Dallas County DA's office finds cache of JFK memorabilia

[William Plumlee]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

[William Plumlee]

William: ""On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976. ""

Within "Cover-Up " Shaw, Harris, 1976...same book you refer to, but the title is Cover-Up.....the photos were taken by Jim Murray...

He ran over to that side, and took the two below.......From the south side, approximately ten minutes after the assassination, the photo

you refer to is on page 126, ..none appear

within the book, of the south side during the assassination..

There are none that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???..

The two appear below ....the top one below,not showing the transport truck, is the one printed within said book...

FWTW......

B.......

Thanks Bernice; Your photos are taken from the south knoll looking north, sometime after the shooting. The photo I mentioned is taken from the north side ( north knoll) looking south and was taken by Cancellara just a few seconds after the fatal shot.

There was another book by Gary Shaw and Harris published in 1976, title "Conspiracy". and it has the Cancellara (?) photo taken from the north knoll facing toward the south knoll about ten seconds after the shots were fired. (that photo has been posted on the forum many times. Perhaps some can repost that picture, uncroped.

I'll get the IBN and the address of the publisher. I have copy #648 of the first publishing of 3000 copies. When I get back to my office I will updated this post for you with that information. Shaws book was the first publishing of the 'South Knoll" picture which ??shows where Sergio and I were standing. And too, that was the first time I saw the Cancellar photo and I pointed out to Shaw and Bernard Finsterwald Jr., at the time of our meeting in Denver Colorado (1980-81) where we were standing at the time of the shots. Again Thanks for the postings of the other pictures and information. Hang in there...

BERNICE:

You were right on the name of the book being "Cover UP; The Governmenttal Conspiracy To Conceal The Facts About The Public Execution Of John Kennedy". by J. Gary Shaw with Larry R. Harris". It was produced, published and copyrighted by J. Gary Shaw in 1976. P.O. Box722, 105 Poindexter Dr, Cleburne, Texas 76031. (self published)

"... There are none (pictures) that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???.. ..".

The picture I made reference to is found on page 126 (top picture) above the Tyler picture on same page. The following page 127 is a full page overhead view of the Plaza. The picture on page 126 was taken by Cancellara on the north side faceing south toward the south knoll. It shows the 'forked tree' that some have said are legs but are really the shadow of the fork tree. We were in the shadow of the fork tree at the time of the shooting. I think page 155 shows Cancellara takeing the south knoll picture.

********

Hi Wiliam.

Yes the Murray's as stated were taken approx.10 minutes after.....

I just came back, to let you know, after digging out the book, that the second photo, Murray's with the Transport truck is also within ,on page 146......

The Cancellare you mention is there on page 126...above the first Murray............it is a poor copy photo as all are within, but the best they could do at the

time, too bad they did not use, a much better paper....but .......it is there....but it is

also cropped....according to full one I have......

..Which..I have posted here in the past .....for you, so you probably have it.....

Yes. I believe it to be Cancellare seen on page 155...taking the photo......that is a Rickerby photo....the one in Cover-Up is also blown and cropped.......

You will see the differences...................the first of both are cropped, as seen in Cover-Up, the second, the full as I have them.....

The Cancellare's and the Rickerby's......

Tosh when I get to it, I shall scan the Cancellare for you from Cover-Up, it is cropped as I have shown but it does not have the light, streak on the

left......then you can see it for yourself........

B.........

Thanks Bernice. Your most helpful. I think Peter Lemkin has a very good uncroped photo of the Cancellare which he gave to Tom Wilson to work on, in reference to two people at the fork tree shadows. Also I think our friend James Richards has a good clean copy. I could be wrong on this.

Do you have a picture of a train or box cars parked on the underpass a few hours after the assassination? If so this would show the height of the tracks above the baseline located at the bottom of the banisters of the underpass.

Thanks

note: the area in question as to the forked tree shadows is located on the far left of the picture you posted (Cancellare) above the lone man standing and just abouve the car top.

Edited February 22, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Chris Courtwright]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

[William Plumlee]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?

[Chris Courtwright]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?

Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.

No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).

Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?

[Terry Adams]

"Maybe it is time - in fact long overdue - for a Citizen's Campaign to write to the DA and urge him to do the right thing and that there are millions who what to try to get to what truths can still be brought to the fore and whatever Justice remains. Bill Kelly - if your dream of Grand Jury ever had a chance and the proper venue...this is it. Grab the Gold Ring and talk to him!" (Peter Limkin Quote)

Bill,

I can't add anything to what Peter has written above other than to say that when I was watching the Dallas County District Attorney during the news conference, I was thinking that if you had seen it you had to feel that this just may be the opportunity that we have all been waiting for. I remember you stating that this had to be brought before a grand jury by a DA, and it looks as if this is our man to do it. He mentioned that he was not born until five (5) years after the assassination, but I am sure that he is well read about how the Kennedy's were working hard to bring equal rights to the Blacks in the south, and the incredible opposition that they encountered. I feel confident that he will, at least, look at what you have. What do you think?

Terry

[William Plumlee]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?

Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.

No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).

Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?

I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)

[Chris Courtwright]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?

Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.

No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).

Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?

I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this!

Regards,

Chris

[William Kelly]

"Maybe it is time - in fact long overdue - for a Citizen's Campaign to write to the DA and urge him to do the right thing and that there are millions who what to try to get to what truths can still be brought to the fore and whatever Justice remains. Bill Kelly - if your dream of Grand Jury ever had a chance and the proper venue...this is it. Grab the Gold Ring and talk to him!" (Peter Limkin Quote)

Bill,

I can't add anything to what Peter has written above other than to say that when I was watching the Dallas County District Attorney during the news conference, I was thinking that if you had seen it you had to feel that this just may be the opportunity that we have all been waiting for. I remember you stating that this had to be brought before a grand jury by a DA, and it looks as if this is our man to do it. He mentioned that he was not born until five (5) years after the assassination, but I am sure that he is well read about how the Kennedy's were working hard to bring equal rights to the Blacks in the south, and the incredible opposition that they encountered. I feel confident that he will, at least, look at what you have. What do you think?

Terry

Peter and Terry,

Yes, we are in communication with the Dallas DA, and he will consider our Grand Jury petition.

John Judge has invited Craig Watkins to be speaker at the Dallas COPA conference in November, and sometime soon we are going to make a joint presentation to the Dallas DA office, and try to show them, especially the assistant DAs that there is enough new evidence and witnesses and that the Grand Jury is the place to take it.

He will welcome the petition because he can then say that he didn't convein the grand jury on his own but was responding to the citizen's grand jury petition.

But it won't happen tomorrow, as events are happening too quickly and on different fronts at the moment.

The Dallas Morning New just posted a batch of the records on their web site for people to go through.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/022208dnmetjfkdocs.15b53191.html

When we get the opportunity to make a presentation to the Dallas DA we will have to show him the best evidence and convince him of the necessity of obtaining the testimony of the new witnesses as soon as possible.

But at this point he considers all this history, and we must convince him that it is an unsolved, cold case homicide.

BK

[William Plumlee]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?

Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.

No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).

Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?

I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this!

Regards,

Chris

I do know that most of those, as well as I, did not care much for SOF's. They did more damage to sanctioned OPS that anyone could comprehend. GPH, as well as others, had NO respect among any of those operatives including the Cubans who were sanctioned by CIA. Because of the rip offs of these "loose canons and guns for hire", groups that ripped off the Cubans and their money which was put up in good faith and given to some of those organizations, caused many hard feelings. Some of these fly by night unauthorized operations were a real pain in the butt and caused us great alarm and even got some of our boys killed.

I think his mother was Cuban, but not sure. He did know Cicel Farnandez and others I can't recall who were associated with Alpha-66 and even one or two with Omega-7... although, we all knew most of those people. Nothing sinister at that point in time.

[James Richards]

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this! (Chris Courtwright)

Charles A. Waters Jr.

In 1963, he was approximately 27 years old, 5' 8", 150 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, light complexion.

When in New Orleans he lived at the Lynn Rose Hotel. Later moved to the offices of the Friends of Democratic Cuba in the Balter Building.

Waters would later appear on several committees including the Dallas Citizens for Old Time 4th of July Celebrations.

FWIW.

James

[Chris Courtwright]

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this! (Chris Courtwright)

Charles A. Waters Jr.

In 1963, he was approximately 27 years old, 5' 8", 150 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, light complexion.

When in New Orleans he lived at the Lynn Rose Hotel. Later moved to the offices of the Friends of Democratic Cuba in the Balter Building.

Waters would later appear on several committees including the Dallas Citizens for Old Time 4th of July Celebrations.

FWIW.

James

Thanks again, Tosh, for your recollections of Waters.

And thank you, James.

I gather that the rather specific nature of this information on Waters suggests that you are getting it from documents. Do you have the document numbers I can cite? Thanks!

Chris

[William Plumlee]

Thanks, Tosh.

I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.

The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.

I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.

By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.

Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!

Regards, Chris

In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".

I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.

He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.

Tosh -

It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:

In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and "guerrilla forces" for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in "flying tiger" leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.

Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald's name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.

Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.

Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).

Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!

I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?

Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.

No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).

Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?

I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this!

Regards,

Chris

Tosh, May I ask when and who told you Waters had gone or was to go to Dallas - or was in Dallas. Thanks.

Chris: I am not sure of the physical description... I just can't really place that for sure and I do not want to mislead.

Peter. I think it was Tracy Barnes or John Martino, perhaps both ??? I am not sure of the time line as to the exact time line. It had to be after the assassination, after we got back to West Palm. It had to be before I was extridited to Denver by Det. Stone of the Denver PD for that $50 ISF check they said I wrote (my wife wrote) but it was never produced in a court of law. (that cost Denver over $1500 to take be back to Denver from Florida on a $50 check that did not exist... documented... I think you and I also documented that when we were in Denver together... remember?)

I was in lock down before the WC was launched; released after it was over... never interviewed, except by the FBI's Scott Warner. I was in lock up at the Denver County Jail for three months and then sent to the Colorado State Reformatory for nine months on a sentance of "Indefinate term in the State Reformatory" sentenced by a Judge Sherman Finsilver (as referenced in FOIA FBI files) who a year or two later became a Federal Judge. The FBI Lab, said they could find "..no checks written by Plumlee...". I feel to this day I was "set-up". I'm sorry I drift.... but I'm still pissed about that, as you know.

Edited February 22, 2008 by William Plumlee

[James Richards]

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this! (Chris Courtwright)

Charles A. Waters Jr.

In 1963, he was approximately 27 years old, 5' 8", 150 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, light complexion.

When in New Orleans he lived at the Lynn Rose Hotel. Later moved to the offices of the Friends of Democratic Cuba in the Balter Building.

Waters would later appear on several committees including the Dallas Citizens for Old Time 4th of July Celebrations.

FWIW.

James

Thanks again, Tosh, for your recollections of Waters.

And thank you, James.

I gather that the rather specific nature of this information on Waters suggests that you are getting it from documents. Do you have the document numbers I can cite? Thanks!

Chris

Chris,

The information did come from a document from which I jotted the information down in my notes. It was some time back and I can't find the original document. My filing system is a disaster.

I'm sure a forum member who has access to the various on-line document sites will be able to help here.

In addition, I also seem to remember that Waters had direct contact with William Dalzell but the details escape me.

James

[William Plumlee]

Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this! (Chris Courtwright)

Charles A. Waters Jr.

In 1963, he was approximately 27 years old, 5' 8", 150 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, light complexion.

When in New Orleans he lived at the Lynn Rose Hotel. Later moved to the offices of the Friends of Democratic Cuba in the Balter Building.

Waters would later appear on several committees including the Dallas Citizens for Old Time 4th of July Celebrations.

FWIW.

James

James. In that document or do you know or remember, if his mother was of Cuban background? I was told today (awhile ago) there is a DPD file on him. Also, does the term "The Blade" mean anything to you. I have often thought this was in reference to Frank Struges (Forini?? my health is good... but other matters are going off the shelf.... I mean that in the nicest way directed toward me)