Towner vs. Zapruder

[David G. Healy]

David,

The Towner camera has the same frame speed settings as the B/H 414.

Animation=1 frame at a time

Run Mode=16 FPS

Slow Motion=48 FPS

I did a couple of simple tests on my B/H 414.

Very easy to incorporate.

Camera on full wind.

1.Used a marking pen and drew a line on the film after the gate.

2.Used hand held stopwatch and filmed for 1, 3 and 5 seconds.

3.Marked same spot and counted frames run.

At intervals of 1, 3 and 5 seconds, my FPS were 16+17.

Tried Slow Motion mode twice. 48+50 FPS were the results.

chris

Chris, while I applaud your technical ability ... I must question your investigative ability. For instance, it has been reported that over a period of time ... the internal mechanisms of these cameras were changed so to run at 18 fps. Would it not be important to know if the camera you have came before or after these changes had taken place ... its surely something that I would wish to know. So if you please ... can you post the serial number of your camera so it can be compared to Towner's. The reason for this is important because if the camera you have was made BEFORE the changes had taken place, then the running speed of your camera is a moot point.

Thanks,

Bill

you certainly have a tough time posting cites and/or proof, don't ya.? "it has been reported that over a period of time..." GREAT investigative skills -- LMFAO!

[Bill Miller]

you certainly have a tough time posting cites and/or proof, don't ya.? "it has been reported that over a period of time..." GREAT investigative skills -- LMFAO!

The 'cite' came days ago when you must have been doing this again

... it came by way of a quote. Knowing you ... you'll want to read the original text, so have at it Mr. Research.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

David,

The Towner camera has the same frame speed settings as the B/H 414.

Animation=1 frame at a time

Run Mode=16 FPS

Slow Motion=48 FPS

I did a couple of simple tests on my B/H 414.

Very easy to incorporate.

Camera on full wind.

1.Used a marking pen and drew a line on the film after the gate.

2.Used hand held stopwatch and filmed for 1, 3 and 5 seconds.

3.Marked same spot and counted frames run.

At intervals of 1, 3 and 5 seconds, my FPS were 16+17.

Tried Slow Motion mode twice. 48+50 FPS were the results.

chris

Chris, while I applaud your technical ability ... I must question your investigative ability. For instance, it has been reported that over a period of time ... the internal mechanisms of these cameras were changed so to run at 18 fps. Would it not be important to know if the camera you have came before or after these changes had taken place ... its surely something that I would wish to know. So if you please ... can you post the serial number of your camera so it can be compared to Towner's. The reason for this is important because if the camera you have was made BEFORE the changes had taken place, then the running speed of your camera is a moot point.

Thanks,

Bill

B/H 414: SERIAL# AJ75417

chris

[Bill Miller]

B/H 414: SERIAL# AJ75417

chris

Thanks, Chris ... now do you recall if Zapruder's serial number is higher or lower than yours???

Bill

[Chris Davidson]

B/H 414: SERIAL# AJ75417

chris

Thanks, Chris ... now do you recall if Zapruder's serial number is higher or lower than yours???

Bill

Bill,

I believe the Z camera serial# starts with AS, as his incorporated the power zoom feature.

My research tells me mine is the earlier model of the 414, as the power zoom models came out next.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

This will show that Towner's camera DID NOT shoot at 24 FPS.

A movie is made from individual frames.

If the limo was in constant forward motion while Towner was filming, every frame should show it.

I extracted all limo moving frames from the version provided in "Murder in Dealy Plaza".

All other frames removed were duplicate frames, which are generated for smoother viewing.

When you extract only the moving frames, there are approx 160 +/- 1 or 2.

The total movie plays for approx. 10 sec.

160 frames /10 sec = 16 FPS.

A picture of Quicktime, after having finished playing the movie, is provided.

I am also supplying the movie here:

http://76.89.67.73:6900/48542/Towner_160_Frames.mov

It is about 46 megs so be patient when downloading.

I highly recommend using a movie player that will allow you to arrow forward 1

frame at a time, so you can count and see the constant limo movement in each and every frame. FOR NON-BELIEVERS

I suggest looking at the movie properties as well.

I have it playing at 15 FPS, which once again is the closest I can get to 16 FPS.

The movie plays fine at 15 FPS.

Dale Myers based his syncs on a film shot at 24 FPS for 7 seconds. approx.

The actual Towner film is 16 FPS for 10 sec. approx.

Neither includes the 8 missing frames.

3 second difference and counting.

Once again, SAME DISTANCE TRAVELED, LESS TIME.

Sound Familiar?

chris

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

I believe the Z camera serial# starts with AS, as his incorporated the power zoom feature.

My research tells me mine is the earlier model of the 414, as the power zoom models came out next.

chris

Thanks for the info. So it seems that it is possible that your camera may have been made before the running speeds were changed.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

I highly recommend using a movie player that will allow you to arrow forward 1

frame at a time, so you can count and see the constant limo movement in each and every frame. FOR NON-BELIEVERS

I suggest looking at the movie properties as well.

I have it playing at 15 FPS, which once again is the closest I can get to 16 FPS.

The movie plays fine at 15 FPS.

Dale Myers based his syncs on a film shot at 24 FPS for 7 seconds. approx.

The actual Towner film is 16 FPS for 10 sec. approx.

Neither includes the 8 missing frames.

3 second difference and counting.

Once again, SAME DISTANCE TRAVELED, LESS TIME.

Sound Familiar?

chris

Information I requested from Gary Mack:

In reply to your questions, the camera original Towner film has one splice about 2/3 of the way through the limo turn onto Elm Street. Since the film was never examined by government investigators, the splice was first noticed by Robert Groden, who served as a consultant to the HSCA photo panel in 1978.

From what Tina and Jim Towner told me over the years, they had no knowledge of how or when that splice was made. What is known is that the film was developed for them by The Dallas Morning News within a few days of the assassination; available records suggest the film was never seen by investigators until the HSCA. The only other time the film was out of the Towner’s possession was when LIFE magazine borrowed it from them in 1967 for publication in their November issue about Kennedy assassination photographers.

[Bill Miller]

Here is some more information that I solicited from Gary Mack that may be of interest to the readers ...

"Bill,

The serial number of Zapruder's camera is AS13486, which means it was manufactured after the test camera Chris used; it is likely that Chris' older model ran at 16fps but the newer Zapruder camera, according to all tests by the FBI and Bell & Howell, had the new speed standard of 18fps.

Furthermore, I fail to comprehend the significance of using a Zapruder camera to determine the speed of a Towner camera! While they were manufactured by the same company, Bell & Howell, there's no documentation for when they were manufactured and which one(s) were the latest versions with the new 18 fps speed standard.

As for the doctors' press conference, there are no, and were no, films, videos or audio recordings of their remarks. I spent a lot of time on this issue, as have others, and here is what is known at this point in time:

Drs. Kemp Clark and Malcolm Perry spoke with the news media at around 2:15pm following JFK's death. They made comments saying they believed the throat wound was likely an entry wound. A contemporaneous transcript was made by a White House stenographer and the document is formally listed as the very first press conference of the Lyndon Johnson presidency, according to David Lifton's Best Evidence.

Although the Secret Service canvassed all local TV and radio stations and national networks in 1963/1964 looking for a sound recording on any format, none were located. There's a very good reason. It seems that none were made.

Although unavailable to the general public for several decades, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram photo collection is available for study at the University of Texas at Arlington. Nearly ten years ago I examined that collection of several thousand original negatives, prints and contact sheets. One of the packets contained negative strips from the Star-Telegram's photo coverage of the doctors' press conference.

What I found was astonishing. There were perhaps 20 to 25 or so images in all, but none were close-ups - they were medium or wide angle views of Clark, Perry, and White House staffers Wayne Hawkes and Chick Chandler, who typed the transcript. The photographer stood near the back of the small Parkland room and his pictures show no evidence of microphones, TV film cameras or video cameras.

In fact, there were very few reporters at all. I can remember seeing perhaps ten or twelve, all with notepads in hand or propped up on the classroom desk they were sitting on. No microphones were on the table behind which Clark and Perry made their comments, and no microphones were above their heads or pinned to their lapels.

About 2 seconds of WFAA-TV news film exists, but it does not have a soundtrack, since all but one or two of the station's film cameras were silent models. That footage shows Hawkes and Perry entering the room and Perry briefly speaking a few words.

Where were the TV cameras Perry told the Warren Commission about? Well, they may have been in the room against the back wall, but they certainly were not hooked up. How do I know? The original videotapes still exist. KTVT's remote truck arrived outside Parkland just minutes before the hearse left at 2:06pm, as shown in their earliest video tape. From interviews with the camera operator on the truck, it took them a long time to get their sole camera set up inside that hospital room. The first recording they made was a press briefing by Governor Connally's spokesperson, which was the fourth press conference that day (Mac Kilduff's announcement of JFK's death was the first).

The CBS and ABC affiliates each put a video camera in that room and both recorded the press conference that followed the one given by Perry and Clark (Connally's surgeon, Dr. Robert Shaw). The NBC affiliate wasn't there at all because their remote truck's engine blew on the way from Fort Worth.

No radio tapes of Clark and Perry exist, either. Original tapes still exist for KLIF, KRLD, WFAA, KBOX and WRR and none had the doctors' press conference.

Consequently, any claim that that there were recordings will need some strong proof, for there is just no evidence that confirms their existence.

Gary Mack"

[Paul Rigby]

Here is some more information that I solicited from Gary Mack that may be of interest to the readers ...

"Bill,

Drs. Kemp Clark and Malcolm Perry spoke with the news media at around 2:15pm following JFK's death... Gary Mack"

Oh no, not more demonstrably untrue claims from the Mack, that keen student of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram archive:

In the second section, p. 3, of the evening edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram of Saturday, 23 November, a similar or identical photograph of Perry and Clark to that found in Best Evidence is reproduced. The caption beneath it runs as follows:

“DOCTORS DESCRIBE DEATH: Drs. Kemp Clark, left, and Malcolm Perry, right, told newsmen at 1:45 pm Friday of what they and others at Parkland Hospital in Dallas did to try to save President Kennedy’s life. Man at center is White House aide.”

From another estimable thread on this here forum, the snappily entitled: "Why transcript 1327C is a fraud."

Paul

[David G. Healy]

I highly recommend using a movie player that will allow you to arrow forward 1

frame at a time, so you can count and see the constant limo movement in each and every frame. FOR NON-BELIEVERS

I suggest looking at the movie properties as well.

I have it playing at 15 FPS, which once again is the closest I can get to 16 FPS.

The movie plays fine at 15 FPS.

Dale Myers based his syncs on a film shot at 24 FPS for 7 seconds. approx.

The actual Towner film is 16 FPS for 10 sec. approx.

Neither includes the 8 missing frames.

3 second difference and counting.

Once again, SAME DISTANCE TRAVELED, LESS TIME.

Sound Familiar?

chris

Information I requested from Gary Mack:

In reply to your questions, the camera original Towner film has one splice about 2/3 of the way through the limo turn onto Elm Street. Since the film was never examined by government investigators, the splice was first noticed by Robert Groden, who served as a consultant to the HSCA photo panel in 1978.

From what Tina and Jim Towner told me over the years, they had no knowledge of how or when that splice was made. What is known is that the film was developed for them by The Dallas Morning News within a few days of the assassination; available records suggest the film was never seen by investigators until the HSCA. The only other time the film was out of the Towner’s possession was when LIFE magazine borrowed it from them in 1967 for publication in their November issue about Kennedy assassination photographers.

LIFE magazine borrowed the film in 1967? Amazing, and of course the film has a splice midway through the Elm Street turn.... fascinating! Where have we heard this story before....

And to think all those Lone Nutters-SBTers-LHO dunit that said the Towner film covers the entire Elm Street turn with no break.....

[Bernice Moore]

Bill: re.....

(Mac Kilduff's announcement of JFK's death was the first). Gary Mack...

So does this mean that Mac Kilduff, spoke only the once, in announcing the President's death....??

That afternoon.

And there were no audio, microphone recordings of what he stated....as there were no recording

devices set up as yet...??

Thanks

B.....

[Chris Davidson]

The serial number of Zapruder's camera is AS13486, which means it was manufactured after the test camera Chris used; it is likely that Chris' older model ran at 16fps but the newer Zapruder camera, according to all tests by the FBI and Bell & Howell, had the new speed standard of 18fps.

Furthermore, I fail to comprehend the significance of using a Zapruder camera to determine the speed of a Towner camera! While they were manufactured by the same company, Bell & Howell, there's no documentation for when they were manufactured and which one(s) were the latest versions with the new 18 fps speed standard.

Let's try a little logic here.

Towner's camera has the same frame speed settings as my B/H 414.

The official documentation for the Towner camera shows it shoots at 16 FPS.

I've supplied 2 examples that show it filmed at 16 FPS.

160 Total Frames - 10 Seconds of film = 16 FPS. No getting around that one.

Other's tell stories about what they believe is true.

Put that in front of a jury, and we know what the verdict is.

Case Closed.

chris

[Bill Miller]

LIFE magazine borrowed the film in 1967? Amazing, and of course the film has a splice midway through the Elm Street turn.... fascinating! Where have we heard this story before....

And to think all those Lone Nutters-SBTers-LHO dunit that said the Towner film covers the entire Elm Street turn with no break.....

Like Judge Judy says, 'Good looks fade, but dumb is forever!'. You were asked just how time you estimate is missing from the Towner film and where it occurred so to see if it was captured on another film. You were also asked just what do think occurred that someone would need to eliminate a few frames whereas the only images through that turn that are clear are of the people inside the limo while the background is blurry. Do you care to comment??? I feel this is an important point to raise because you like to promote paranoia as if every little thing must be a conspiracy, so please tell us just what could removing a quarter of a second from a film such as Towner's could have accomplished. I look forward to a sensible and logical answer from you ..... FOR A CHANGE!

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Here is some more information that I solicited from Gary Mack that may be of interest to the readers ...[/b]

"Bill,

Drs. Kemp Clark and Malcolm Perry spoke with the news media at around 2:15pm following JFK's death... Gary Mack"

Oh no, not more demonstrably untrue claims from the Mack, that keen student of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram archive:

In the second section, p. 3, of the evening edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram of Saturday, 23 November, a similar or identical photograph of Perry and Clark to that found in Best Evidence is reproduced. The caption beneath it runs as follows:

“DOCTORS DESCRIBE DEATH: Drs. Kemp Clark, left, and Malcolm Perry, right, told newsmen at 1:45 pm Friday of what they and others at Parkland Hospital in Dallas did to try to save President Kennedy’s life. Man at center is White House aide.”

From another estimable thread on this here forum, the snappily entitled: "Why transcript 1327C is a fraud."

Paul

Paul ... you just keep referencing these second hand reports if you want to stay consistently wrong. In Lifton's book 'Best Evidence' which I am sure you probably have ... one can see the watch on Perry's arm and it shows the time to be about 2:18 PM. At 2:30 PM was when the news people were saying that just a few minutes ago that Perry had made a statement. It appears that once again Mack was right and you were wrong. Any thoughts or apologies that you'd like to make to Mack???

Bill Miller