Alan Healy Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 "...the slides and the trannies are at the 6th floor museum.... I suspect we are about to see an entirely different kind of tourist at the Sixth Form Museum. Will Dallas ever be the same again? Paul Get ready to cry Paul! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=la61MLhlpLo&...feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 Since I could barely read it, here is what this part says. Red box enlarged. Now what are the chances that Tina Towner had that 16 FPS LOCK BUTTON engaged while she was filming the limo. That's 16 not 24 chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Since I could barely read it, here is what this part says. Red box enlarged.Now what are the chances that Tina Towner had that 16 FPS LOCK BUTTON engaged while she was filming the limo. That's 16 not 24 chris Correct me if I am wrong, but experts can play a film at either of those two speeds and tell which one is the correct speed .... do you not agree and if not, then please explain why??? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 (edited) Guess nobody bothered to read the document, which says the new standardwas adopted OCTOBER 26, 1964. Now tell us again about the 18 fps standard on November 22 1963. Jack Jack, when I inquired about this, which is what people usually do before drawing their conclusions, I was left with the understanding that these camera manufacturers had made the changes to their running speeds by the late 1950's, but had not changed the data in their booklets, which wasn't recognized until 1964. So in other words ... the internal changes had been made before the assassination, but the already published data had not been corrected/updated so to be officially recognized until 1964. The FBI, Zavada, Groden, and others were obviously aware of this information ... while it seems that you and Healy were not. Bill Evolution of Standards to Higher Frame Rates: It has been acknowledged that Bell & Howell's and Eastman Kodak's engineering practice for cameras moved toward 18 fps in the late 50s, and that this velocity was not uncommon in USA practice. The committee action to change standards takes time. The published standard for camera velocity in use in 1963 (was) issued in 1954. Standards reflect practice and the evolutionary change to the higher frame rate of 18 frames per second was subsequently recognized in American National Standards that (was) issued in October of 1964 , for Camera and Projector Usage - PH22. 21 and PH22.22. Bell & Howell testing confirmed that the Zapruder camera operated at slightly faster than 18fps - meeting the requirements of the revised standard. Edited June 4, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Since I could barely read it, here is what this part says. Red box enlarged.Now what are the chances that Tina Towner had that 16 FPS LOCK BUTTON engaged while she was filming the limo. That's 16 not 24 chris Correct me if I am wrong, but experts can play a film at either of those two speeds and tell which one is the correct speed .... do you not agree and if not, then please explain why??? Bill I have an 8 mm projector which was never used for anything except showing the Z film. It runs at 16 fps. Whatever speed the film is shot at makes no difference to the projector... the sprocket holes are what it uses to project at a uniform 16 fps. If the film is shot at 16 fps, it shows the movie at ACTUAL REAL TIME SPEED. If the film is shot at 18 fps, it shows the movie at slightly SLOWER THAN REAL TIME. If the film is shot at 48 fps, it shows the movie at very SLOW MOTION SPEED. So any movie shot faster than the projector fps when projected shows the action AT A SLOWER SPEED...so 18 fps film is slightly SLOW MOTION. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I have an 8 mm projector which was never used for anything except showing the Z film.It runs at 16 fps. Whatever speed the film is shot at makes no difference to the projector... the sprocket holes are what it uses to project at a uniform 16 fps. If the film is shot at 16 fps, it shows the movie at ACTUAL REAL TIME SPEED. If the film is shot at 18 fps, it shows the movie at slightly SLOWER THAN REAL TIME. If the film is shot at 48 fps, it shows the movie at very SLOW MOTION SPEED. So any movie shot faster than the projector fps when projected shows the action AT A SLOWER SPEED...so 18 fps film is slightly SLOW MOTION. Jack Additional information to anyone who wishes to see it ... "Bill, In answer to your questions, the Towner camera was manufactured by Bell & Howell for Sears and sold at their stores under the Tower brand name. As documented in Roland Zavada's Report to the ARRB, and supported by documentation in the SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers) archives, U.S. camera and projector manufacturers started a changeover from the 16 frames-per-second standard to 18fps in 1959. By 1964, as confirmed by the SMPTE publication you posted, the industry conversion was essentially complete and official. The manufacturers changed production over time such that the same model produced early in the run might operate at 16fps and a later, otherwise identical, model would have been geared to run at the faster speed of 18fps. The determining factor, of course, is the observation of natural human movement in film from the camera in question. I personally supervised the film to tape transfer of the camera-original Towner film some years ago. Every time the Towner film appears in TV programs, the producers use The Sixth Floor Museum's transfer. Whether they show it as-is or at a different speed is beyond the Museum's control. Our initial transfer efforts started at 16fps and we quickly found that was too slow, for everyone seemed like they were moving in slow motion. Without doubt, 16fps was not that camera's normal speed. At 18fps - an increase of 12.5% - everything seemed to look much more normal, but it still seemed slow at the beginning of the reel. We settled on a transfer speed of 20fps throughout, during which most early scenes appeared normal; the final scenes, including the motorcade in Dealey Plaza, were preceded by family scenes in which it was hard to judge whether the movement was normal or not. Since joining the Museum in 1994, I have personally overseen the film to tape transfers of the 8mm camera original Bronson, Hughes, Bell, Towner and Dorman films, the first generation Nix and Zapruder films, and many others showing motorcade scenes prior to Dealey Plaza. Those amateur cameras ran at either 16fps or 18fps, +/- several percentage points. With the exception of the Towner film, all were transferred at either 16 or 18fps, whichever produced the most natural movement. The film technician who has done all of the transfers has been providing his service for a couple decades; he has literally viewed hundreds and hundreds of films and has a superb eye and "feel" for the appropriate speed. The difference between 16fps and 18fps may seem small, but it is glaringly noticeable when viewed on professional monitors The Towner film's true speed is likely closer to 18fps or slightly faster for most of the reel than to any other speed; it certainly was not operating at 16fps on November 22, 1963. Gary Mack" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 Since I could barely read it, here is what this part says. Red box enlarged.Now what are the chances that Tina Towner had that 16 FPS LOCK BUTTON engaged while she was filming the limo. That's 16 not 24 chris Correct me if I am wrong, but experts can play a film at either of those two speeds and tell which one is the correct speed .... do you not agree and if not, then please explain why??? Bill Subjective once again. The CAMERA has to be capable of performing the feat. Show documentation it shoots at 24 FPS? Where does the 8 FPS increase materialize from, in a camera that films at 16 FPS. Or, if one is to believe 18 FPS, a 6 FPS increase from it's overextended speed capability. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning? Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides. Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides? Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides? Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket. Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231? Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then. Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was---- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You Fool! It was "your" numbering system that he was looking at! Would this be referred to as "backpedalling" in order to get oneself out of a question which one should not have asked? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HMMMMMMMMMM! I for one, do not recall ever having seen any film in which "the car" can be observed coming around the turn! And I am most curious in regards to this "dual" numbering system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htmMr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning? Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides. Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides? Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides? Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket. Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231? Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then. Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was---- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You Fool! It was "your" numbering system that he was looking at! Would this be referred to as "backpedalling" in order to get oneself out of a question which one should not have asked? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HMMMMMMMMMM! I for one, do not recall ever having seen any film in which "the car" can be observed coming around the turn! And I am most curious in regards to this "dual" numbering system! Excellent observation! Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 "...the slides and the trannies are at the 6th floor museum.... I suspect we are about to see an entirely different kind of tourist at the Sixth Form Museum. Will Dallas ever be the same again? Paul Get ready to cry Paul! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=la61MLhlpLo&...feature=related No fool, Lahoma - CIA and the mob one and the same. Yup. By the way, Al, do you think Mack will go floral for the new visiters? Now there's a thought. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Since I could barely read it, here is what this part says. Red box enlarged.Now what are the chances that Tina Towner had that 16 FPS LOCK BUTTON engaged while she was filming the limo. That's 16 not 24 chris Correct me if I am wrong, but experts can play a film at either of those two speeds and tell which one is the correct speed .... do you not agree and if not, then please explain why??? Bill Subjective once again. The CAMERA has to be capable of performing the feat. Show documentation it shoots at 24 FPS? Where does the 8 FPS increase materialize from, in a camera that films at 16 FPS. Or, if one is to believe 18 FPS, a 6 FPS increase from it's overextended speed capability. chris Is 16fps the only speed Towners camera ran at? If not, here's a scenario... Towner shot the film (accidently) at 12fps...Towner 8mm film bumped to 16mm at 16fps, a 8mm 16fps dupe was created from the above 16mm, the action was still to slow hence frame elimination (to speed up the film) rework by a film lab.... in other words ANOTHER altered film (before the 6th floor got it) What's strange about this entire exchange is no one will affirm and/or certify, not to mention prove that the film GMack oversaw and worked with are in fact (this case the in-camera Towner) certified original.... Ya need to get the questions to Mack so he and he only will respond. "BM" Miller is pure distraction hasn't a clue about films, speeds, gamma, emulsions... Hell, even Craig (the best the none alterationists Lone Nuts have) gave up on Miller -- to dense, evidently.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htmMr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning? Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides. Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides? Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides? Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket. Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231? Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then. Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was---- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You Fool! It was "your" numbering system that he was looking at! Would this be referred to as "backpedalling" in order to get oneself out of a question which one should not have asked? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HMMMMMMMMMM! I for one, do not recall ever having seen any film in which "the car" can be observed coming around the turn! And I am most curious in regards to this "dual" numbering system! I'd missed this entirely, too. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Is 16fps the only speed Towners camera ran at? If not, here's a scenario... I would think that someone like yourself would want to know the answer to your question before offering up the 'what ifs'. What's strange about this entire exchange is no one will affirm and/or certify, not to mention prove that the film GMack oversaw and worked with are in fact (this case the in-camera Towner) certified original.... Hey ... why not make a request for YOU to examine the Towner film .... and then one for the Life Magazine slides at the same time. That way YOU will be able to confirm or deny for us. But first you have to actually care enough about what you are talking about to actually take action and do something. Ya need to get the questions to Mack so he and he only will respond. "BM" Miller is pure distraction hasn't a clue about films, speeds, gamma, emulsions... Hell, even Craig (the best the none alterationists Lone Nuts have) gave up on Miller -- to dense, evidently.... David, can you post any emails or questions that you have presented to Mack??? And let us not forget that it was 'I' who knew where the Life Magazine slides were. It was 'I' who knew that since the late 1950s that the cameras had been bumped up to 18 fps from 16 fps. So excuse me if I smile each time you post how I don't know anything and yet it is you who is always asking the questions. LOL!!!! Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 5, 2008 Author Share Posted June 5, 2008 David, The Towner camera has the same frame speed settings as the B/H 414. Animation=1 frame at a time Run Mode=16 FPS Slow Motion=48 FPS I did a couple of simple tests on my B/H 414. Very easy to incorporate. Camera on full wind. 1.Used a marking pen and drew a line on the film after the gate. 2.Used hand held stopwatch and filmed for 1, 3 and 5 seconds. 3.Marked same spot and counted frames run. At intervals of 1, 3 and 5 seconds, my FPS were 16+17. Tried Slow Motion mode twice. 48+50 FPS were the results. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) David,The Towner camera has the same frame speed settings as the B/H 414. Animation=1 frame at a time Run Mode=16 FPS Slow Motion=48 FPS I did a couple of simple tests on my B/H 414. Very easy to incorporate. Camera on full wind. 1.Used a marking pen and drew a line on the film after the gate. 2.Used hand held stopwatch and filmed for 1, 3 and 5 seconds. 3.Marked same spot and counted frames run. At intervals of 1, 3 and 5 seconds, my FPS were 16+17. Tried Slow Motion mode twice. 48+50 FPS were the results. chris Chris, while I applaud your technical ability ... I must question your investigative ability. For instance, it has been reported that over a period of time ... the internal mechanisms of these cameras were changed so to run at 18 fps. Would it not be important to know if the camera you have came before or after these changes had taken place ... its surely something that I would wish to know. So if you please ... can you post the serial number of your camera so it can be compared to Towner's. The reason for this is important because if the camera you have was made BEFORE the changes had taken place, then the running speed of your camera is a moot point. Thanks, Bill Edited June 5, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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