UFO's - man made or ET?

[Guest David Guyatt]

You guys are gonna love this article I found ... I haven't even had time to read it yet .. but I just had to post it !

The New NAZI ET Lie ...... Nazis And The Grays ...... Nazis and ET technology - reality or delusion?

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Nazis%20and%...0technology.htm

It is an interesting article, Duane. What struck me most firmly is the fact that the people who have advanced the Nazi back-engineered a downed ET UFO story, cannot be traced. They are ghosts. This is a classic disinformation operators trick, imo... run the story and then let it be picked up and circulated until it becomes accepted as fact.

[Duane Daman]

You guys are gonna love this article I found ... I haven't even had time to read it yet .. but I just had to post it !

The New NAZI ET Lie ...... Nazis And The Grays ...... Nazis and ET technology - reality or delusion?

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Nazis%20and%...0technology.htm

It is an interesting article, Duane. What struck me most firmly is the fact that the people who have advanced the Nazi back-engineered a downed ET UFO story, cannot be traced. They are ghosts. This is a classic disinformation operators trick, imo... run the story and then let it be picked up and circulated until it becomes accepted as fact.

David .... I finally found some time to read that article and I agree with you ( though for very different reasons) that the entire article is nothing but a load of government disinformation.

Unlike you though, I believe that the alien presense on this planet is very real and that the proof of that fact has been carefully hidden from the general pulbic for decades... I also believe that some of the UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin and can not possibly be explained away as only being US military advanced stealth technology.

I must admit that the apparent Nazi development of anti-gravity saucer technology appears to be a reality ... but then that evidence has only recently been released to the public, so who's to say it's not disinformation also ?

This subject has gotten so confusing as to what is real and what isn't , that unfortunately the real truth about any of this will probably never be known ... and that's exactly how the powers that be want to keep it .

[Guest David Guyatt]

You guys are gonna love this article I found ... I haven't even had time to read it yet .. but I just had to post it !

The New NAZI ET Lie ...... Nazis And The Grays ...... Nazis and ET technology - reality or delusion?

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Nazis%20and%...0technology.htm

It is an interesting article, Duane. What struck me most firmly is the fact that the people who have advanced the Nazi back-engineered a downed ET UFO story, cannot be traced. They are ghosts. This is a classic disinformation operators trick, imo... run the story and then let it be picked up and circulated until it becomes accepted as fact.

David .... I finally found some time to read that article and I agree with you ( though for very different reasons) that the entire article is nothing but a load of government disinformation.

Unlike you though, I believe that the alien presense on this planet is very real and that the proof of that fact has been carefully hidden from the general pulbic for decades... I also believe that some of the UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin and can not possibly be explained away as only being US military advanced stealth technology.

I must admit that the apparent Nazi development of anti-gravity saucer technology appears to be a reality ... but then that evidence has only recently been released to the public, so who's to say it's not disinformation also ?

This subject has gotten so confusing as to what is real and what isn't , that unfortunately the real truth about any of this will probably never be known ... and that's exactly how the powers that be want to keep it .

Duane, I don't doubt your belief in UFO's or your belief that proof of same has been concealed. I have no problem with that either. Belief is one thing and fact is another. On ET I need facts.

[Dave Greer]

Does anyone have any UFO related experiences, or have they spoken to anyone else who's had such an experience?

I only have two that I can recall. A friend of mine saw what he was convinced was an ET/UFO a few years ago, when he saw what he perceived to be a thin bright disc flying at speed at night. As it got closer to him, he was able to resolve individual portholes, and came to the conclusion it was just an aircraft. He was convinced it couldn't have been a plane until he saw the individual windows after a few seconds. He was on the way to the pub at the time, not the on the way back, so I can't put his initial reaction down to the influence of Jungle Juice.

I only have one such experience, which admittedly was a few years ago so the passing of time may have clouded the memory somewhat. I was around 8 or 9 years old, while living in the Middle East. One night, I saw what I perceived to be a slowly rotating disc with small red lights on the edge. It looked completely bizarre to see this disc flying across a busy city at night. At the time I had no idea what it was: my best guess is that is was nothing less earthly than a helicopter, with the blades appearing to be rotating slowly due to a strobe effect. I will, of course, never know for certain... but the helicopter explanation fits the data although I didn't recognize it as such at the time. One of those times when Occam's razor comes in handy. So I'd say that this was definitely a UFO since I didn't know what it was... although almost certainly not of ET origin.

Anyone else have any first-hand experiences they'd care to relate, either explained or otherwise?

[Ron Ecker]

Several years ago I was riding in the back seat of a single-engine Cessna at night. It suddenly occurred to me to look back behind the plane, and as I did I saw a small bright light ("small" in that the distance was unknown), about level with or a little higher than the plane, rapidly move straight upward and out of sight.

I don't know what it was, or perhaps even more intriguing, what prompted me to look back and see it.

[Michael Hogan]

Duane, I don't doubt your belief in UFO's or your belief that proof of same has been concealed. I have no problem with that either. Belief is one thing and fact is another. On ET I need facts.

David and Duane, forgive me for interjecting here. What I'm about to say represents my views only.

Duane mentioned that he had read a book entitled UFOs and the National Security State, Chronology of a Cover-up 1941-1973. Generally speaking, I think the Amazon reviews are fair and relatively accurate.

http://www.amazon.com/National-Security-St...n/dp/0967799503

In his conclusion, Dolan writes:

The core of the UFO problem comes down to two possible answers. Both are startling, and both are difficult to accept, in their own way. The first possibility is that UFOs are the product of a revolutionary, human, technological breakthrough.....

Referring specifically to the mid twentieth century, Dolan gives his reasons why he considers this unlikely or impossible. He continues:

This brings us to the second possibility: that UFOs are the product of an alien technology. Without devising a priori arguments, let us simply look at the evidence, both historical and technological.

First, the phenomenon has always produced believers among those who have bothered to investigate it. For decades, every official study of UFOs followed the same pattern: extended analysis of the data persuaded researchers that aliens were the most likely explanation, a conclusion that was inimical to those in charge of the study. As early as 1948, Project Sign concluded that flying saucers were probably extraterrestrial. After the UFO project at Wright-Patterson AFB was revitalized in 1952, matters again reached the critical point, and most project members favored an extraterrestrial solution. This, too, ended in failure and dispersion. After 1966, when the air force carefully selected a university to solve the problem once and for all, a near mass resignation and UFO believers were fired midway through the project.

Within the military, as this study shows, believers in the ET thesis seem to have been widespread, but almost never discussed their views openly. The same can be said for the world of science, at least among those scientists that took the time to familiarize themselves with the problem. Aviation legends Hermann Oberth and William Lear both stated unequivocally their belief that UFOs were extraterrestrial. Navy hero Adm. Fahrney concurred....

There is no lack of important personages who attested to the reality of the UFO phenomenon, nor the belief that aliens were behind it. But what else is there? Unfortunately, there is no authorized piece of a UFO craft to analyze, although several ought to exist. We know, for example, that objects were recovered as early as 1946, during the Swedish Ghost Rocket wave. Something must have been recovered near Las Vegas in 1962, most likely at Roswell in 1947, and several other places over the years. None of these pieces are available, however, for obvious reasons.

What remains is photographic evidence, radar/visual evidence, and an enormous mass of witness testimony.....(numerous examples provide by author)

The easy thing to do with UFO evidence is to ignore it. Much harder is to confront it, study it, and ask, "Just what does this mean?" If we look at the evidence with no prior positions, no expectations of what are the limits of the possible - if we are purely empirical about the matter - then we can easily conclude that alien visitation is the most probable explanation......

By his own admission, Dolan speculates a lot in the concluding chapter. The rest of the book is objective, fair and documented in my opinion.

In a sense it is not fair to the author just to post a few excerpts from his conclusions. The book deserves to be read as a whole. Just as important as the discussion of UFOs is the author's reasoned analysis of the emergence of the National Security State after the second World War.

On another thread I posted a few brief excerpts from an author's book on the 9/11 commission. One member took the author's statement about bin Laden on tape as an indictment of the author's credibility. He well may be right about the non-authenticity of the tape, but I maintain that a book should be read in its entirety in order to ascertain how much value

is there. It's not unlike judging a woman ugly after seeing only a picture of a small mole on her cheek.

I seldom agree with everything an author writes on a controversial or conspiratorial topic. My post of Dolan's conclusions above don't necessarily mean that I share them. All I'm saying is that the book is worth reading by anyone with an interest in UFOs or a separate interest in the formative years of America's National Security State

Edited February 26, 2008 by Michael Hogan

[Ron Ecker]

One member took the author's statement about bin Laden on tape as an indictment of the author's credibility. He well may be right about the non-authenticity of the tape, but I maintain that a book should be read in its entirety in order to ascertain how much value is there.

I agree. But when an author apparently accepts without question (and therefore expects the reader to do the same) something that IMO is obviously bogus, I have to question his judgment or motive. It doesn't make me want to go out and buy his book, as good as it may be, because I don't trust him and might not know when he's putting something else over on me. I might well read the book if it's given to me, but not if I have to pay for it.

It's not unlike judging a woman ugly after seeing only a picture of a small mole on her cheek.

No woman is perfect. But some come really close.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Thanks for your thoughtful post Michael. I will add that book to my list of books to get.

I am somewhat cautious of Hermann Oberth, who was mentioned by the author, because of his Nazi past and close association with Werner von Braun and advanced nazi weapon systems. As far back as 1929 Oberth was thinking out of the box. For example, he conceived a weapon that was called the Sonnengewehr (meaning "Sun Gun") which was intended to harness the power of the sun using a 100 metre concave mirror in orbit above the earth that would direct a concentrated fiery beam on enemies below.

One of the research threads I have been following is the origin of the UFO's (myth in my opinion) and alien intelligence communicating with mankind. I have been able to track this back to the idea that an alien intelligence from the star Alderbaran, in the Constellation Taurus and one of the 15 brightest stars n the heavens and in some tradition has been regarded as the "fallen star" -- often a designation of the "fallen" angel, Lucifer. In Nazi mysticism it is regarded as the home of the Ubermensch or "Superman" a concept of the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.

Also, it is significant that the orign of the so caled "Grey alien" that came to popuarity in Whitley Streiber's bok "Communion":

This picture actually had its origin in a sketch made by the occultist (and head of the OTO occult lodge) Aleister Crowley who drew it in 1918 during a visit to New York City:

There is very little doubt that Crowley's pencil sketch of Master Lam is the origin of the classic Grey alien, as the following picture demonstrates:

Crowley's sketch of Master Lam came to him during magical ritual kown as the "Amalantrah working: and was part of what Crowley termed 'The Great Work'; the intentional cultivation of spiritual growth. According to Crowley part of the great work involved "the establishment of contact with non-human intelligences" - in other word, beings that were not of this world - or what we would term extraterrestrials.

This occult connection very much became part and parcel of both Nazi and US rocket pioneers. Jack Parsons, one of the founders of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory took over running Crowley's O.T.O. "Agape" Lodge in Pasadena. His pal was Frank Malina (the first director of the JPL - i.e., "Jack Parson's Laboratory"). Also a member of the Agape Lodge was Ed Forman another friend and rocket pioneer.

he following sketch was made by Jack Parsons. Note the arrow on the right of the page showing the connection between the original German rocket society (VfR) - which von Braun and Hermann Oberth were both important members of - and the Vril Society (an adjunct of the occult Nazi Thule Society) showing a picture of a nazi flying saucer/ufo:

In closer detail:

I wouldn't be so bold as to assert the foregoing is conclusive proof that the myth of UFOs and aliens developed from a German occult society (the O.T.O. - Ordo Templ Orientis) that was very closely connected associated with the occultist Aleister Crowley (who gave us the archetypal image of the Grey alien) and that these associations and myths found their way to the US and, in particular, to the US space programme, and onwards to current day thinking and belief in UFO's and aliens -- but I think it is fairly hard to refute that this actualy is not the case.

Edited February 26, 2008 by David Guyatt

[Jack White]

Does anyone have any UFO related experiences, or have they spoken to anyone else who's had such an experience?

I only have two that I can recall. A friend of mine saw what he was convinced was an ET/UFO a few years ago, when he saw what he perceived to be a thin bright disc flying at speed at night. As it got closer to him, he was able to resolve individual portholes, and came to the conclusion it was just an aircraft. He was convinced it couldn't have been a plane until he saw the individual windows after a few seconds. He was on the way to the pub at the time, not the on the way back, so I can't put his initial reaction down to the influence of Jungle Juice.

I only have one such experience, which admittedly was a few years ago so the passing of time may have clouded the memory somewhat. I was around 8 or 9 years old, while living in the Middle East. One night, I saw what I perceived to be a slowly rotating disc with small red lights on the edge. It looked completely bizarre to see this disc flying across a busy city at night. At the time I had no idea what it was: my best guess is that is was nothing less earthly than a helicopter, with the blades appearing to be rotating slowly due to a strobe effect. I will, of course, never know for certain... but the helicopter explanation fits the data although I didn't recognize it as such at the time. One of those times when Occam's razor comes in handy. So I'd say that this was definitely a UFO since I didn't know what it was... although almost certainly not of ET origin.

Anyone else have any first-hand experiences they'd care to relate, either explained or otherwise?

Back during the Sputnik era newspapers published times that various satellites

could be observed right after dark reflecting sunlight as they passed overhead.

Being curious, I sat in the front yard of my parent's house for a while looking

up at the stars which were just becoming visible. I was about to quit when I saw

a "brighter star" moving from east to west. I didn't know whether it was a

satellite or a high-flying airplane. When it got almost overhead, it suddenly

made A 90-DEGREE TURN AND FLEW OFF TO THE SOUTH AT TWICE THE

SPEED IT HAD BEEN GOING and quickly disappeared. It obviously was not

a satellite nor airplane. I have always wondered what it could have been.

Jack

[Duane Daman]

Does anyone have any UFO related experiences, or have they spoken to anyone else who's had such an experience?

I only have two that I can recall. A friend of mine saw what he was convinced was an ET/UFO a few years ago, when he saw what he perceived to be a thin bright disc flying at speed at night. As it got closer to him, he was able to resolve individual portholes, and came to the conclusion it was just an aircraft. He was convinced it couldn't have been a plane until he saw the individual windows after a few seconds. He was on the way to the pub at the time, not the on the way back, so I can't put his initial reaction down to the influence of Jungle Juice.

I only have one such experience, which admittedly was a few years ago so the passing of time may have clouded the memory somewhat. I was around 8 or 9 years old, while living in the Middle East. One night, I saw what I perceived to be a slowly rotating disc with small red lights on the edge. It looked completely bizarre to see this disc flying across a busy city at night. At the time I had no idea what it was: my best guess is that is was nothing less earthly than a helicopter, with the blades appearing to be rotating slowly due to a strobe effect. I will, of course, never know for certain... but the helicopter explanation fits the data although I didn't recognize it as such at the time. One of those times when Occam's razor comes in handy. So I'd say that this was definitely a UFO since I didn't know what it was... although almost certainly not of ET origin.

Anyone else have any first-hand experiences they'd care to relate, either explained or otherwise?

A few years ago I was at the beach with my girlfriend ... It was late at night and we were laying on a blanket star gazing ... As I was pointing out different constellations to her, we saw a couple of shooting stars that caught our attention ... Then directly overhead I noticed another "star" that was moving in a very rapid zigzag pattern across the heavens ... I pointed it out to her and we both watched in amazement for several minutes as this distant object zigzagged across the sky and then vanished ... This sighting happened before I read that other people have witnessed the same thing and that some of these sightings were connected to UFO's and alleged alien abductions .

I'm happy to say thay my girlfriend and I weren't abducted by aliens that night, but I worked with a guy a few years ago who wasn't so lucky.

Since Dave asked if anyone knew someone who has had a UFO experience, I will post his story later... and then watch David Guyatt say that all alleged alien abductions are only sleep paralysis.

I had a rather bizzare experience happen to me when I was three years old, which was possibly extraterrestrial, which also included a MIB ( man in black ) ... I will post that story later also, if anyone is interested.

Dave ... I very much doubt what you saw was really a helicopter... but then you know more than I do about Occam's Razor .. The "scientific" explaination for all things unexplainable.

[Dave Greer]

A few years ago I was at the beach with my girlfriend ... It was late at night and we were laying on a blanket star gazing ... As I was pointing out different constellations to her, we saw a couple of shooting stars that caught our attention ... Then directly overhead I noticed another "star" that was moving in a very rapid zigzag pattern across the heavens ... I pointed it out to her and we both watched in amazement for several minutes as this distant object zigzagged across the sky and then vanished ... This sighting happened before I read that other people have witnessed the same thing and that some of these sightings were connected to UFO's and alleged alien abductions .

What were your initial thoughts as to what it was? Do you rule anything in or out?

I'm happy to say thay my girlfriend and I weren't abducted by aliens that night

Ah, but how do you know?

Since Dave asked if anyone knew someone who has had a UFO experience, I will post his story later... and then watch David Guyatt say that all alleged alien abductions are only sleep paralysis.

I've had one or two "sleep paralysis" episodes myself, and in my case that's all it was, scary as it was at the time (although I subsequently developed a mysterious lump in my neck that started beeping...)

I had a rather bizzare experience happen to me when I was three years old, which was possibly extraterrestrial, which also included a MIB ( man in black ) ... I will post that story later also, if anyone is interested.

The more bizarre the better!

Dave ... I very much doubt what you saw was really a helicopter... but then you know more than I do about Occam's Razor .. The "scientific" explaination for all things unexplainable.

Occam's Razor isn't really an explanation for anything. Stated very simply, if you have two competing theories, then the simplest theory is most likely to be the correct one (acording to Occam's Razor). That doesn't mean that the most simple theory must be correct.

You're welcome to hypothesise about what you think I saw: I'll stick with boring, old helicopter as being the most likely explanation.

[Duane Daman]

What were your initial thoughts as to what it was? Do you rule anything in or out?

My initial thought was that it was a star, until it started it's rapid zigzag maneuver across the sky ... Then I had no idea what it was .

Ah, but how do you know?

I know we weren't abducted because neither one of us experienced any "missing time" .

I've had one or two "sleep paralysis" episodes myself, and in my case that's all it was, scary as it was at the time (although I subsequently developed a mysterious lump in my neck that started beeping...)

I've also had a few "sleep paralysis" episodes myself ... One where I perceived there was a giant, menacing looking Raggedy Ann doll standing at my bedroom door, and I couldn't move to defend myself ... Luckily for me though, I never got that beeping lump in my neck like you did.

The more bizarre the better!

For some reason I get the distinct impression that I will live to regret it if I post either one of those stories here .

Occam's Razor isn't really an explanation for anything

Well, I'm so happy that we can finally agree on something !

You're welcome to hypothesise about what you think I saw: I'll stick with boring, old helicopter as being the most likely explanation.

Does this description sound like a helicopter to you ?

"One night, I saw what I perceived to be a slowly rotating disc with small red lights on the edge. It looked completely bizarre to see this disc flying across a busy city at night. "

Maybe it was just one of those US military advanced stealth technology helicopters .

Edited February 26, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Dave Greer]

I know we weren't abducted because neither one of us experienced any "missing time" .

Grey's have developed "timeslip technology" to compensate for that.

I've also had a few "sleep paralysis" episodes myself ... One where I perceived there was a giant, menacing looking Raggedy Ann doll standing at my bedroom door, and I couldn't move to defend myself ... Luckily for me though, I never got that beeping lump in my neck like you did.

Lucky you! It's a right royal pain in the ....

Does this description sound like a helicopter to you ?

"One night, I saw what I perceived to be a slowly rotating disc with small red lights on the edge. It looked completely bizarre to see this disc flying across a busy city at night. "

Maybe it was just one of those US military advanced stealth technology helicopters .

Maybe it was!

I'm assuming the red lights were at the end of the blades, and it appeared to be rotating slowly due to a strobe effect, similar to how wagon wheels on those old Westerns look like they're spinning backwards. At the time however, my brain interpreted what I saw as a spinning disk. Maybe my brain was right (first time for everything)... we'll never know!

(All I could see was the rotating red lights. I couldn't see an outline of a craft, either terrestrial or otherwise).

[Duane Daman]

Grey's have developed "timeslip technology" to compensate for that.

Timeslip huh ? .. Now I see what you watched on the telly when you were a little kid... Or was that before you were born and they're now playing the reruns ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeslip

Lucky you! It's a right royal pain in the ....

Arse ... I guess so !

At the time however, my brain interpreted what I saw as a spinning disk

I'm sorry, but Occam's Razor doesn't allow for any of your own brain interpretation ... Just go with the most mundane explaination .. It's always safer that way.

[Evan Burton]

I've had two experience which make me favour the ET story - but like David G, I want proof. Almost everything I have seen must be dismissed as either fake, explainable, or very unconvincing. There is very little in the way of imagery that makes the grade.

Anyway, my experiences.

The first is when we were flying a navigation training sortie. It was either late 1985 or early 1986. We were in a HS748 at about FL180 heading in a northerly direction. IIRC, we were in the northern portion of Victoria or the southern portion of NSW, roughly due north of East Sale (our departure point). Melbourne Control called us and asked if we could see an unidentified aircraft to the west of us. We all looked out the left hand side of the aircraft. No-one could see anything. This was passed to the pilots to relay to Melbourne. I was still looking and a very small, bright object caught my eye. It seemed to be very distant, slightly above our level. It appeared stationary (as a distant object would). Suddenly, it shot off at a near vertical angle up into the sky. Before we could report nothing seen (I had not said anything as yet) Melbourne said to disregard as the contact had disappeared from their screens. What I saw may not have been the radar contact; it may have been coincidence - but I wonder. I filed a report and nothing more was heard.

The second was about 1998 or so. I was living in Cairns, Queensland, and a few of us were on the beach in the early evening (the beach faces east). Someone said "check out that light" and we all looked up to the west to see a bright, round light over the treeline. The light was in the distance and moving slowly towards the north-east. At first I thought it was perhaps a spotlight on a Police helicopter, but the light - though bright - was easy to look at. It continued to track in a NE fashion, appearing to speed up (probably because of decreasing distance) as it passed to the west / nor-west of us. The colour was now apparent as an orange colour, and I could tell it was not a helicopter. I began to wonder if we were seeing a meteor enter the atmosphere. The object continued to slowly move to the west, then nor-west, then to the north of us, apparently on a steady course. We watched it disappear in clouds way up to the north. This took about 5-10 mins. The aspect never appeared to have changed, nor the intensity. I contacted the local ATC to find out if there had been any aircraft in the area. Nope - nothing. I made a report to a national UFO centre.

The best explanation that has come forward is ball lightning. I t might well be possible that it is what I saw.... but I still wonder.