Pat Speer Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) CE 347 was a copy of an overhead photograph of Dealey Plaza, purportedly marked by Kellerman and Greer to show the limo's location during the shots. The photo as published by the WC was nearly unintelligible. Does anyone know if there's a better version available, so that we can actually see their marks? If not, then someone visiting the archives should create a clear scan of the exhibit. Since Max Holland has proposed the first shot was fired as the car turned on Elm, and as other LNs accept as religion that the fist shot missed at Z-160 or before, CTs have ironically been cast as the defenders of the WC, and the many witnesses who testified that the first shot did not miss. Exhibits such as this one may be instrumental in swaying otherwise skeptical members of the media. P.S. The subtitle of this thread was supposed to read "know of or have" not "know have." (It's fixed. ) Edited January 30, 2008 by Kathy Beckett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Pat : How sure of the numbering.....CE 347.......are you...?? CE 347 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=138612 Here it is lightened one degree...... B...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Pat :How sure of the numbering.....CE 347.......are you...?? CE 347 So you see what I mean? Kellerman marked the parade route on the photo (which is barely visible)) but he also is purported to have marked an X for the first shot and a single Y for the second and third shots (confirming that he thought the last two shots rang out together). On extreme blow-up I think I see his marks. Greer is purported to have marked an A, B, and C to mark the three shots. I can't see these. The circle in the railroad yards, by the way, was placed by Buell Frazier to show the location from where he thought the shots were fired. He was standing on the front steps of the school book depository. The HSCA analyzed the shots and concluded it would be extremely easy for someone standing in front of the building to tell the shots came from above... Wacky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 ""Kellerman marked the parade route on the photo (which is barely visible)) but he also is purported to have marked an X for the first shot and a single Y for the second and third shots (confirming that he thought the last two shots rang out together.."" And you believe it... Thought, certainly he did, with "invisible ink"...... Cropped, lightened and blown up... Gee thanks..... B....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 ""Kellerman marked the parade route on the photo (which is barely visible)) but he also is purported to have marked an X for the first shot and a single Y for the second and third shots (confirming that he thought the last two shots rang out together..""And you believe it... Thought, certainly he did, with "invisible ink"...... Cropped, lightened and blown up... Gee thanks..... B....... Absolutely, I believe it. It's right there in his and Greer's testimony. Both of them marked the photo. Now, it's possible that Specter or the WC tried to erase it, or that the marks faded, but it makes no sense to have them fake marking it in their testimony. At one point, for unclear reasons, they decided to start using a clean version of this photo. They called this CE 354. The CE 354 published by the WC did not show the actual marks, but showed where the marks supposedly were. I think these marks accurately reflect the marks made. Agent Hill marked the location of the limousine at the time of the first shot around where eyewitnesses say the limo was at the first shot. Amazingly, however, Agent Youngblood marked the location of the VP car at the time of the first shot, FURTHER down the road than Hill's mark. After that, the WC lawyers stopped asking people where the car was at the time of the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) ""Kellerman marked the parade route on the photo (which is barely visible)) but he also is purported to have marked an X for the first shot and a single Y for the second and third shots (confirming that he thought the last two shots rang out together..""And you believe it... Thought, certainly he did, with "invisible ink"...... Cropped, lightened and blown up... Gee thanks..... B....... Absolutely, I believe it. It's right there in his and Greer's testimony. Both of them marked the photo. Now, it's possible that Specter or the WC tried to erase it, or that the marks faded, but it makes no sense to have them fake marking it in their testimony. At one point, for unclear reasons, they decided to start using a clean version of this photo. They called this CE 354. The CE 354 published by the WC did not show the actual marks, but showed where the marks supposedly were. I think these marks accurately reflect the marks made. Agent Hill marked the location of the limousine at the time of the first shot around where eyewitnesses say the limo was at the first shot. Amazingly, however, Agent Youngblood marked the location of the VP car at the time of the first shot, FURTHER down the road than Hill's mark. After that, the WC lawyers stopped asking people where the car was at the time of the first shot. ************ Well I am glad to have found someone who believes even a part of the W/C....and unwaveringly, I do not mean that facetiously..... Was not this a Goverment Commission, was not Greer a Government employee....?? Was it not reported by some that their testimony was altered and some information not appearing within, upon the printing....??. Were some not pressured to change their testimony, and upon not doing so, found it had been for them......?? Apart from leaving out of course some very important witness that were never called, in the first place.... I do think you answered your own question, Pat, ""Amazingly, however, Agent Youngblood marked the location of the VP car at the time of the first shot, FURTHER down the road than Hill's mark. After that, the WC lawyers stopped asking people where the car was at the time of the first shot."" Nothing within the W/C can be trusted, nor taken at solid face value, as being complete to any given subject...within...... simply because too much was not investigated, or and not included, nor handed into them....... It is and remains an unholy mismash , of a government gone wrong......it was the final chapter in the Assassination of America.....at it's time... like the title of the books.....imo.. Thanks for the come back....I agree not to agree..... B......... Edited January 30, 2008 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Pat, In reference to CE354, here's brief testimony from Altgen's: Mr. LIEBELER - Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you at No. 3 on that picture. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. I think you are well aware of where Altgen's appears in the Z film. Many thanks to Tom Purvis for this revelation. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Pat,In reference to CE354, here's brief testimony from Altgen's: Mr. LIEBELER - Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you at No. 3 on that picture. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. I think you are well aware of where Altgen's appears in the Z film. Many thanks to Tom Purvis for this revelation. chris Chris, I looked through the testimony of a number of witnesses to figure out what all the letters and numbers meant. Here's a breakdown: Kellerman—347, marked the motorcade route, an X representing the location of the car at the time of the first shot, and a Y marking the location at the 2nd and 3rd shots Greer—347, marked the location of the first shot with an A, the second shot with a B and the third shot with a C Buell Frazier--347, circled the area of the railroad yards from where he heard the shots, marked this area with an F Hill—354, they had him re-mark the motorcade route. They had him mark an X at the first shot location, and a Y at the approximate position of the President at the time of the 2nd shot.(The head shot.) (Hill's X and Y are much closer to Houston than one would guess from watching the Z film.) Youngblood—354, marked an A to show the location of the VP’s car at the time of the first shot. (Ironically, he placed it further down Elm than Hill's Y) Rowland—354, marked a V to show where he was standing as the motorcade passed by, and an A to show where he’d been standing when he noticed a man in the sniper’s nest, and a B where he moved after that. He then marked a C to show from where it sounded like the shots had been fired, and a D to show where his wife pulled him after the shots. (I don't see Rowland's V--I think they transposed it as one of the two As on Houston.) Virgie Baker—354, marked with a 1 where she was standing when she thought she saw something hit the street, and a 2 where she thought she saw it hit. Altgens—354, Liebeler marked a 3 to show where he’d been standing at the moment of the first shot. Joe Smith—354, Liebeler marked a 4 to show where Smith had been standing during the shooting, and a 5 to where he thought the shots had come from. . Tague—354, Liebeler marked a 6 to show where he’d been standing, and a 7 to show where he’d talked to an officer after the shots.. Welcome Barnett—354, Liebeler says he was standing around Number 8. Later, Barnett changes his position to number 9.. Edited January 31, 2008 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Here you go Pat...compliments of the W/R...... B.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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