UFO's - man made or ET?

[Dave Greer]

Grey's have developed "timeslip technology" to compensate for that.

Timeslip huh ? .. Now I see what you watched on the telly when you were a little kid... Or was that before you were born and they're now playing the reruns ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeslip

Hadn't actually heard of that series! I was more of a "Tomorrow People" or "Time Tunnel" kid.

Lucky you! It's a right royal pain in the ....

Arse ... I guess so !

I meant neck, but @rse works almost as well.

At the time however, my brain interpreted what I saw as a spinning disk

I'm sorry, but Occam's Razor doesn't allow for any of your own brain interpretation ... Just go with the most mundane explaination .. It's always safer that way.

It is indeed.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Sleep paralysis? Me? I've had this myself more than a couple of times and didn't see a little grey guy, or girl, or even a succubus (damn it!). Wrong bus. Different train. Different platform even.

On alien abductions, I reccomend reading Martin Cannon's The Controllers. (written 1997), for other very feasible explanations. Martin made his bones in the mind control area, a very real and terrible subject. His is the most likely explanation for the subject, not-with-standing the usual human ability to expand out of all proportion to reality.

It is available here:

http://www.thestonecutters.net/xod/information/cannon.html

or here in the Google cache:

http://66.102.9.104/searchq=cache:MWewp54a...;cd=1&gl=uk

I do not think it stretching the point to emphasize again the apparent connections between mind control and ufology. Likewise the connections between ufo's, aliens and the occult -- and the aim of some of the latter groups in manipulating the Collective Unconscious towards eclipsed (for which read "occult") ends.

[Duane Daman]

Sleep paralysis? Me? I've had this myself more than a couple of times and didn't see a little grey guy, or girl, or even a succubus (damn it!). Wrong bus. Different train. Different platform even.

On alien abductions, I reccomend reading Martin Cannon's The Controllers. (written 1997), for other very feasible explanations. Martin made his bones in the mind control area, a very real and terrible subject. His is the most likely explanation for the subject, not-with-standing the usual human ability to expand out of all proportion to reality.

It is available here:

http://www.thestonecutters.net/xod/information/cannon.html

or here in the Google cache:

http://66.102.9.104/searchq=cache:MWewp54a...;cd=1&gl=uk

I do not think it stretching the point to emphasize again the apparent connections between mind control and ufology. Likewise the connections between ufo's, aliens and the occult -- and the aim of some of the latter groups in manipulating the Collective Unconscious towards eclipsed (for which read "occult") ends.

David .... Thanks for the links but they both come up as an error ... Could you please check them and post them again ?

I found this cartoon on a government disinformation site today and thought it was pretty funny.

Check out this link about the 1952 UFO flap and sightings over Washington DC ( including declassified documents ) which in my opinion provides some of the best evidence that UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin.

1952 UFO WAVE Largest Wave of all Time FACTUAL OBSERVATION DATA:

http://www.nicap.org/waves/1952fullrep.htm

[Dave Greer]

I found this cartoon on a government disinformation site today and thought it was pretty funny.

The Skeptics Dictionary is a government disinformation site? The guy who runs it isn't doing a very good job!

"George W. Bush continues to argue that thousands more soldiers and billions more dollars be committed to the war on Iraq, despite the fact that the majority of his generals, his senators and congressmen, and the American public do not think the U.S. should invest any more in that war."

Source

Check out this link about the 1952 UFO flap and sightings over Washington DC ( including declassified documents ) which in my opinion provides some of the best evidence that UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin.

1952 UFO WAVE Largest Wave of all Time FACTUAL OBSERVATION DATA:

http://www.nicap.org/waves/1952fullrep.htm

Lots of interesting eye-witness accounts, but I didn't read anything to convince me that they must be of ET origin. I'll remain open-minded as to the possible explanations.

I did find one that had similarities to my own UFO experience.

Nov. 4, 1952; Vineland, New Jersey (BBU 2206)

5:40 p.m. Housewife Mrs. Sprague saw 2 groups of 2-3 whirling discs of light fly toward the SE. 30 secs. (Berliner)

Whether any of these sightings are actual ET/UFOs is anyone's guess, but I think it's fairly safe to say that not all the sightings will have the same explanation.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Sleep paralysis? Me? I've had this myself more than a couple of times and didn't see a little grey guy, or girl, or even a succubus (damn it!). Wrong bus. Different train. Different platform even.

On alien abductions, I reccomend reading Martin Cannon's The Controllers. (written 1997), for other very feasible explanations. Martin made his bones in the mind control area, a very real and terrible subject. His is the most likely explanation for the subject, not-with-standing the usual human ability to expand out of all proportion to reality.

It is available here:

http://www.thestonecutters.net/xod/information/cannon.html

or here in the Google cache:

http://66.102.9.104/searchq=cache:MWewp54a...;cd=1&gl=uk

I do not think it stretching the point to emphasize again the apparent connections between mind control and ufology. Likewise the connections between ufo's, aliens and the occult -- and the aim of some of the latter groups in manipulating the Collective Unconscious towards eclipsed (for which read "occult") ends.

David .... Thanks for the links but they both come up as an error ... Could you please check them and post them again ?

I found this cartoon on a government disinformation site today and thought it was pretty funny.

Check out this link about the 1952 UFO flap and sightings over Washington DC ( including declassified documents ) which in my opinion provides some of the best evidence that UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin.

1952 UFO WAVE Largest Wave of all Time FACTUAL OBSERVATION DATA:

http://www.nicap.org/waves/1952fullrep.htm

Duane, on the link, google 'Martin Canon - The Cotrollers' and hit the Google cache button of the www.thestonecutters.net (the first link shown by Google). This works for me. Alternatively, there are other sites that have that essay and the Google search lists them.

David

[Guest David Guyatt]

Duane,

I've just read through the link you provided re Nicap, Keyhoe's outfit.

My perspective is that the sightings referenced were of unusual or exceptional aerial activity. That these sighting were ET however, is a leap of faith, not a step of logic or a demonstration of fact.

[William Kelly]

Four independent videos of fireball over Jerusalem dome rock.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/02/03/ufo-jerusalems-dome-rock-baffles-experts/

[Steve Knight]

I have seen this clip a few times now and also remain unconvinced. Ten years or so ago, there was a UFO film doing the rounds showing a small disc flying low and rapidly around a field and creating a crop circle in its wake. I took a copy of this to an old friend of mine who is an academy award winning animator --- and I have to say, a convinced UFOlogist. He looked at it, murmured and mumbled, went out to the shops and bought some bottles of wine (naturally) and b the time he got back ten minutes later he had the answer. He went to his mac desktop and fiddled with it for 20-30 minutes and then ran a clip he had created that mimicked the crop circle being made. There was no question in his mind (nor mine since) that he nailed the crop circle clip as a complete fake, as he was able to show how both had been identically fabricated. I contacted the magazine editor who had sent it to me for my opinion and tolf him what had hapened. Although he had the opportunity to publish the truth and show the fake film for what it was, he was not inclined to listen. He unwaveringly believed in UFO's and wanted to believe the film clip.

This particular film still does the rounds and is still widely believed.

Which is what I find exasperating about the whole thing. It's very difficult to separate the possible sightings from the obvious fakes, unless you're willing to review every single piece of evidence yourself - a mammoth task.

To cap it all, there are a number of Youtube's doing the rounds now which are CGI fakes. Very good fakes. It's increasingly possible for bored teenagers to produce good looking "evidence" while sat in Momma's basement, no doubt for their own amusement. It just adds to the flood of false sightings, disinformation and hoaxes that a genuine UFO investigator has to content with. And that means that the likelihod of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater increases.

I had a chat with a friend on this topic some years back. We came to the conclusion that if and when Mr E.T. does finally decide to land on the White House lawn, he'd better not do it on April 1st - no-one's wants to admit they fell for the joke of the century.

~~~

On another note, I'm interested in the Drake equation and the statistical likelihood of other civilisations existing. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that I'm prety much convinced, purely on a statistical basis, that other "intelligent" civilisations either do exist , or have existed in the past somewhere in the Universe. And very probably somewhere in our own galaxy. There's also the possibility that we may be the first. If others do exist in our galaxy, if they're not within 100 or so light years, they won't even know of our presence unless they stumbled across our planet by chance (I'm thinking of the earliest radio/TV broadcasts). Civilisations may have existed in the past, but been wiped out either through self-destruction, or some cataclysmic event they couldn't escape.

IMO the odds of a highly evolved, technological civilisation existing within easy reach of Earth, at the same time as life on Earth reaching the stage where they can begin to contemplate other life-forms, and even attempt rudimentary communication (SETI etc), are tending toward vanishingly small.

The wiki article on the Drake equation has estimates of N (the number of civilisations in the galaxy that we might hope to communicate with) being anywhere between 2 and 50,000. All depends on what numbers you use to plug into the equation - much of which is based on conjecture. I'd go for the lower end of the spectrum.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Dave, here. The odds of other intelligences in the universe, if not just the galaxy are just too great to ignore. Although some days, I do think we could be "First Ones" as our theories of the life cycle of stars could be just about right for that - 3rd generation star, being formed partially from materials (heavy metals) spewn across the galaxy by the older two generations of stars, giving this system just enough elements to form organics/lifeforms.

However, unless said extra-terrestrial intelligences have access to technologies hundreds if not thousands of years more advanced than ours, the chances of them visiting our remote, isolated, unremarkable sandpit of the galaxy are exceedingly remote. And then they visit only Joe Schmoe in West Bumxxxx, Idaho?? Mutilate a couple of cows? "Draw" patterns in crops?? Well, let's just say that stretches the boundaries of credulity for me. By a long chalk.

I'm more inclined to accept that such things reported as "UFO", and unidentified they may be, are most probably, the results of American industrial/military complex research. If in the last couple of years we've only just found out about the SR91-Aurora plane (Mach 7+, unmanned (mostly)), what have they got buried away so deeply we haven't a clue what it/they are capable of?

Sleep Paralysis? I think I had a couple cases of that in my pre-adolescence.

Twice, that I recall, many years apart, I "woke up" suddenly, with a feeling of heavy dread that someone (or something) was in my room, and I "knew" that if I moved, or made a sound, "it" would know I was there, and "get me".

I don't know if I could have moved, I never tried....but that feeling was present a good few minutes on both occasions, then just faded away. The latter occasion, I was 12, or 13, I asked my parents, and both denied having been in my room during the night.

For those few minutes, I was literally petrified, but nothing happened, and it was only the two occasions. Bizarre now, and I can laugh at it.

Nothing in the 25 years or so since.

[William Kelly]

In 1952 the Robertson Panel on UFOs met and reviewed the evidence on UFOs up to that point in time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_Panel

The first day, the panel viewed two amateur motion pictures of UFOs: the Mariana UFO Incident footage and 1952 Utah UFO Film (the latter was taken by Navy Chief Petty Officer Delbert C. Newhouse, who had extensive experience with aerial photography). Two Navy photograph and film analysts (Lieutenants R.S. Neasham and Harry Woo) then reported their conclusions: based on more than 1,000 man hours of detailed analysis, the two films depicted objects that were not any known aircraft, creature or weather phenomena. Air Force CaptainEdward J. Ruppelt then began a summary of Air Force efforts regarding UFO studies.

The second day, Ruppelt finished his presentation. Hynek then discussed theBattelle study, and the panel discussed with Air Force personnel the problems inherent in monitoring UFO sightings.

The third day, Air Force Major Dewey J. Fournet spoke to the panel. For over a year he had coordinated UFO affairs for the Pentagon. Fournett supported the extraterrestrial hypothesis as the best explanation for some puzzling UFO reports. For the remainder of the third day, the panel discussed their conclusions, and Robertson agreed to draft a preliminary report.

[William Kelly]

Ret. Col. Says UFOs Are Real, but Denies Government Cover-Up

Feb. 23, 2011

Retired Army Colonel Says UFOs Are Real, But Denies Government Cover-Up

Lee Speigel

Whether you believe or disbelieve the notion that UFOs are visitors from another planet, a former highly decorated military officer now comes forward with information that may infuriate those on both sides in the ongoing ET debate.

Retired Col. John Alexander, using his military savvy and high security clearance, spent a quarter of a century going through the top levels of the U.S. government and military searching for the group of people who were allegedly responsible for UFO information and the supposedly decades-old UFO cover-up.

His conclusions: Not only is there no such group and no cover-up, but disclosure about UFOs has already occurred on different official levels.

With so many people crying out these days for the U.S. government or the United Nations or even the Vatican to issue some sort of "we are not alone in the universe" disclosure statement, Alexander says the information has been dripping out all around us, over decades, with top officials casually making statements about UFOs.

He references this 1950 remark made by President Harry Truman: "I can assure you the flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on Earth."

"Disclosure has happened," Alexander added. "It starts with former presidents Truman, Carter, Reagan and [the Soviet Union's] Gorbachev. I've got stacks of generals, including Soviet generals, who've come out and said UFOs are real. My point is, how many times do senior officials need to come forward and say this is real?" Alexander told AOL News.

"At one time, before a lot of this information was released, I could see both the classified and the unclassified material. And I will tell you that 98 percent of the information was already in the public domain. The only things that weren't there was stuff like sources and method, which is protected, but the information about the incident was already out there."

Several months ago, a group of ex-military officers came forward to discuss their experiences when UFOs reportedly tampered with American nuclear missile sites. While Alexander acknowledges the events, he suggests why there was no intense intelligence investigation of these incidents.

"They absolutely happened, but when it's a one-time event, the attitude of investigators is: If it happens again, we'll get nervous, but since it didn't happen, put it aside.

"It's sort of an indictment that says, despite overwhelming evidence of interaction with strategic systems, nothing was done. And in my view, it is put, like a number of things, in the too-tough-to-handle bin."

The 74-year-old former Green Beret A-Team commander and developer of weapons at Los Alamos, N.M., is one of many speakers presenting his views at this week's International UFO Congress in Scottsdale, Ariz. He takes issue with both true believers (who assume any strange light in the sky is from another planet) and hard-nosed skeptics (who debunk any and all UFO reports and evidence to the contrary).

In his new book, "UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies and Realities" (Thomas Dunne Books), Alexander jumps right to the chase, saying, "UFOs are real! With no prevarication or qualification of terms, there are physical objects of unknown origin that do transit our universe. The evidence that supports those statements is simply overwhelming."

The evidence he speaks of includes the hard data of sensor technology that has frequently confirmed the reality of physical craft and the high quality of extremely reliable eyewitnesses who are "neither misreporting facts nor delusional."

After spending decades deeply embroiled behind the scenes, Alexander's assertion of the reality of UFOs still leaves the bigger question: What's the origin and purpose of these unexplained machines? (If, in fact, they are machines in the sense that we use that term.)

"The problem is, when you discuss UFOs, we are talking everything from little balls of light to hard craft a mile or more across, and everything in between. So what is it?" Alexander asked.

"I argue that, not only are we not solving the problems yet, we're not even asking the right questions, because we approach this wrong.

"I suspect that consciousness is a piece of the puzzle. We talk about UFOs, saying it's a technology that's 1,000 years in advance, but it really isn't. If you follow the history of these things, usually it is somewhat in advance, but not beyond our comprehension by any stretch of the imagination.

"The conundrum you get into is, yes, they are seen by sensors; however, at other times, they are not seen by sensors that should've seen them, and that's one I can't answer."

Alexander is a frequent guest on "Coast to Coast AM With George Noory," the popular overnight radio program. George Knapp, a multiple Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter and a weekend "Coast to Coast" host, praises Alexander's stance and suggests his book "will almost certainly infuriate zealots on both ends of the UFO spectrum."

In his review of Alexander's book, Knapp wrote: "Alexander's military mind instinctively gets to the heart of UFO cases and issues, makes quick work of charlatans and fools, and will likely inspire a new round of speculation about his presumed role as an MIB-type spook who spies on the UFO community."

In the early 1980s, Alexander created a behind-the-scenes government UFO study group called Advanced Theoretical Physics, or ATP, that consisted of members of the military, scientific and intelligence communities. With a top-secret security clearance, Alexander also had a tremendous amount of flexibility.

A key outcome of that study group was, contrary to conspiracy theorists' beliefs, that nobody in the government was responsible for UFO information.

He says that after his ATP group looked at many UFO cases, they came to some key conclusions:

• There was sufficient evidence supported by high-quality data to know that some UFO cases were real anomalies -- not just poor observation or misidentification.
• There were cases involving military weapon systems that posed a significant threat and should be investigated.
• Multisensory data supported observations of physical craft that performed intelligent maneuvers that were far beyond any known human capability.
• There were cases that involved trace physical evidence.
• Study of the UFO data could provide a potential for a leap in technology.

All that being said, Alexander also states that the infamous Roswell, N.M., UFO case of 1947 was not, in fact, a crashed alien spacecraft but a top-secret military project called Mogul.

"It was a real incident, no doubt about it. The Air Force played it abysmally, but I think there is a prosaic answer, and that was Project Mogul," Alexander explained. "It wasn't a weather balloon -- it was something really quite different. This was designed to listen to the Soviet Union.

"So when they say it was stretched out across the field, yup, exactly the way it was done. It was supersecret and it didn't involve UFOs."

After many years of deep research into UFOs, Alexander is convinced from both a personal and military point of view that it's a much more complex issue than the idea of Earth being visited by extraterrestrials. He proposes a concept called precognitive sentient phenomena.

"The point is there is something out there that is sentient. When I say precognitive, it knows -- whatever it is -- not only what it is going to present, but how we are going to respond to it.

"The public is interested but ambivalent in general. The public believes in UFOs, but it doesn't affect their daily lives," Alexander explained. "In the military, you learn very quickly it is not career-enhancing to bring up anomalies that you don't have good answers for.

"There's a euphemism in the military: If you bring me a problem, bring me a solution."

Edited February 27, 2011 by William Kelly

[Greg Burnham]