UFO's - man made or ET?

[Guest David Guyatt]

I think the first reliable sightings would have to be the 'foo fighters', seen during the closing stages of WWII - although we don't know what they were.

Unfortunately Evan, all the material I have collected on this subject is on my other computer which is not operational at present. However, a quick Google on Foo Fighters revealed the following (although the info I had stashed away was of a better quality imo, although tis ain't too bad).

I have extracted the following from a longer article:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/nazi1.htm

Taken from KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501

Sponsored by Vangard Sciences

PO BOX 1031

Mesquite, TX 75150

Foo Fighters and the Kugleblitz

by

Al Pinto

taken from ParaNet

additional material by Vangard

We, because of the infinitesimal size of the Universe, can

quite easily say that the probability of the Earth being the only

planet inhabited by intelligent beings is not logical. However,

while there is research going on today in order to prove the

existence of extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) by listening in

on the radio waves of space, I wonder; have we been contacted

already? Is there something in the UFO phenomenon that proves

the existence of extraterrestrials? Let's look at the facts.

Thousands of people from all around the world report the

sightings of strange aerial phenomenon every year. It has been

going on for many years, but not as much as from 1947 to present.

Due to the fact that so many people have seen objects in the sky

that they can't identify, we could at least admit that there is

sufficient reason to believe that UFO's exist. We can't

scientifically prove their existence just based on that fact but

we can't ignore it either. So our next logical step would be to

get more data.

Is the origin of all UFO's extraterrestrial? Is there a

possibiliy that at least some may come from Earth and Earth

technology? The answer to that question is yes, some are Earth

originated. People can easily mistake a plane or helicopter

flying at night as a UFO and have already. Some even thought that

Venus was one. However, while most UFO's could be explained,

there are an astonishing number of reports that cannot. They

include reports from people such as police chiefs, scientists,

pilots, and most interestingly, astronauts. There is plenty of

information publically available that is reputable about details

of their encounters.

Our next step should be to concentrate on these unexplainable

sightings. Out of these, is it still possible that the objects

could come from Earth? Dr. Renato Vesco thought so. In his book

"Intercept UFO," he writes about his experience and information

with Nazi Germany. I am going to include a paper written by him

but first let me tell you his credentials.

Renato Vesco is a fully liscensed aircraft engineer and a

specialist in aerospace and ramjet developements. He attended

the University of Rome and, before WWII, studied at the German

Institute for Aerial Developement. During the war, Vesco worked

with the Germans at the Fiat Lake Garda secret installations in

Italy. In the 1960's, he worked for the Italian Air Ministry of

Defense as an undercover technical agent, investigating the UFO

mystery.

He writes:

"On November 27, 1944, a B-27 of the United States Air Force,

returning from a raid on Speyer, West Germany, encountered a

huge, orange colored light moving upward at an estimated speed

of 500 MPH. When the pilots reported, sector radar had

reported negatively, because nothing had registered on the

screen.

But the object seen by the returning bomber was only the first of

numerous others spotted by American pilots over wartime Germany

and promptly baptized 'foo-fighters.'

Fighter pilots Falls and Backer, of the 415th Squadron,

reported such an encounter a month later forcing the Air Force to

admit that such objects might exist. Later encounters with foo

fighters led experts to assume they were German inventions of a

new order employed to baffle radar.

How close they came to the truth, they learned only when the

war was over and Allied Intelligence teams moved into the secret

Nazi plants. The foo-fighters seen by American pilots were only a

minor demonstration, a fraction of a vast variety of methods used

to confuse radar and interrupt electro magnetic currents.

Work on the German anti-radar Feurball, or fireball, had been

speeded up during the fall of 1944 at a Luftwaffe experimental

center near Oberammergau, Bavaria. There, and at the aeronautical

establishment at Weiner Neustadt, the first fireballs were

produced. Later, when the Russians moved closer to Austria, the

workshops producing the fireballs were moved to the Black Forest.

Fast and remote controlled, the fireballs, equipped with

klystron tubes operating on the same frequency as Allied radar,

which could eliminate the blips from radar screens. This allowed

them to remain practically invisible to ground control.

The Nazi Feurball failed to interfere with the Allied air

offensive. The foo fighters had been launched too late and could

no longer change the course of events, but in themselves they were

significant not only because they were the outcome of a technical

evolution which could have led to more dangerous weapons, but also

because they showed that Nazi technology had moved in a direction

far beyond anything expected by Allied Intelligence.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Duane, the article you posted makes me more convinced than ever that Roswell was a disinformation project. American research into anti-gravity propulsion was lifted directly from Nazi efforts and blueprints. Deflecting their efforts from the Soviet Union and other powers would have been the very highest priority (in m opinion, obviously). All this adds to my theory that the world has been utterly duped by what began as a disinformation campaign to conceal advanced research efforts which was later co-opted as part of the MKULTRA project to mess with the Collective Unconscious. Having a world-wide movement of tens and maybe hundreds of millions of people believing in alien visitation obviously has many uses.

I remain sceptical of Greer's true motivations.

Ron, So far as I am aware (and I dredging my memory from approx. four decades ago so please forgive me if I get this muddled or wrong), the first person to write about the Indian flying disc, the Vimana as very early UFO (extracted as you say from the Indian classic the Ramayana), was my old pal, Brinsley le Poer Trench, later to become the Earl of Clancarty (8th) when he succeeded his brother. He, and his mate and fellow Irish Lord, Desmond Leslie (who launched the career of UFO contactee, George Adamski), have much to answer for. Lovely genuine and quirky people. But less than realistic historians. Adamski's photo's of his UFO very clearly are drawn from Nazi prototypes.

Dave, the problem with us sceptics, old Tosher, is al the time we spend down the pub! But seriously, yes, I agree that the onset of age is accompanied with the onset of more critical faculties as often as not.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Carl Jung, the Swiss psychologist, wrote about the UFO phenomena in his book Flying Saucers - A Modrn Myth of Things Seen in the Skies. Jung was in fairly regular contact with Donald Keyhoe and other researchers.

Jung had this to say about the subject:

"In the threatening situation of the world today, when people are beginning to see that everything is at stake, the projection-creating fantasy soars beyond the realm of earthly organizations and powers into the heavens, into interstellar space, where the rulers of human fate, the gods, once had their abode in the planets.... Even people who would never have thought that a religious problem could be a serious matter that concerned them personally are beginning to ask themselves fundamental questions. Under these circumstances it would not be at all surprising if those sections of the community who ask themselves nothing were visited by `visions,' by a widespread myth seriously believed in by some and rejected as absurd by others."--C. G. Jung, in Flying Saucers

I mention this for two reasons, the obvious one about man's need for enduring soothing myths, as cited above, and the fact that Jung's work, especially his discovery of the nature of the Collective Unconscious, was co-opted and, for want of a better word, "weaponized" by the US intelligence community.

[Evan Burton]

David,

First off can I remind people that I do believe in UFOs - the ET kind. I think the chances of life "out there" are just too great, and that there is a very good chance we have been / are being visited. I just refuse to accept shoddy evidence or get excited over misidentified images, etc.

Now, I would question some of the article you posted.

"On November 27, 1944, a B-27 of the United States Air Force,..."

Now, I am nitpicking but accuracy is important. To the best of my knowledge, the only "B-27" was a proposed high-altitude version of the B-26. It was never produced, IIRC. They may mean a B-17, or a B-24; both were heavily involved in bombing raids of Germany.

Also, the United States Air Force (USAF) did not exist at that time; it was the United States Army Air Force (USAAF). The USAF did not come into being as a separate entity until 1947.

When the pilots reported, sector radar had reported negatively, because nothing had registered on the screen.

I question this. The allies did not have a sector radar at the time. The Germans did have area radar, used for guiding fighters onto targets.

Later encounters with foo fighters led experts to assume they were German inventions of a new order employed to baffle radar.

How close they came to the truth, they learned only when the war was over and Allied Intelligence teams moved into the secret Nazi plants. The foo-fighters seen by American pilots were only a minor demonstration, a fraction of a vast variety of methods used to confuse radar and interrupt electro magnetic currents.

Work on the German anti-radar Feurball, or fireball, had been speeded up during the fall of 1944 at a Luftwaffe experimental center near Oberammergau, Bavaria. There, and at the aeronautical establishment at Weiner Neustadt, the first fireballs were produced. Later, when the Russians moved closer to Austria, the workshops producing the fireballs were moved to the Black Forest.

Fast and remote controlled, the fireballs, equipped with klystron tubes operating on the same frequency as Allied radar,

which could eliminate the blips from radar screens. This allowed them to remain practically invisible to ground control.

Once again, I question a lot of this. It helps to have a basic understanding of radar. During WWII, the Allies relied upon the magnetron for radar. This was used to generate the high frequency signals needed for accurate radar pictures. The Axis tended to use the klystron - a lighter weight but less powerful cousin of the magnetron.

To 'eliminate' the 'blips', we have to look at a number of methods. The first is to jam the signals, making it impossible to actually see any return. This was done by both sides, as early as 1940. The second would be to add many 'false' returns, so as to confuse the operator. Both sides had the technology ("Window" for the Allies, "Duppel" for the Axis). It was basically very thin strips of aluminium, cut to the length of the radar wavelength you wished to disrupt. Each little sliver of foil would appear as a 'blip'. You could saturate the screen with thousands of false targets.

The last method involves completely absorbing the radar signal, so as not to produce a return, or deflecting it away from the receiver so that the "echo" is not received. Both methods do not involve an active transmitter.

Being on the same frequency as the Allied radar would have little effect, if any.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Thanks and duly noted Evan. If I get the opportunity to access my other hard drive I'll dig out what I have there on this. Meanwhile, I'l keep searching for material on Foo fighters and will post as and when I stumble across anything that is not outright nonsense (which, sadly, the bulk of websites appear to be composed of).

The following link maybe of interest as a general source on Nazi UFO's.

http://www.naziufos.com/NEWSCL/INDEX.HTM

This next site seems to have a large amount of fairly interesting material on advanced Nazi "Wonder Weapons" (from a quick skim of it, that is), plus a brief background on Kammler.

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/AN%20INVENTO...T%20WEAPONS.htm

If you scroll down the page there is some material on Renato Vesco and his Fuererball and Kugelblitz:

(direct page link is: http://naziufomythos.greyfalcon.us/renatovesco.html)

[Dave Greer]

I remain sceptical of Greer's true motivations.

Trying to throw you lot off the scent of course! (Damn, they're gettin' close...)

Dave, the problem with us sceptics, old Tosher, is al the time we spend down the pub! But seriously, yes, I agree that the onset of age is accompanied with the onset of more critical faculties as often as not.

All life's important questions can be answered down at the pub. The answers might be the wrong 'uns, but they make sense at the time.

Must confess I hadn't heard of the foo fighters (other than the band namesake). Any chance you'll be able to post some of the juiciest stuff when your laptop is up and functional?

I saw most of the video Duane linked last night. The most interesting part for me was the discussion of the filming of a Mercury (?) rocket, where subsequent development of the film revealed what appeared to be something flying past the payload and firing a beam at it. The source seemed genuine, but I tend towards skepticism unless I see something with my own 2 eyes and can come to a conclusion that way. I've seen too much mis-interpretation of photographic and video evidence to rely on other people's descriptions, no matter how reliable they are. That's the frustrating thing of course: the evidence itself has been salted away in a CIA data vault somewhere.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Dave Greer

[Guest David Guyatt]

All life's important questions can be answered down at the pub. The answers might be the wrong 'uns, but they make sense at the time.

Which just goes to prove that the pub is a parallel universe where different rules apply...

Must confess I hand't heard of the foo fighters (other than the band namesake). Any chance you'll be able to post some of the juiciest stuff when your laptop is up and functional?

The laptop is functional, it's the desktop pc that is suffering dismemberment -- no dedicated monitor, mouse or keyboard. To access it I'll have to nick my wife's PC accessories and hook up and then find a driver for the keyboard. Doing so might be injurious to my health. That's why I need my hammer back...

I saw most of the video Duane linked last night. The most interesting part for me was the discussion of the filming of a Mercury (?) rocket, where subsequent development of the film revealed what appeared to be something flying past the payload and firing a beam at it. The source seemed genuine, but I tend towards skepticism unless I see something with my own 2 eyes and can come to a conclusion that way. I've seen too much mis-interpretation of photographic and video evidence to rely on other people's descriptions, no matter how reliable they are. That's the frustrating thing of course: the evidence itself has been salted away in a CIA data vault somewhere.

I have seen this clip a few times now and also remain unconvinced. Ten years or so ago, there was a UFO film doing the rounds showing a small disc flying low and rapidly around a field and creating a crop circle in its wake. I took a copy of this to an old friend of mine who is an academy award winning animator --- and I have to say, a convinced UFOlogist. He looked at it, murmured and mumbled, went out to the shops and bought some bottles of wine (naturally) and b the time he got back ten minutes later he had the answer. He went to his mac desktop and fiddled with it for 20-30 minutes and then ran a clip he had created that mimicked the crop circle being made. There was no question in his mind (nor mine since) that he nailed the crop circle clip as a complete fake, as he was able to show how both had been identically fabricated. I contacted the magazine editor who had sent it to me for my opinion and tolf him what had hapened. Although he had the opportunity to publish the truth and show the fake film for what it was, he was not inclined to listen. He unwaveringly believed in UFO's and wanted to believe the film clip.

This particular film still does the rounds and is still widely believed.

Edited February 22, 2008 by David Guyatt

[Dave Greer]

I have seen this clip a few times now and also remain unconvinced. Ten years or so ago, there was a UFO film doing the rounds showing a small disc flying low and rapidly around a field and creating a crop circle in its wake. I took a copy of this to an old friend of mine who is an academy award winning animator --- and I have to say, a convinced UFOlogist. He looked at it, murmured and mumbled, went out to the shops and bought some bottles of wine (naturally) and b the time he got back ten minutes later he had the answer. He went to his mac desktop and fiddled with it for 20-30 minutes and then ran a clip he had created that mimicked the crop circle being made. There was no question in his mind (nor mine since) that he nailed the crop circle clip as a complete fake, as he was able to show how both had been identically fabricated. I contacted the magazine editor who had sent it to me for my opinion and tolf him what had hapened. Although he had the opportunity to publish the truth and show the fake film for what it was, he was not inclined to listen. He unwaveringly believed in UFO's and wanted to believe the film clip.

This particular film still does the rounds and is still widely believed.

Which is what I find exasperating about the whole thing. It's very difficult to separate the possible sightings from the obvious fakes, unless you're willing to review every single piece of evidence yourself - a mammoth task.

To cap it all, there are a number of Youtube's doing the rounds now which are CGI fakes. Very good fakes. It's increasingly possible for bored teenagers to produce good looking "evidence" while sat in Momma's basement, no doubt for their own amusement. It just adds to the flood of false sightings, disinformation and hoaxes that a genuine UFO investigator has to content with. And that means that the likelihod of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater increases.

I had a chat with a friend on this topic some years back. We came to the conclusion that if and when Mr E.T. does finally decide to land on the White House lawn, he'd better not do it on April 1st - no-one's wants to admit they fell for the joke of the century.

~~~

On another note, I'm interested in the Drake equation and the statistical likelihood of other civilisations existing. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that I'm prety much convinced, purely on a statistical basis, that other "intelligent" civilisations either do exist , or have existed in the past somewhere in the Universe. And very probably somewhere in our own galaxy. There's also the possibility that we may be the first. If others do exist in our galaxy, if they're not within 100 or so light years, they won't even know of our presence unless they stumbled across our planet by chance (I'm thinking of the earliest radio/TV broadcasts). Civilisations may have existed in the past, but been wiped out either through self-destruction, or some cataclysmic event they couldn't escape.

IMO the odds of a highly evolved, technological civilisation existing within easy reach of Earth, at the same time as life on Earth reaching the stage where they can begin to contemplate other life-forms, and even attempt rudimentary communication (SETI etc), are tending toward vanishingly small.

The wiki article on the Drake equation has estimates of N (the number of civilisations in the galaxy that we might hope to communicate with) being anywhere between 2 and 50,000. All depends on what numbers you use to plug into the equation - much of which is based on conjecture. I'd go for the lower end of the spectrum.

[Charles Drago]

That there are other intelligent beings in the Universe, I take as a given.

"Other"???

[Guest David Guyatt]

Our star is fourth rate and dull...as is our civilization [sic].

I do not wish to deflect this topic but I do feel that, on occasions, a little levity isn't a bad thing. Therefore, in view of Peter's above comments I offer the following for your entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcTHBOjnUss

[Ron Ecker]

Ron, So far as I am aware (and I dredging my memory from approx. four decades ago so please forgive me if I get this muddled or wrong), the first person to write about the Indian flying disc, the Vimana as very early UFO (extracted as you say from the Indian classic the Ramayana), was my old pal, Brinsley le Poer Trench, later to become the Earl of Clancarty (8th) when he succeeded his brother. He, and his mate and fellow Irish Lord, Desmond Leslie (who launched the career of UFO contactee, George Adamski), have much to answer for. Lovely genuine and quirky people. But less than realistic historians. Adamski's photo's of his UFO very clearly are drawn from Nazi prototypes.

When I was a kid I had a copy of the book Flying Saucers Have Landed, which as I recall was a joint effort, half of it written by (or for) Adamski, and half by Desmond Leslie. Leslie's half was "historical" stuff, while Adamski's half was full of what the French call m----e. The main thing I recall, aside from Adamski's photo of a UFO's underside, was his drawing of the lovely Venusian lady whom he met with in the desert. If she was really from Venus, she must have had a good tan, and would naturally take to a desert like a hog takes to slop.

[Guest David Guyatt]

I wonder if she was his succubus?

I always wanted one of those...

[Duane Daman]

You guys are gonna love this article I found ... I haven't even had time to read it yet .. but I just had to post it !

The New NAZI ET Lie ...... Nazis And The Grays ...... Nazis and ET technology - reality or delusion?

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Nazis%20and%...0technology.htm

Edited February 22, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Charles Drago]

I wonder if she was his succubus?

I always wanted one of those...

I had a Volskwagen bus.

And it sucked.

Close as I've ever come.

[Guest David Guyatt]

I wonder if she was his succubus?

I always wanted one of those...

I had a Volskwagen bus.

And it sucked.

Close as I've ever come.

Lucky bugger!

Volkswagens are soooo sexy.