATE OF LOUISIANA

STATE OF LOUISIANA vs. CLAY L. SHAW

198-059

1426 (30)

SECTION "C"

EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY TAKEN IN OPEN COURT

February 19, 1969

B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, Mr. Carr is unable to walk because of a recent accident, and we understand the Defense has no objection, if the Court will permit, to have Mr. Carr wheeled right in front of the State Counsel table.

...

Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: Would you tell us what happened.

A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came --

...

Q: Now, you say you heard gunfire. Will you tell us again what you heard.

A: Yes, sir. The first I heard, I made the statement before the objection, I say it was small arms, a pistol --

MR. DYMOND: He has not been qualified --

THE COURT: Just say what kind of noise you heard.

BY MR. GARRISON:

Q: What kind of noise did you hear?

A: I heard a shot. There was a pause and immediately after that there were three shots in succession.

Q: Were you able to tell from where the first shot was coming?

A: No, sir, not the first one I could not tell the direction it come from.

Q: Were you able to tell from where the three shots came from which followed?

A: Yes, I was.

Q: Where did they come from?

A: They came from the -- from where I was standing at the new courthouse, they came from in this direction here, behind this picket fence, and one knocked a bunch of grass up along in this area here (indicating), this area here is flat, looking at it from here, but the actual way it is, it is on a slope up this way and you could tell from the way it knocked it up that the bullet came from this direction (indicating).

Q: Now, when you just touched the ruler to this mockup, what was the area which you were describing as the source of the three shots, can you describe it a little more precisely?

A: Yes, there was a picket fence along in this area here, it does not show it in here, and it seems the shots came from this direction, and underneath that slope there were people.

Q: And what happened?

A: The shots came from this direction, from behind this picket fence that I do not see here, and there is a slope here, there is a grassy slope down here and there were a lot of people, spectators down here, below on this grassy slope, but when those shots were fired the motorcycle policemen, the Secret Service and what-have-you, all came in this direction, the way the shots came from, some of the people that were sitting there or standing fell to the ground as if the shots were coming off of those --

MR. DYMOND: I object to his conclusion, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: It is not a conclusion, Your Honor, I saw it.

MR. DYMOND: I ask the witness be instructed to wait for the Court's ruling.

THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

MR. DYMOND: To which ruling Counsel objects and reserves a bill of exception on the conclusions of the witness. I will make the Defense objection, all the questions propounded to this witness, the entire record and the Court's ruling, parts of the bill.

BY MR. GARRISON:

Q: Now, of those shots, which of the three shots did you hear coming from that area you have just pointed out by the picket fence on the knoll?

A: The three shots, the last three shots came from this area.

Q: Did the three shots seem break apart in time or very close in time?

A: No, sir, they were fired from a semi-automatic or either --

MR. DYMOND: I object to this.

THE COURT: Just tell us the sequence, Mr. Carr.

BY MR. GARRISON:

Q: You can tell us whether they sounded close or separate.

A: Yes, they were very close together.

Q: If you were to say with your voice "BOOM" three times, could you give us the approximate separation as you recall it?

A: Well, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM, just in that order.

Q: All right. Now, I am not going into the whole thing there, but just so that we can see where the spot was on the photomap, now, "S-34," Mr. Carr, that you are looking at now, an aerial photograph of the scene --

A: Yes.

Q: -- could you orient yourself, can you identify everything by looking at the area photograph?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you show us the are from which you heard the three shots coming on the area photograph?

A: The three shots came from in this direction right here (indicating).

Q: Can you recognize the cement arcade in the area photograph?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, are you able to recall from which ends of the cement arcade the three shots came from, was it from the end towards the Depository or the end towards the overpass?

A: At the end towards the overpass, right here.

MR. GARRISON: Let the record show that Mr. Carr just indicated, would you point your ruler up there -- let the record show Mr. Carr is indicating an area on the grassy knoll in the vicinity of the picket fence.

...

BY MR. GARRISON:

Q: As the result of the conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, what did you do?

A: I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth.

Q: Were you called to testify before the Warren Commission?

A: No, sir.

...

Q: And right before the three successive shots you saw a bullet hit in the middle of Dealey Plaza, is that correct?

A: Repeat that, please.

Q: Right before hearing the three successive shots you saw a bullet hit in the middle of Dealey Plaza, right?

A: No, sir, upon hearing the three successive shots, sir, I saw one, one of those three hit in Dealey Plaza in the grass.

Q: I see. Did you ever go and look for the hole where it hit?

A: No, sir, I have not.

Q: Did you ever try to recover the pellet?

A: No, sir, I have not.

Q: Now, is it your testimony that the three, that is, the group of these three shots were equally spaced, that is, the space of time between the first and second was just about the same as that between the second and third?

A: The three shots were consecutively.

Q: I take it then that you would deny that there was one shot and then a relatively long period and then two fast shots. Is that correct?

A: Yes, I sure would.

Q: I take it -- go ahead, sir.

A: I am sorry, sir, go ahead. I said I heard one shot, there was a pause and then I heard three consecutive shots.

Q: I take it then that you would also deny that of those three successive shots, there were two rapid ones and then a relatively long period and then a third one. Is that right?

A: Yes, I would.

MR. DYMOND: That's all, sir.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GARRISON:

Q: Just one more question, Mr. Carr. Would you just take your -- would you just take your time and in your own words describe with reference to the photomap the direc- tion of that shot which you observed furrowing on through the grass, from what area to what area, could you describe that, from what point to what point?

A: The shot was fired from somewhere in here.

Q: Just a minute, sir. This is going to be written down, what do you mean by "in here," from somewhere to where?

A: From this direction in here that shot was fired.

Q: You are indicating, to begin with, the grassy knoll area by the picket fence. Is that right?

A: Yes, sir, this is the first thing that attracted by attention as I explained to you before.

Q: But the direction would have been from there to where?

A: To in this vicinity right here (indicating).

Q: Well, if you carry the line down, would you identify some building or something on the map so that we will know precisely what you mean?

A: Yes, I will say the Criminal Courts Building right here (indicating).

Q: If the shot would have continued, you mean to say --

MR. DYMOND: I object to leading the witness, Your Honor.

BY MR. GARRISON:

Q: I will rephrase the question. If the shot had continued --

A: If the shot had not hit the grass, it would have hit the Criminal Courts Building, sir.

MR. GARRISON: That's all I have.

FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:

Q: Just a couple of questions. Mr. Carr, is it your testimony that you saw this bullet furrowing through the grass?

A: I saw the grass come up.

Q: You saw the grass come up?

A: Yes.

Q: And from that you are telling us from what direction the shot came and where it would have gone if it would have kept on going. Is that right?

A: Yes.

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For sale on eBay is a documentary done by Mark Oakes - sounds very interesting. Among other things, it seems as if Oakes was able to confirm the ID of the mystery individual seem with Buddy Walthers in the area of the furrow, as Robert Barrett of the FBI. (Lee Forman)

Lee,

I was always under the impression it was Barrett. I seem to remember reading a report that identified him.

James

Edited by James Richards
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Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.

1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067

Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate

2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'

"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin Bormann

In August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.

Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.

Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.

Is any of this true?

Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.

"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.

3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.

Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm

(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)

(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)

(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)

(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.

Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'

John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]

There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html

Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html

He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.

Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.

Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.

Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.

However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?

It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.

Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!

There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.

One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.

In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!

From the Whitewash...

Mr. Dulles.

May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.

...

"Mr. Dulles.

He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."

Brilliant Allen.

DPD found a file in the basenent a few years ag. It was turned over to the FBI.. (as I was told by a DPD Sgt. (certified) I hope the link comes out for you... I have a copy of the file. This bullit was found on the North Knoll at the far east end directly inline with the south end of the Tripple Underpass. Documented: This picture is not really a good one... but it makes the point... there are 7 pictures.... the drawing is from a "Subject" interviewed on another matter

I hope this attatched

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Share on other sites

Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.

1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067

Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate

2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'

"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin Bormann

In August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.

Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.

Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.

Is any of this true?

Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.

"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.

3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.

Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm

(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)

(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)

(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)

(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.

Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'

John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]

There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html

Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html

He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.

Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.

Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.

Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.

However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?

It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.

Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!

There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.

One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.

In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!

From the Whitewash...

Mr. Dulles.

May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.

...

"Mr. Dulles.

He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."

Brilliant Allen.

DPD found a file in the basenent a few years ag. It was turned over to the FBI.. (as I was told by a DPD Sgt. (certified) I hope the link comes out for you... I have a copy of the file. This bullit was found on the North Knoll at the far east end directly inline with the south end of the Tripple Underpass. Documented: This picture is not really a good one... but it makes the point... there are 7 pictures.... the drawing is from a "Subject" interviewed on another matter

I hope this attatched and I hope its the right picture.... if not I'll delete.

PHOTO TWO:

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For sale on eBay is a documentary done by Mark Oakes - sounds very interesting. Among other things, it seems as if Oakes was able to confirm the ID of the mystery individual seem with Buddy Walthers in the area of the furrow, as Robert Barrett of the FBI. (Lee Forman)

Lee,

I was always under the impression it was Barrett. I seem to remember reading a report that identified him.

James

**********************

Hi James :

You and Lee may have read the information here....a link to my work on this subect

last year on.......jfkresearch......

There is no positive proof it was Barrett but it is a close..

Dallas' Finest

http://jfkresearch.com/forum3/index.php?topic=1449.0

B............

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.

1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067

Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate

2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'

"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin Bormann

In August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.

Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.

Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.

Is any of this true?

Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.

"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.

3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.

Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm

(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)

(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)

(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)

(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.

Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'

John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]

There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html

Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html

He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.

Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.

Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.

Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.

However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?

It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.

Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!

There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.

One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.

In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!

From the Whitewash...

Mr. Dulles.

May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.

...

"Mr. Dulles.

He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."

Brilliant Allen.

DPD found a file in the basenent a few years ag. It was turned over to the FBI.. (as I was told by a DPD Sgt. (certified) I hope the link comes out for you... I have a copy of the file. This bullit was found on the North Knoll at the far east end directly inline with the south end of the Tripple Underpass. Documented: This picture is not really a good one... but it makes the point... there are 7 pictures.... the drawing is from a "Subject" interviewed on another matter

I hope this attatched and I hope its the right picture.... if not I'll delete.

PHOTO TWO:

Tosh, What is the date on that drawing and for whom did you draw it?

Again IF I REMEMBER RIGHT He said 1978 or there abouts Jay Harrison had all the details in his files... He gave me a copy before he died. And said he would "Kill Me", if I told anyone before he died. Some years later my brother became aware of this, I am told (3rd hand) I understand another person also had this information and he was with the Texas Rangers, or the Texas Department of Public Safty (not sure) I think, and his Grandfather was killed by Wallace at a Golf Course in Austin Texas... not sure of all the details.....

I protect my family and always have. My brother was with the Dallas PD, as you know, and I did not whant to cause him or my mother any problems. My mother is still alive at 90, and a few years back she was told I was dead in an aircraft accident in SA... that was not true, as Jim Marrs knows... my mother is 90 years old. and I will protect her from this until the day I die as well as my brother.

Ask Jim Marrs about this..... Perhaps he will crawl from benieth the rocks and say something.... I mean this in the nicest way.. Jim?....

I did not draw it for anyone. It was a causual conversation at the Rainbow Club in Dallas with an undercover Dallas PD contact....who processed it.

He showed me the bullit... and I told him... It meant nothing, because the chain of evidence had been broken. He told me. "We'll see" We never did. Years later Jay mention he received this information from that person... (un named on my part, still alive) You have no idea what your messing with.

Edited by William Plumlee
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Thanks Tosh.

You loaded 2 items, but they seemed to be the same - is there any additional info available?

The area in question seems to be in the general area as the position where the other round or rounds were recovered. The size of the round suggests a .45 caliber. The notation appears to be that a Whites DFX Metal Detector was used and that it was recovered 7" under the soil. I don't think that the DFX is all that old? The 7" notation is a tough one, because there is normal soil build-up and settling over the years - so even if we knew the year that this round was unearthed, still would need to estimate on the original depth. From some limited experience, it would have originally been something closer to the surface in 1963 - by several inches.

I don't understand the whole bit on the forked tree and the truck - was this added after-the-fact?

It's curious if you consider that Carr was under the impression that the last shots were fired in rapid succession from an automatic. If we accept the idea that Walthers pocketed one round - as per Maddox, and that Barrett had another, then this would have been the 3rd round - suggesting that of the 3 shots fired, all were after the headshot at 313 and appear to have been fired at nothing? Too bad that round couldn't have been processed properly and publicly. It could still have information available on it - even 40+ years later.

- lee

edit - grinding the gears here. If indeed we had a burst from a semi-automatic, well past the site of the headshot at z313, and all 3 rounds impacted the earth in the area of the manhole cover and skirt - this is looking more like cover fire to protect the getaway of the shooter, than a shooting position. Just thinking out loud. If the TSBD had a decoy rifle, as I believe it did, then the area of the knoll may have had something similar, to throw off the hounds.

Edited by Lee Forman
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DeepSix on the Delisle - it was a bolt action weapon, and therefore fails to fit the case - if there was in fact a heavy weight 45 caliber ACP automatic used from somewhere behind the fence.

I posted the Larry Sneed 'No more silence' Al Maddox piece elsewhere, but maybe it also belongs here.

Edited by Lee Forman
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Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I am in transit and its hard to find a computer hook-up and the time to reply.

Perhaps I confused the issue on this bullit.

About four years ago I and others made a request to the DPD to scan the upper east side of the NORTH KNOLL of the Plaza. While we were having coffee I was asked to draw a rough map of the area we wanted to scan with our metal detector(Whites DFX) . (confidentiality) from the DPD brought out an old DPD file with a bullet attatched to the file and report. They said the old file had been found missed place and lost. It was found "stuffed" behind a file cab in the year 1978 (the year the file was discovered) BLANK put the bullet on the "X", which I had drawn for them, on the rough crude map and took a picture of it. (seven pictures of the bullet in the old file.., and one picture of the bullet with the map I had drawn)

The "Fork Tree" is about where Sergio and I were standing when the shoots were fired. The "parked truck" and the south edge of the triple underpass was the path we took after the shots were fired as we crossed over the RR tracks and left the Plaza.

I was under the impression that the bullet had been found sometime around 1971 or there about. (Landscapers were doing work around that location (putting topsoil down and doing gen yard work) I was told the old file and report said the bullet was about "2" inches deep when found, but about "6" or "7" inches deep after the top soil had been placed.

We concluded that this bullet had no value as to any investigation because the "chain of evidence" had been broken and the details of the original find were lost to time. Our request to scan the area (about 2002 or there about can't remember for sure the year) was not approved by the City of Dallas. They did not want people digging up the Plaza "..looking for things that were not there") I always wondered about that bullet... was it planted there over the years by ??. Was it there in 63?" on and on. I am sure we will never know and it means nothing today as far as evidence is concern. It too, is just another "wild story" that lingers around the JFK mystery and that day one much like the person who said " a shot came from over my left from where I was standing near the "Forked Tree".

I saw your thread and remembered this information and posted. There are other pictures of this bullet and I have copies of it I obtained from the DPD. Now how I got this is my research and I will keep that all confidentual for now.

I do not take any stock in bullets found after the fact.... this long after the fact... I just reported a story about a bullet found in an old file given to me by a friend of the DPD, after I requested to dig up the Plaza looking for a bullet that might have been fired from the south end of the underpass.

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  • 9 years later...
On 12/21/2007 at 0:49 PM, Lee Forman said:

Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.

1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067

2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'

3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.

Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm

Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'

John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

From the Whitewash...

...

Brilliant Allen.

The John C. Craig article you linked doesn't give any source showing that Roger Craig ever claimed anything about a slug found near that manhole cover. 

 

Roger Craig was right next to those guys as they were poking around the grass near the manhole cover. In Reclaiming History, Bugliosi uses Craig's lack of any claim regarding this hypothetical Elm Street sewer bullet as evidence that it did not exist:

 

"...And even if we assume that Decker would have been able to shut up Craig as he allegedly did Walthers (since both were under him in the department), how was Decker able to shut up Sawyer of the Dallas Police Department? And even after Craig left the sheriff ’s office, became a conspiracy theorist, and turned on Decker and everyone else in Dallas law enforcement who he thought had covered the conspiracy, he never said one word, in his 1971 self-published essay, “When They Kill a President,” about Walthers telling him he had found a fourth bullet, which would have indicated a conspiracy. And in his essay, he had every opportunity to do so, once again mentioning that he spoke to Walthers shortly after the shooting in Dealey Plaza."

Edited by Micah Mileto
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