Weapons on Dealey Plaza

[Scott G. Edwards]

Recently I have read and found several writings about finding a Johnson 30.06, and along with that a casing which was filed by the FBI and now there was only the manilla envelope with a file number and discription written on it (the casing or the bullet was destroyed) I also understand that a bullet was found by a janitor on the roof of the Dal-Tex building, does any body know anything about these findings?

Thanks, ScottE

[Lee Forman]

Recently I have read and found several writings about finding a Johnson 30.06, and along with that a casing which was filed by the FBI and now there was only the manilla envelope with a file number and discription written on it (the casing or the bullet was destroyed) I also understand that a bullet was found by a janitor on the roof of the Dal-Tex building, does any body know anything about these findings?

Thanks, ScottE

Hey Scott.

There's a lot of stuff, but how much of it is 'official' and what is connected, and what is not - plus all the smoke and mirrors - makes it very tough to sort out.

There's the old 'Did you retrieve the pellet?' nonsense, the gun in a bag, the alleged loaded 38 found in Parkland along with the 'semi-fired' ce399, the Mauser, a shotgun, sparks on Elm, what Jim Marrs indicated with respect to a rifle having been removed from one of the pipes associated with the drain up on the underpass, the Heminger 30.06 shell casing, the Radimacher .222s, the .45 caliber round, the materials collected in the Lincoln, and on and on and on. At a min - here's a scan for ya from MIDP.

- lee

[Scott G. Edwards]

Recently I have read and found several writings about finding a Johnson 30.06, and along with that a casing which was filed by the FBI and now there was only the manilla envelope with a file number and discription written on it (the casing or the bullet was destroyed) I also understand that a bullet was found by a janitor on the roof of the Dal-Tex building, does any body know anything about these findings?

Thanks, ScottE

Hey Scott.

There's a lot of stuff, but how much of it is 'official' and what is connected, and what is not - plus all the smoke and mirrors - makes it very tough to sort out.

There's the old 'Did you retrieve the pellet?' nonsense, the gun in a bag, the alleged loaded 38 found in Parkland along with the 'semi-fired' ce399, the Mauser, a shotgun, sparks on Elm, what Jim Marrs indicated with respect to a rifle having been removed from one of the pipes associated with the drain up on the underpass, the Heminger 30.06 shell casing, the Radimacher .222s, the .45 caliber round, the materials collected in the Lincoln, and on and on and on. At a min - here's a scan for ya from MIDP.

- lee

Thanks Lee, Is this the same book by Fetzer? If so, how credible are these findings? (of course in your opinion)

I have just finished "Kill Zone" and find much of it to be within reason, at least to my way of thinking.

I know that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors out there but when items have been filed and numbered within the archives doesn't this give the item crediblity?

I know that it depends on when and where these items were found and cataloged that that could make a huge difference, chain of possession and all that!

Thanks again Lee, I really appreciate your response, Scott

[Lee Forman]

Thanks Lee, Is this the same book by Fetzer? If so, how credible are these findings? (of course in your opinion)

I have just finished "Kill Zone" and find much of it to be within reason, at least to my way of thinking.

I know that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors out there but when items have been filed and numbered within the archives doesn't this give the item crediblity?

I know that it depends on when and where these items were found and cataloged that that could make a huge difference, chain of possession and all that!

Thanks again Lee, I really appreciate your response, Scott

Hi Scott.

Sorry for the tardy response. Yes - that was taken from Fetzer's book. I think they are very credible - however, it doesn't mean that all of these events are necessarily connected to 11/22. For example, someone shot out the window of a car only weeks before 11/22 in another part of downtown Dallas - I believe that this is posted someplace on the forum. Were folks testing out weapons in preparation of the coming event? Did people intentionally plant false leads over time? I don't know. Some of this stuff can be found documented - some I was unable to locate anything on.

Nice post by Ben Holmes using some Dave Reitz below... He leaves out the Weizman bit though - I think this was also discussed here someplace - about Weitzman's psychiatrist...Bernice would be able to add that bit - I don't want to be mistaken. Heminger is missing. Also the .45 clanging off the fender of the DPD motorbike. Also what the wife of the Parkland Hospital director said [attached - also from Fetzer's book MIDP].

Bottomline - more than one shooter [Penn Jones believed it was 9 - each firing one shot]. Another possible is the scenario of the 'false' assassination effort mixed with a real one - hard to imagine that there'd be so many misses? We also covered some ground someplace on the forum about the possibility of automatic weapons being used, in additional to a double-tap using a semi. But does any of this material impact the outcome of the Whitewash? Apparently not.

http://www.piscesallmedia.com/forum/viewto...45bcd557c0558da

Date: Fri, Dec 28 2007 9:37 pm

From: Ben Holmes

A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has

been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on

McAdams site, he does post the pictures. (Sadly, he's not honest enough to tell

you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually

was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the

earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the

earliest ones): http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm

These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a good synopsis

of some of the evidence for other bullets:

************************************************************************

As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository,

five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the left

front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete in the

direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in

Dealey Plaza"; Weisberg, Whitewash, 187-89).

Royce Skelton was a railroad worker watching the motorcade from atop the triple

underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a

bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the President's

car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- away from the

building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard

object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).

Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis was riding a motorcycle about 100 feet in front

of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned the

limousine a nd saw debris fly up, presumably from this same bullet strike (John

S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw it; she

believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple underpass (7 H

508-10).

One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just south of Elm

Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Foster was

standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw

the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was instructed

to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystanders were kept

away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, although, again,

it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.

Wayne and Edna Hartman were near Dealey Plaza when the shots rang out. They ran

through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. Edna Hartman

later recalled to Jim Marrs , "He pointed to some bushes near the railroad tracks

on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from. . . .

Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mounds

made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the policeman said,

'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs, Crossfire,

315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in

plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a

bullet" (19 H 467-6.

Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of pictures

showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes) and

watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at the dug-out

spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from the

turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the man was

FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special Agent

Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray also

photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been

cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegram,

captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy

lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in

reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime

lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where

one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."

Richard Randolph Carr . . . heard four shots fired, the last three of which he

believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. He saw

a bullet strike the turf opp osite the knoll where it "knocked a bunch of grass

up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had been

traveling in a southeast direction from the knoll toward the Criminal Courts

building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; Craig).

Richard Dudman wrote in the December 21, 1963, New Republic: "On the say the

President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of

police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the

President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another

bullet in the grass."

The Warren Commission took Buddy Walthers' word that it wasn't a bullet or

bullet fragment.

There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from this one,

but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin discovered

it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a policeman, < BR>"you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that will

show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The mark very

clearly does not point back to the Texas School Book Depository; it appears to

have struck from the direction of the County Records Building, where a 30.06

bullet shell was found later (Griffith; Trask, 573).

Jim Murray took a number of photographs of police officers examining the spot,

including identifications officer Lt. Carl Day, who spent some time at this

spot with his crime lab kit (Trask). Because of the close proximity of the

strikes, it is possible that a bullet struck the manhole and bounced into the

grass, but given the high visibility of the grass strike and the reasonably

deep gouge in the turf, it's unlikely.

Another bullet struck the sidewalk along the north side of Elm Street. It

apparently was first discovered a day or two later by Dallas resident Eugene

Aldredge -- a gash about four inches long and a quarter of an inch deep.

Aldredge didn't report it to anyone, assuming it had not gone unnoticed by the

authorities. At least one photograph of it was taken; it is pictured on several

books, including Groden's The Killing of the President, 40. After the Warren

Report came out, Aldredge was shocked not to see the missed bullet mentioned and

notified the FBI (Weisberg, Never Again, 383-390). The FBI located it and wrote

up a report describing it as approximately four inches long, a half inch wide,

and a "dug out" appearance. Dallas Morning News reporter Carl Freund also

identified the mark as a bullet strike. Groden notes that the gash lines up with

the southwest sixth floor TSBD window; Harrison Livingstone notes it also lines

up with the south storm drain by the triple underpass (Griffith; Livingstone,

High Treason 2).

There are numerous reports of other missed shots; some bullet s have even been

found in Dealey Plaza, literally years after the assassination. In 1975, a

maintenance man named Morgan found a 30.06 shell on the roof of the County

Records Building, which is about half a block south of the Book Depository. The

casing has an odd crimp in its neck, suggesting it may have been fired from a

sabot, a device used to fire a smaller caliber bullet out of a large caliber

weapon. This is useful for criminals, as the caliber, type, and brand of the

recovered bullet cannot be linked with their gun (Marrs, Crossfire, 317). The

shell had been hidden underneath a lip of roofing tar, and was greatly

deteriorated from exposure to moisture; it had obviously been there a while.

A fired but intact bullet was found on the top of the Massey Roofing Co.

building on Elm Street, about eight blocks from the TSBD, by Richard Haythorne

in 1967. No official study was made until the HSCA pronounced it a jacketed,

soft-p oint .30 caliber bullet consistent with Remington-Peters ammunition; it

had not been fired from the 6.5 caliber Mannlicher-Carcano (7 HSCA 357; Carol

Hewett, "Silencers, Sniper Rifles & the CIA"; Craig).

In 1974, Dallas resident Richard Lester swept Dealey Plaza with a metal

detector, and discovered a fragment -- the base portion of a bullet -- 500

yards southwest of the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple underpass. Later he

turned it over to the FBI, and it was studied by the House Select Committee on

Assassinations in 1978. They found that the fragment was from a 6.5 mm bullet,

but that it had not been fired from the alleged "Oswald" Mannlicher-Carcano: its

rifling pattern was different (Associated Press, January 5, 1978; 7 HSCA 395;

Hewett). A whole, unfired .45 caliber bullet was found in 1976 by Hal Luster by

the concrete retaining wall on the knoll (Dallas Morning News,

December 23, 1978).

In the summer of 1966 , an intact bullet was found lodged in the roof of a

building at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee. The building was about a

quarter mile away from the Texas School Book Depository -- within rifle range

-- in the direction that Oswald had allegedly fired. The FBI identified the

bullet as a .30 caliber full metal jacketed military bullet; its rifling

pattern of four grooves, right hand twist is consistent with ammunition of US

manufacture. This is the type of bullet the CIA used with their silenced M-1

.30 caliber carbine rifles; civilians were not allowed to purchase them until

the middle of 1963, and full metal jacketed bullets are illegal for use in

hunting (Hewett, citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-5898).

Two spent Remington .222 bullet casings were found in Dealey Plaza by John

Rademacher, about eighty feet apart, one on each end of the concrete pergola

that stands midway between the Texas School Book Depository and the triple

underpass. One was just to the east, while the other was just west of it,

between the pergola and the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. One of

the casings has strange indentations which appear to be teeth marks on it.

Carol Hewett also notes, "The HSCA makes passing reference to the 'Walder'

bullet that was also submitted for testing; the author could find no other

mention of this particular item of evidence" (citing 7 HSCA 157). Hewett also

references "the report from a top FBI administrator, Alan Belmont, to Clyde

Tolson, Hoover's second in command, in which Belmont on the night of November

22nd advises that a bullet has been found lodged behind the President's ear"

(citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-1431), consistent with the Sibert-O'Neill evidence

envelope that was supposed to contain a "missile," not a fragment or fragments.

Is there any evidence that there were once more bullets or fragments than are

now in th e record?

In Arlen Specter's published questioning of the autopsy pathologists, he makes

repeated references to a file originally designated CD 371, then renamed as it

was entered into evidence. Specter introduces Commission Exhibit 397, stating

it is the identical file previously marked CD 371 "for our internal purposes"

(2 H 323). Researcher Harold Weisberg was the first person to notice that CE

397 seemed to be missing several items, so he went to the National Archives to

inspect the CD 371. He found some interesting differences between the

'identical' files (Weisberg, Post Mortem, 251). One notable document is a list

of eleven items written by Secret Service officer Robert I . Bouck, head of the

Protective Research Section, on Treasury Department letterhead, dated November

26, 1963. It acknowledges receipt of eleven items from Admiral George G.

Burkley, who had been John F. Kennedy's personal physician, and who took

posses sion (not necessarily in a legal manner) of a number of the autopsy

records. The seventh item on the list reads, "One receipt from FBI for a

missile recovered during the examination of the body."

A missile is a bullet. It is not a bullet fragment; a fragment is a piece of a

ruptured missile. Numerous minute fragments were recovered from the President's

body during the autopsy. Not a single receipt for a fragment or fragments is

listed on this document; they were transferred separately. This is a receipt for

an intact bullet recovered from John F. Kennedy's body; it appeared in print for

the first time in Weisberg's 1975 book, Post Mortem, 527.

Researcher Anna-Marie Kuhns-Walko turned up some interesting items at the

National Archives in 1996: photographs (several) labeled as being of a bullet

"removed from President Kennedy's body." It is not one of the tiny fragments

that have been part of the record for thirty-five years. No other information

is available: no photographer listed; no indication of when it was recovered;

or what part of the body it came from; or if it was recovered at Parkland,

Bethesda, or elsewhere. Just several photos of a bullet "removed from President

Kennedy's body" that no one's ever seen before.

Anna-Marie also discovered an empty envelope, originally marked, "Shell 7.5

found in Dealey Plaza 11/22/63. This would be an expended cartridge found

somewhere in Dealey Plaza, presumably not far from where it was fired; and

regardless of where in Dealey Plaza it was found (which the envelope doesn't

state), it's a 7.5 caliber, not a 6.5 caliber like the Mannlicher-Carcano. No

one outside a very select circle, apparently, ever heard of this item before.

Why is the envelope empty? Written right after the previously quoted

description: "DETERMINED OF NO VALUE AND DESTROYED."

******************************************************** *************

The above post was snipped to the relevant paragraphs dealing with evidence for

more than 3 bullets. I invite everyone to Google and read the original if

interested. There's more material in the original - and I snipped out some good

stuff that simply wasn't relevant to this post.

Clearly *some* of the snippets above could easily be referring to the *same*

bullet - simply at different perspective by different eyewitnesses. And some of

the snippets above could easily have had *no* relevance to 11/22/63. But the WC

ignored and ran from such evidence with a determination that can only lead

thoughtful people to the conclusion that they had already made up their minds.

The point I might make here is... where did the WC deal with all of this

evidence? Can anyone point to *ANY* attempt by the WC to explain away this

massive amount of evidence for more than three bullets? Examine the evidence at

all? Ask the FBI for clarification?

_________________

Justice is like the hawk. Sometimes it must go hooded.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Head for the top of the hill Jack.