John Simkin Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The quote below is taken from Larry Hancock's excellent seminar on Billie Sol Estes. What do other members think about the reliability of Billie Sol Estes as a source on the JFK assassination? As a source, Billie Sol Estes is no better and no worse than any other criminal. Obviously, Clint Peoples was fully aware of that; few crimes get solved without one or more of the parties involved giving information. The use of “informants” is common practice in criminal investigations where the information provided is evaluated and corroborated (or not) independently of its source. Estes’ behavior in providing or offering to provide information is as follows:1. Estes provided no information at the time of Marshall’s death when any investigation of murder could easily have turned to Estes as a suspect. 2. Estes provided no information to the first grand jury in 1962 at a time when Estes had been convicted of no crimes, even fraud, but when an investigation of murder could again have turned to him as a suspect – he “took the Fifth”. 3. Estes did make a slip indicating that he was well aware that the Marshall death was indeed connected to the Estes scandals; he made it under stress and spontaneously in an effort to stop the Department of Agriculture’s investigation. 4. In his remarks to Clint Peoples before entering Federal prison, Estes made it clear that it was not a time for him to talk and that if he did he would be at risk from the individuals involved. 5. Estes did go on record after his release but only under a grant of immunity from prosecution. However, as we will see, he was unable or unwilling to provide the grand jury with documentation supporting his testimony. It should be noted that in his testimony he was also implicating himself as an accessory to murder. Any evidence produced would have been evidence offered against himself and subject to use in any investigation or prosecution outside the scope of the Marshall grand jury hearings. 6. Following his grand jury testimony, Estes (through his lawyer Douglas Caddy) approached the United States Justice Department with an offer to provide information for a criminal investigation. 7. In exchange, he wanted several things from Justice including “pardon for offenses for which he has been convicted and immunity from further prosecution among other things.” Among the items of note in the Justice reply to Estes are the conditions that Justice would make no specific promises to Estes outside that of confidentiality until such time that they had fully evaluated his sources, claims and documents. Justice did assign investigators to work with Estes but at that point, Estes declined to meet with them and any potential Justice Department initiative was aborted. We have no reason for Estes’ decision; however, it seems unlikely that Justice could have given Estes all that he asked for, especially given that some of the crimes in which he was going to implicate himself as an accessory would have been in a variety of local and state jurisdictions and outside of Federal jurisdiction. Larry Hancock's two-part seminar can be found here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2380 http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2379 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Mr Caddy probably knows but he can't say. I think Mr. Estes is at least as credible as the fellow who wrote "Blood, Money and Power." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Edited February 26, 2008 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 My take on Estes and his offer to confess: He knows where the "the bodies are buried" and was afraid to talk till certain people he feared were dead...BUT THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT HE OFFERED TO TELL! He already had been incarcerated for a long time. He just did not wish to return to prison for telling what he knows. Certain "family jewels" are still "sacred" to certain portions of the establishment. There was little to lose. The man had already served time, and has enough of a conscience to want to set the record straight. I would have given him immunity from future prosecution for "unknown crimes" just to learn about them, and prosecute others. This is a common practice among prosecutors seeking to solve unsolved crimes. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO Edited February 26, 2008 by William Plumlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Meredith Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 (edited) While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Edited February 27, 2008 by William Plumlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 (edited) While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Edited February 27, 2008 by William Plumlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Thanks for your reply. I do not remember your version of the bump on Roscoe's wrist. I got the sawmill version as I recall, from Roscoe's sister, long before I ever met you. Yes, we talked about the radio the DCM had, and the bulge under his jacket. I do not remember mentioning ANYTHING about south Texas and killings, and in fact know nothing about anything of that sort. I do not remember you mentioning your brother and family ties at any time, or if you did, it passed over my head. You DID call Novel's hairdo THE AGENCY FLIP, cause I didn't make it up. Jim and I commented on it. Thanks for your comments. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Thanks for your reply. I do not remember your version of the bump on Roscoe's wrist. I got the sawmill version as I recall, from Roscoe's sister, long before I ever met you. Yes, we talked about the radio the DCM had, and the bulge under his jacket. I do not remember mentioning ANYTHING about south Texas and killings, and in fact know nothing about anything of that sort. I do not remember you mentioning your brother and family ties at any time, or if you did, it passed over my head. You DID call Novel's hairdo THE AGENCY FLIP, cause I didn't make it up. Jim and I commented on it. Thanks for your comments. Jack Well Jack I guess we remember it two different ways. Perhaps Jim Marrs could be of help if he would as to the Roscoe White and the lump on his wrist. I remember it one way and you the other. Perhaps he will remember it another way. Thats life. Why were we there at your place in the first place? Do you remember? Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Thanks for your reply. I do not remember your version of the bump on Roscoe's wrist. I got the sawmill version as I recall, from Roscoe's sister, long before I ever met you. Yes, we talked about the radio the DCM had, and the bulge under his jacket. I do not remember mentioning ANYTHING about south Texas and killings, and in fact know nothing about anything of that sort. I do not remember you mentioning your brother and family ties at any time, or if you did, it passed over my head. You DID call Novel's hairdo THE AGENCY FLIP, cause I didn't make it up. Jim and I commented on it. Thanks for your comments. Jack Well Jack I guess we remember it two different ways. Perhaps Jim Marrs could be of help if he would as to the Roscoe White and the lump on his wrist. I remember it one way and you the other. Perhaps he will remember it another way. Thats life. Why were we there at your place in the first place? Do you remember? Take care Jim brought you by to see my slide show. That's why you were there. I had a slide on the lump on Roscoe's wrist, and related what the sister said about it. What was the source of your version? Feel free to question Jim. You can reach him at therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans. Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Thanks for your reply. I do not remember your version of the bump on Roscoe's wrist. I got the sawmill version as I recall, from Roscoe's sister, long before I ever met you. Yes, we talked about the radio the DCM had, and the bulge under his jacket. I do not remember mentioning ANYTHING about south Texas and killings, and in fact know nothing about anything of that sort. I do not remember you mentioning your brother and family ties at any time, or if you did, it passed over my head. You DID call Novel's hairdo THE AGENCY FLIP, cause I didn't make it up. Jim and I commented on it. Thanks for your comments. Jack Well Jack I guess we remember it two different ways. Perhaps Jim Marrs could be of help if he would as to the Roscoe White and the lump on his wrist. I remember it one way and you the other. Perhaps he will remember it another way. Thats life. Why were we there at your place in the first place? Do you remember? Take care Jim brought you by to see my slide show. That's why you were there. I had a slide on the lump on Roscoe's wrist, and related what the sister said about it. What was the source of your version? Feel free to question Jim. You can reach him at therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com Jack Jack this is a reply from Jim: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:59:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Marrs" <therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com> Add Mobile Alert Yahoo! DomainKeys has confirmed that this message was sent by yahoo.com. Learn more Subject: Re: Jack White To: "Robert Plumlee" <wplumlee2006@yahoo.com> Howdy Redbird, I am in a total rush as I just flew in from a Nevada convention and must fly back out for LA. But as I recall the story on Roscoe White, his "bump" was from injuring himself while training on a cannon (howitzer?) in the military and that it never healed properly. There is a distinctive lump on the wrist of the man in the famouse "Backyard" photos reportedly of Oswald. I also recall that you said the dark man in Dealey Plaza may have been the man you knew as "Gator," but I do not recall you saying it was him. I will be back next week. Let me know how your meeting with Billie Sol goes. I feel sure he knows more than he has yet publicly admitted. Best regards, Titmouse ----- Original Message ---- From: Robert Plumlee <wplumlee2006@yahoo.com> To: Jim Marrs <therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:51:18 AM Subject: Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Is Billie Sol Estes still alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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