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He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?

A: No response

[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?

A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?

A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?

A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?

A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?

A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?

A: No response

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally,

I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.

if there existed parental signatures and the like.

That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.

How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER?

It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.

We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.

Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.

He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.

If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.

I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.

; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ;Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received: (1) Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?

A: No response [current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

ANSWER Not at 14..... I was on 4 years Federal Probation... The document provided which supports this is sanitized... but there are others in file as probation reports of the time which are not sanitized. If I am to post ever document to prove to you every matter I say then we will be here for years.....If it goes to a court or investigated by proper authorities then those none sanitized documents will be provided.... and too I will share my research to some extant... but not all, nor will reveal all my sources to you or anyone at this time. Point being: I was 14 years of age.., on federal probation.., and went into the National Guard and then into the Regular Army... then back into the Army reserve at Dallas Love Field.

I did not lie about my age my birth date is on my discharge papers as well as where I worked. It was NOT LEGAL to be in the National Guard at 14.., let alone be on Federal probation for ITSA. Did anyone do any kind of "background check" on me before enlistment. A Kid walks into the army National Guard and says I'm 18 or 17 and I want to join? And they say OK here is your Tank.

Some months later the kid says Ok I think I will join the Regular Army and he goes and says I was in the National Guard and want to join. They say OK. Here is your rifle and your MOS of 006 basic trainee. The birth date is on the discharge and enlistment..., but they too, did not do a background check.... However after a few months and a promotion as Cpl he is Honorable discharge from the Regular army for being a minor and is sent back (not to the National Guard, but the Army Reserve and assigned a MOS of 1795 a Tank Crewman.. The boy is only 16 and a CPL in the Army reserve. Nothing strange about any of that... happened everyday...

And too I was still on Federal Probation until I was 18. 2. Q: If not, why not? A: No response

Why not What? [current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal] Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up? A: No response

There were about seventy of us young lads all under age and had been in trouble with the law and were now in the army I was in training with a few of these boys. I did not do the paperwork or ‘Sheep Dip" the 71 boys that were about my age. Cover up by who? Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it? A: No response

I Have a full VA disability because of injuries received while in military service; gun shot wound and in WBAH at Ft Bliss Texas where I was taken. I was in 14 days in traction after a two week stay in Korea as a US Army member. Got shot in the butt and was taken back to the states. After some years that got me full VA because started having bad trouble with my back, legs and hip.., because at the time of the gun shot I was also ran over my a jeep. Of course the VA verified all this before benefits were awarded.

Again I did not do the paper work or the "Sheep-Dipping" and cover up of a young boy of 17 or so. Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN? A: No response

United States Army. Go read a book on who were there and why. Us Military served in Korea long after the conflict was over... It was not a WAR.

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

This was long before the term "Special OPS" term was used. This was a program similar to the "Dirty Doz" used in WWII and ran by old OSS officers who had came back from the war Europe as well as the Pacific.

A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Referenced Court Sealed Documents and Sanitized Federal Documents as to this event. Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?

A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway with court approval as well as the probation department of the US Government. They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Beaumont Army Hospital for 14 days.) Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it? A: No response

This has been studied and investigated properly by a Varity of Federal officials and private investigators

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

What's your game and what are you trying to say? You have indicated that I run away from the Hard question... and you tone is "No Respond" to your hard questions as if I am a "Fabricator, perhaps even a xxxx.

I posted a statement in an attempt to help researchers trace a path to were I am to day and why..., and tried to back it up with just a FEW of the many documents I now have which now support my military and CIA associations...... Your tone and style I feel is to get others to doubt anything I have to say... I have the proof of what I say and have said over the years... Because you are a Johnny come lately" is not my fault.

However, I do commend you in your effort to untangle this and the truth in your quest toward the JFK matter. What you think of me is of no importance. I am trying to help, but its difficult.

Now you run along... there is nothing to see here.... If you took your "Blinders"off and walk with an open mind you might learn something..... How can you get to the truth when you will not even read what is available on this subject.... are you really being Object as a researcher?

Have you missed the real point of this thread? Have you tried to disprove an event that happened? Are you saying that I was not in the National Guard at 14, went into the regular army discharged and back into the Army Reserve as a CPL with a MOS of 1795 Tank Crewman and who has 100% VA disability today because of injuries received while service connected? What's your game... to cause me hours of typing to defend myself and stop me and others from working on this COLD CASE? What is your motive?

Again get real..., and get with the program... If I can help you I will... But if you want to lead me down NEVER-NEVER LAND....and tell me Black is White and White is Black... then I will not Respond to any of your slanted question regardless of your motives... And I mean this in the nicest possible way.

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Nice to hear from you again.

Your input has always been interesting, informative, and, nearly always, met with much resistance.

Considering the type of work you've done it doesn't surprise me at all that your records might

contain a few inconsistencies.

You have your hands tied, i think. If you reveal information which is still "classified" you would

certainly be prosecuted and spend the rest of your life in prison.

I think the fact that you still try to guide people to where they may find some answers is admirable.

Thanks for coming back.

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He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?

A: No response

[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?

A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?

A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?

A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?

A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?

A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?

A: No response

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally,

I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.

if there existed parental signatures and the like.

That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.

How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER?

It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.

We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.

Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.

He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.

If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.

I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.

Perhaps one should pick a few more "Nits"!

1. The "National Defense" Service Medal is awarded to all members of the NG/USAR/USA/RA, immediately upon enlistment.

2. After one has served for two years in any component, and has not been a "bad boy"/aka received any judicial (Courts Martial) and/or non-judicial punishment (Article 15), one is automatically awarded the "Good Conduct" Medal.

3. For ANY service in the Korean Theater, to include serving on a ship within the Terrirorial Waters, one receives the "Armed Forces Expeditionary Force" Medal (automatically awarded, just as are the National Defense Medal, the Good Conduct Medal, the Vietnam Service and Vietnam Campaign Medals)

4. Full record of RECORDED DAYS OF SERVICE in all components of the Armed Forces (Army in this case) is an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF INFORMATION, as it represents one's pay status* as well as ultimate represents that information necessary in order to compute time counted in achieving the 20-years of service required for normal retirement benefits.

*Example: Most of those who received their Commission to 2nd Lt. with me had less than two years of actual service. Thus, their base pay was approximately $250.00 per month.

Due to prior service in the MS National Guard, as well as RA-Enlisted active duty service, I went to "Over-2" years of credited service immediately after having been commissioned, and thusly, my base pay was approximately $500.00 per month.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.tpub.com/content/administration...s/14214_213.htm

BASIC PAY The pay of service members is prescribed by law. Members are entitled to receive pay according to their paygrades and years of service if they are on active duty in a pay status and not otherwise prohibited by law from receiving such pay. Basic pay is the primary means of compensating members of the uniformed services. Except for certain periods of unauthorized absence, excess leave, and confinement after an enlistment has expired, every active duty member is entitled to basic pay on a regular basis. The rate of basic pay is determined by a member’s paygrade and length of service.

Personnel having the same paygrade and time in service normally make more money than personnel in a lower paygrade and with less time in service. So you can see how paygrade and length of service are factors consider in determining how much a person gets paid

Emphasis added!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct calculation of actual credited days served in any component of the armed forces is absolutly essential for retirement computation purposes as well as credit for pay purposes.

Some of us, who actually have "Credited Time" for service in the "Inactive/aka" National Guard, as well as credited time for "Active/aka RA-enlisted", actually know how to read a DD214, and thusly would not normally be dumb enough to post one which directly contradicts what one is attempting to sell.

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Nice to hear from you again.

Your input has always been interesting, informative, and, nearly always, met with much resistance.

Considering the type of work you've done it doesn't surprise me at all that your records might

contain a few inconsistencies.

You have your hands tied, i think. If you reveal information which is still "classified" you would

certainly be prosecuted and spend the rest of your life in prison.

I think the fact that you still try to guide people to where they may find some answers is admirable.

Thanks for coming back.

I think those of us on 'this side' of the Alice-in-Wonderland' World of covert / black ops et al. can hardly imagine the constraints. An incomplete list would include:

- Feeling it not in the interest of one's best interests nor 'health' to speak to classified materials not out in the public to which one might know or have been involved in.

- Not wanting to 'out' someone who is a friend who was along with one on something one is speaking out about, but who [the friend] doesn't want to be known as having participated in [i.e. they don't want to speak out about it].

- 'Clean-up squads' or persons so adverse to the information being released, or potentially / possibly released, as to consitute a thread or danger - real or imagined.

- 'Places' where one could go with information where one would become possibly liable for legal prosecution for real actions or where there is false paperwork that set one-up as falsely having been involved - when was not [a common way to control low to medium level operatives].

-inability to get access to documents despite FOIA (and other means) or documents being overly redacted.

- and others...and all these are not specific to Plumlee - these would apply to many.

- This is what I was speaking to to Greg about - that along with some [yes, not all] slightly (or more than slightly) altered documents for some covert operatives made before, during, after the events they are dated for / addressing - it is not a WYSIWYG world.....sadly for the researchers and even for any covert operatives trying to come 'clean', in part or in full. Some of the smoke and mirrors with documents was built into the system....witness [as just one example] Tosh 'officially' being a 'prisoner' at a time he was actively a covert operative and the 'prisoner' status was their cover. That can be turned against him - and was constructed to be so....for then and now. Etc.

I happen to believe the money-in-the-locker was real and did involve Roselli, but certain powers-that-be had reason to hide that, and claimed the locker contained only a pair of binoculars. Alice in Wonderland on Owsley Acid wouldn't come close to all this. Read about Nigel. Read about Hemming. Read about Beckham, and so many others. The ultimate seems to be Oswald. It is not an easy job to discern the truth...and it was so constructed. We've made great progress. Let's all work to make more. The fog is clearing the further we get. One needs a great skepticism of statments made, as well [sadly] of some minority of the documentation - and certainly of all the documents withheld! The Cheshire Cat is watching over us all.

I think those of us on 'this side' of the Alice-in-Wonderland' World of covert / black ops et al. can hardly imagine the constraints. An incomplete list would include:

In that regards," "those of us on "this side'", never cease to be amazed at the absolutly absurd and stupid theories and concepts which some of those on "your side" have generated by their fertile* imaginations.

Fertile: As if thoroughly mixed with lots of BS!

One nice aspect of having actually shovelled real BS is that one easily and instantly recognizes fake BS when someone attempts to pawn it off on them.

Fake BS = Fake fertilization!---------------& one's tomatoes will not grow!

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He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?

A: No response

[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?

A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?

A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?

A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?

A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?

A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?

A: No response

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally,

I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.

if there existed parental signatures and the like.

That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.

How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER?

It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.

We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.

Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.

He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.

If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.

I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.

Perhaps one should pick a few more "Nits"!

1. The "National Defense" Service Medal is awarded to all members of the NG/USAR/USA/RA, immediately upon enlistment.

2. After one has served for two years in any component, and has not been a "bad boy"/aka received any judicial (Courts Martial) and/or non-judicial punishment (Article 15), one is automatically awarded the "Good Conduct" Medal.

3. For ANY service in the Korean Theater, to include serving on a ship within the Terrirorial Waters, one receives the "Armed Forces Expeditionary Force" Medal (automatically awarded, just as are the National Defense Medal, the Good Conduct Medal, the Vietnam Service and Vietnam Campaign Medals)

4. Full record of RECORDED DAYS OF SERVICE in all components of the Armed Forces (Army in this case) is an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF INFORMATION, as it represents one's pay status* as well as ultimate represents that information necessary in order to compute time counted in achieving the 20-years of service required for normal retirement benefits.

*Example: Most of those who received their Commission to 2nd Lt. with me had less than two years of actual service. Thus, their base pay was approximately $250.00 per month.

Due to prior service in the MS National Guard, as well as RA-Enlisted active duty service, I went to "Over-2" years of credited service immediately after having been commissioned, and thusly, my base pay was approximately $500.00 per month.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.tpub.com/content/administration...s/14214_213.htm

BASIC PAY The pay of service members is prescribed by law. Members are entitled to receive pay according to their paygrades and years of service if they are on active duty in a pay status and not otherwise prohibited by law from receiving such pay. Basic pay is the primary means of compensating members of the uniformed services. Except for certain periods of unauthorized absence, excess leave, and confinement after an enlistment has expired, every active duty member is entitled to basic pay on a regular basis. The rate of basic pay is determined by a member’s paygrade and length of service.

Personnel having the same paygrade and time in service normally make more money than personnel in a lower paygrade and with less time in service. So you can see how paygrade and length of service are factors consider in determining how much a person gets paid

Emphasis added!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct calculation of actual credited days served in any component of the armed forces is absolutly essential for retirement computation purposes as well as credit for pay purposes.

Some of us, who actually have "Credited Time" for service in the "Inactive/aka" National Guard, as well as credited time for "Active/aka RA-enlisted", actually know how to read a DD214, and thusly would not normally be dumb enough to post one which directly contradicts what one is attempting to sell.

Sir I respect your tours of duty (if any) and your military lineage. And I respect your opinions of me. If it makes you feel better to slam me and infer I am a xxxx and have never done or been what I say..., then that is O.K. too. I am not here to prove anything to you. However, for you to talk about medals, law, and the likes and apply all that to establish your self serving fact to cover your false observations about something you know nothing about is the mark of a very stupid man.

I could question your motives and I too could get into a pisxxing match with you on various matters... but you would not comprehend and would keep rattling about matters you know nothing about...... I will not justified my existence to you are anybody... so you keep on turning and churning and calling "white black" and "black white" the likes.... It makes no difference to me.

Sir I don't give a damn who you are or what you think you know about me, or What you think you are in the world of life..... I do not care what you post and I care less about the information feed to you by those who hide behind their BS and get people like you to wash their dirty linen to cover their tracks. I do know them and too, I know their motives..... Your nose is so brown I can see it from here. I know your type; a hanger on from another planet I believe.

If you have something to say to me then say it straight out in one complete sentence. You do not have to back it up.., just say it..... I respect your views, but being the type person you are, I do not expect you to respect me or my life. So be it.

You go on and suck up this space and others time with your views and expertise and self serving manner. That is ok with me. But if you have to do it... do it professional. Better yet I will say it for you...

I'm full of Crap.. (Oh you said that) I have never done the things I have said and proven... OH Yes, You Said That. I did not prove anything its all lies and fabrications in your view. Right? OH you said that.... You have established your point.

Now would you care to contribute constructively to the research to this Forum in its search for the truth of the JFK assassination?.. Would you care to record your views and put them out their for others to review and question you on?. Do you have an opinion about this case and can you contribute something factual and constructive one way or the other.... or are you just the type that does not have an opinion... You have an opinion about me and go to pains to express it.... Can you go through that same 'pain" and time, to put your thought down for the members of this forum to evaluate? I think not...its easier to slam me and others and create a false illusion of smoke and mirrors. I have wasted enough time with the likes of you.... I have to move on... you have shown me nothing When it comes to OPS your less than nothing... and so is your friend...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

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He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?

A: No response

[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?

A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?

A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?

A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?

A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?

A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?

A: No response

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally,

I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.

if there existed parental signatures and the like.

That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.

How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER?

It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.

We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.

Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.

He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.

If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.

I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.

Perhaps one should pick a few more "Nits"!

1. The "National Defense" Service Medal is awarded to all members of the NG/USAR/USA/RA, immediately upon enlistment.

2. After one has served for two years in any component, and has not been a "bad boy"/aka received any judicial (Courts Martial) and/or non-judicial punishment (Article 15), one is automatically awarded the "Good Conduct" Medal.

3. For ANY service in the Korean Theater, to include serving on a ship within the Terrirorial Waters, one receives the "Armed Forces Expeditionary Force" Medal (automatically awarded, just as are the National Defense Medal, the Good Conduct Medal, the Vietnam Service and Vietnam Campaign Medals)

4. Full record of RECORDED DAYS OF SERVICE in all components of the Armed Forces (Army in this case) is an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF INFORMATION, as it represents one's pay status* as well as ultimate represents that information necessary in order to compute time counted in achieving the 20-years of service required for normal retirement benefits.

*Example: Most of those who received their Commission to 2nd Lt. with me had less than two years of actual service. Thus, their base pay was approximately $250.00 per month.

Due to prior service in the MS National Guard, as well as RA-Enlisted active duty service, I went to "Over-2" years of credited service immediately after having been commissioned, and thusly, my base pay was approximately $500.00 per month.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.tpub.com/content/administration...s/14214_213.htm

BASIC PAY The pay of service members is prescribed by law. Members are entitled to receive pay according to their paygrades and years of service if they are on active duty in a pay status and not otherwise prohibited by law from receiving such pay. Basic pay is the primary means of compensating members of the uniformed services. Except for certain periods of unauthorized absence, excess leave, and confinement after an enlistment has expired, every active duty member is entitled to basic pay on a regular basis. The rate of basic pay is determined by a member’s paygrade and length of service.

Personnel having the same paygrade and time in service normally make more money than personnel in a lower paygrade and with less time in service. So you can see how paygrade and length of service are factors consider in determining how much a person gets paid

Emphasis added!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct calculation of actual credited days served in any component of the armed forces is absolutly essential for retirement computation purposes as well as credit for pay purposes.

Some of us, who actually have "Credited Time" for service in the "Inactive/aka" National Guard, as well as credited time for "Active/aka RA-enlisted", actually know how to read a DD214, and thusly would not normally be dumb enough to post one which directly contradicts what one is attempting to sell.

Sir I respect your tours of duty (if any) and your military lineage. And I respect your opinions of me. If it makes you feel better to slam me and infer I am a xxxx and have never done or been what I say..., then that is O.K. too. I am not here to prove anything to you. However, for you to talk about medals, law, and the likes and apply all that to establish your self serving fact to cover your false observations about something you know nothing about is the mark of a very stupid man.

I could question your motives and I too could get into a pisxxing match with you on various matters... but you would not comprehend and would keep rattling about matters you know nothing about...... I will not justified my existence to you are anybody... so you keep on turning and churning and calling "white black" and "black white" the likes.... It makes no difference to me.

Sir I don't give a damn who you are or what you think you know about me, or What you think you are in the world of life..... I do not care what you post and I care less about the information feed to you by those who hide behind their BS and get people like you to wash their dirty linen to cover their tracks. I do know them and too, I know their motives..... Your nose is so brown I can see it from here. I know your type; a hanger on from another planet I believe.

If you have something to say to me then say it straight out in one complete sentence. You do not have to back it up.., just say it..... I respect your views, but being the type person you are, I do not expect you to respect me or my life. So be it.

You go on and suck up this space and others time with your views and expertise and self serving manner. That is ok with me. But if you have to do it... do it professional. Better yet I will say it for you...

I'm full of Crap.. (Oh you said that) I have never done the things I have said and proven... OH Yes, You Said That. I did not prove anything its all lies and fabrications in your view. Right? OH you said that.... You have established your point.

Now would you care to contribute constructively to the research to this Forum in its search for the truth of the JFK assassination?.. Would you care to record your views and put them out their for others to review and question you on?. Do you have an opinion about this case and can you contribute something factual and constructive one way or the other.... or are you just the type that does not have an opinion... You have an opinion about me and go to pains to express it.... Can you go through that same 'pain" and time, to put your thought down for the members of this forum to evaluate? I think not...its easier to slam me and others and create a false illusion of smoke and mirrors. I have wasted enough time with the likes of you.... I have to move on... you have shown me nothing When it comes to OPS your less than nothing... and so is your friend...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

THE EDUCATION FORUM

Learning and understanding of military records and what they actually represent, is, not unlike virtually any other aspect of EDUCATION.

Just perhaps, there are those here who have learned a thing or two!

All of life can be a "learning" process, provided one actually opens their mind.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol19_0352a.htm

FORM DD373 (DD = Department of Defense, utilized by all brances of the armed services)

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He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?

A: No response

[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?

A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?

A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?

A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?

A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?

A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?

A: No response

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally,

I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.

if there existed parental signatures and the like.

That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.

How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER?

It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.

We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.

Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.

He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.

If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.

I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.

Perhaps one should pick a few more "Nits"!

1. The "National Defense" Service Medal is awarded to all members of the NG/USAR/USA/RA, immediately upon enlistment.

2. After one has served for two years in any component, and has not been a "bad boy"/aka received any judicial (Courts Martial) and/or non-judicial punishment (Article 15), one is automatically awarded the "Good Conduct" Medal.

3. For ANY service in the Korean Theater, to include serving on a ship within the Terrirorial Waters, one receives the "Armed Forces Expeditionary Force" Medal (automatically awarded, just as are the National Defense Medal, the Good Conduct Medal, the Vietnam Service and Vietnam Campaign Medals)

4. Full record of RECORDED DAYS OF SERVICE in all components of the Armed Forces (Army in this case) is an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF INFORMATION, as it represents one's pay status* as well as ultimate represents that information necessary in order to compute time counted in achieving the 20-years of service required for normal retirement benefits.

*Example: Most of those who received their Commission to 2nd Lt. with me had less than two years of actual service. Thus, their base pay was approximately $250.00 per month.

Due to prior service in the MS National Guard, as well as RA-Enlisted active duty service, I went to "Over-2" years of credited service immediately after having been commissioned, and thusly, my base pay was approximately $500.00 per month.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.tpub.com/content/administration...s/14214_213.htm

BASIC PAY The pay of service members is prescribed by law. Members are entitled to receive pay according to their paygrades and years of service if they are on active duty in a pay status and not otherwise prohibited by law from receiving such pay. Basic pay is the primary means of compensating members of the uniformed services. Except for certain periods of unauthorized absence, excess leave, and confinement after an enlistment has expired, every active duty member is entitled to basic pay on a regular basis. The rate of basic pay is determined by a member’s paygrade and length of service.

Personnel having the same paygrade and time in service normally make more money than personnel in a lower paygrade and with less time in service. So you can see how paygrade and length of service are factors consider in determining how much a person gets paid

Emphasis added!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct calculation of actual credited days served in any component of the armed forces is absolutly essential for retirement computation purposes as well as credit for pay purposes.

Some of us, who actually have "Credited Time" for service in the "Inactive/aka" National Guard, as well as credited time for "Active/aka RA-enlisted", actually know how to read a DD214, and thusly would not normally be dumb enough to post one which directly contradicts what one is attempting to sell.

Sir I respect your tours of duty (if any) and your military lineage. And I respect your opinions of me. If it makes you feel better to slam me and infer I am a xxxx and have never done or been what I say..., then that is O.K. too. I am not here to prove anything to you. However, for you to talk about medals, law, and the likes and apply all that to establish your self serving fact to cover your false observations about something you know nothing about is the mark of a very stupid man.

I could question your motives and I too could get into a pisxxing match with you on various matters... but you would not comprehend and would keep rattling about matters you know nothing about...... I will not justified my existence to you are anybody... so you keep on turning and churning and calling "white black" and "black white" the likes.... It makes no difference to me.

Sir I don't give a damn who you are or what you think you know about me, or What you think you are in the world of life..... I do not care what you post and I care less about the information feed to you by those who hide behind their BS and get people like you to wash their dirty linen to cover their tracks. I do know them and too, I know their motives..... Your nose is so brown I can see it from here. I know your type; a hanger on from another planet I believe.

If you have something to say to me then say it straight out in one complete sentence. You do not have to back it up.., just say it..... I respect your views, but being the type person you are, I do not expect you to respect me or my life. So be it.

You go on and suck up this space and others time with your views and expertise and self serving manner. That is ok with me. But if you have to do it... do it professional. Better yet I will say it for you...

I'm full of Crap.. (Oh you said that) I have never done the things I have said and proven... OH Yes, You Said That. I did not prove anything its all lies and fabrications in your view. Right? OH you said that.... You have established your point.

Now would you care to contribute constructively to the research to this Forum in its search for the truth of the JFK assassination?.. Would you care to record your views and put them out their for others to review and question you on?. Do you have an opinion about this case and can you contribute something factual and constructive one way or the other.... or are you just the type that does not have an opinion... You have an opinion about me and go to pains to express it.... Can you go through that same 'pain" and time, to put your thought down for the members of this forum to evaluate? I think not...its easier to slam me and others and create a false illusion of smoke and mirrors. I have wasted enough time with the likes of you.... I have to move on... you have shown me nothing When it comes to OPS your less than nothing... and so is your friend...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

Tosh:

FWIW, You'd save yourself a whole lot of time and energy if you just ignored the stuff Purv and his ilk write. That he is a lone nutter should say it all. His opinion of you, your military record and life is of zero value and you should give it exactly that. There are people on this forum engaging in meaningful questions and research for you. They are sincere about this case. Save your time and energy and words for them. Just my opinion of course.

Dawn

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Could someone post pictures of the South Knoll where Tosh says he was under a tree during the assassination? I believe I had those photos before, but they were on a hard drive that went bad. :angry:

Kathy Collins

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JAMESdealey.htm

Kathy this is an overhead which was posted a few years ago on this forum.... you might like to put "South Knoll" in the Education Forums search engine. You will find that this area or research is a "NO NO". and does not fit into the norm of research. There are other pictures which show the south side of the plaza and the "Forked Tree" shadow where Sergio and I were located at the time of the shots. However, some years ago when I told and pointed out the location of where Serigo and I were standing... that location was soon moved by some posting on this forum and it was said I could not be found in any of the photos and at that point the thread went into "Never-Never" land... It did not fit with the norm and popular views as to the assassination. The FULL uncrop Cancellaro (sp) was posted for a brief time but it two was lost to time... Peter Lemkin, Jim Mars, and Tim Carroll had detail drawings as to this location... but they too got bushwacked and their investigation turn away from this location of the '"outh Knoll"... I spent hours, years ago, attempting to explain the location only to be told I or nothing was there... Some were not even looking in the right place... You watch little Lady... Its going to happen again if you seem to be interested in this location. Tim Carroll (RIP) did very good research in this direction before he passed away last July. I wish you the best... review the old threads from about Nov 04 and on. and I think you will see what I mean. I am sure you are not going to go far in this direction... the buzards are lining up... their computers are humming and their mouths watering... Its their job... Have Fun.

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Could someone post pictures of the South Knoll where Tosh says he was under a tree during the assassination? I believe I had those photos before, but they were on a hard drive that went bad. :angry:

Kathy Collins

Kathy: Not to load you down. I get lost in these post so please forgive:

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/southknoll.htm

You might like to go to this link and the Cancellaro picture will come up (or should) The "Forked Tree" shadow is above the car, near the steps, south knoll....left side of photo..., to the left of the pick up truck... NOT above the pick-up, as some have pointed out. I am sure nobody else is going to help you on this... this thread will go dead. ..,off course I am self serving". I was told years ago that Tom Wilson had done work on this photo and certified this before he died... as yet I have not seen Tom's work or that his work has not been proven. Jack White said he had looked at it and that he could not see anything there.... case closed.

P.S. I believe in this young generation... I believe they can get to the bottom of this..., if they are allowed.. All of us old farts will soon be gone soon... perhaps we can leave something behind that at least smells and rings of truth. I have faith.., they have good noses and good values .., in spite of what this generation say about them.

Edited by William Plumlee
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