Towner vs. Zapruder

[Bill Miller]

Bill: re.....

(Mac Kilduff's announcement of JFK's death was the first). Gary Mack...

So does this mean that Mac Kilduff, spoke only the once, in announcing the President's death....??

That afternoon.

And there were no audio, microphone recordings of what he stated....as there were no recording

devices set up as yet...??

Thanks

B.....

Hello B ... allow me to share what information that I requested from Gary Mack ...

Bill,

The first Parkland Hospital press conference was held at 1:30pm wherein assistant press secretary Malcolm Kilduff made the official announcement of JFK’s death. Many reporters were present, but only one sound film is known to have been made (two others, by CBS affiliate KRLD and White House photographer Tom Atkins, are both silent films shot without sound). It was filmed by Bob Welch of WBAP-TV, the NBC affiliate in Dallas-Fort Worth. Bob and I were coworkers at that station (which is now KXAS-TV) from 1981-1993. Bob is still around, he’s a good friend, and he kindly donated his small JFK collection to the Museum.

I watched Bob’s film at NBC in New York in 1980 and later acquired a video tape copy. When I showed it to Bob the following year, he was amazed, for he hadn’t seen it since 1964 when NBC aired it at the beginning of an anniversary program. The original film, along with hours and hours of other reels, were taken by NBC News from the WBAP newsroom after that weekend. WBAP was left with copies of some of it….but not everything. Bob’s reel was one of those that went to New York, and that is what I watched.

Kilduff’s famous comment, “It was a simple matter, Tom, of a bullet right through the head” was the very last thing on the reel. Bob ran out of film at that point and left the hospital to get some more at the Dallas office of WBAP (he had covered JFK’s arrival at Love Field, then filmed some scenes outside Parkland before the press conference). Bob next went to the Dallas Police Department when it was learned they had a suspect in custody. That was Oswald.

If Bob had had more film, he likely would have stayed at Parkland and could have filmed some or all of the doctors’ press conference. But he wasn’t there at 2:15 when Clark and Perry faced the press. The first news accounts of what they said started appearing on local radio stations around 2:30pm. I’ve listened to the continuous tapes of WBAP, KRLD, WFAA and KLIF where those early accounts can be heard; the AP and UPI wire copy also carried reports of the doctors’ conference and many of them mentioned that the conference had concluded just a few minutes ago. Therefore, anyone suggesting the doctors’ press conference was held at an early time simply are not aware of the large documentation about when it took place.

One more thing about Kilduff. He visited the Museum in 1999 and I asked him about his gesture pointing to his right temple. He really bristled and said that everyone was taking that remark out of context. He wasn’t pointing to where the bullet went in, he explained, he was pointing to where the hole was. His only information about the shooting had come from Kennedy’s doctor, George Burkley, and the right temple is where the major damage was located.

Gary Mack

[Bill Miller]

Let's try a little logic here.

Towner's camera has the same frame speed settings as my B/H 414.

The official documentation for the Towner camera shows it shoots at 16 FPS.

I've supplied 2 examples that show it filmed at 16 FPS.

160 Total Frames - 10 Seconds of film = 16 FPS. No getting around that one.

Other's tell stories about what they believe is true.

Put that in front of a jury, and we know what the verdict is.

Case Closed.

chris

Case closed ... isn't that the name of a book that Posner wrote which led to Harold Weisberg to write 'Case Open'??? (smile~)

I inquired about something and this is what I learned ...

Hi Bill,

There are NO “frame speed settings” on either Zapruder’s or Towner’s cameras. One could only select Animation, Stop, Run, or Slow Motion. There are no buttons or settings to adjust the various speeds those settings offered.

The animation setting allowed one frame at a time each time the button was pushed. The Run setting operated the camera at the speed it was designed to run normally; the slow motion speed was a preset, much higher frame rate, usually triple the regular speed, but it could not be adjusted by the user.

The simple fact is that, according to the reel exposed in the Towner camera, it’s regular operating speed was 18fps or perhaps a little faster. It’s slow motion speed was probably 54fps, although it could have been geared to any speed set by the manufacturer. The operator could not change the slow motion speed.

And to claim that 160 Towner frames = 10 seconds of film is only accurate IF the camera were operating at 16fps. An actual test of the film showed the camera operated at 18fps or higher. 160 frames at 18fps = 8.9 seconds of film.

Gary

[Chris Davidson]

Let's see,

Now you're trying to lessen the time from 10 proven seconds to 8.9.

Well Myers has it at 7 seconds, so you're still not close.

His is supposed to be a frame to frame sync.

Better come up with some more reasons why you can't get to that elusive 24 FPS.

Still waiting for the physical proof.

chris

[Paul Rigby]

... at 2:15 when Clark and Perry faced the press. The first news accounts of what they said started appearing on local radio stations around 2:30pm.

Which doubtless explains why the AP reported shortly after 2 pm, CST, that ‘Dr. Perry said the entrance wound—which is the medical description—the entrance wound was in the front of the head’” (Fred T. Newcomb and Perry Adams*, “Did Someone Alter the Medical Evidence?,” Skeptic, Issue No. 9, September/October 1975, pages 24 ff:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_ev...perry_text.html )

Time travel, presumably.

As for the Secret Service's inability to find recordings of the Parkland press conference...

David Lifton. Best Evidence: Disguise and Deception in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy (NY: Signet, Nov 1992), p.72, footnote: “Although Secret Service Chief James Rowley claimed that he could locate no tape or transcript of the Parkland Memorial Hospital press conference, Marvin Garson, a researched assisting Mark Lane in preparing Rush to Judgment, was told Dallas television executive Joe Long, of radio station KLIF, that the original recordings had been seized by Secret Service agents.”

We are talking about the same Best Evidence, aren't we?

Paul

*In Murder From Within, Newcomb and Adams time the start of the Parkland press conference to 2 pm.

[Bill Miller]

Which doubtless explains why the AP reported shortly after 2 pm, CST, that ‘Dr. Perry said the entrance wound—which is the medical description—the entrance wound was in the front of the head’” (Fred T. Newcomb and Perry Adams*, “Did Someone Alter the Medical Evidence?,” Skeptic, Issue No. 9, September/October 1975, pages 24 ff:

Time travel, presumably.

Someone should make a list of all the wrong information that was going around in the initial reporting of the assassination. Is it your theory that Perry's watch is wrong and that these second hand stories are accurate ... just curious???

David Lifton. Best Evidence: Disguise and Deception in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy (NY: Signet, Nov 1992), p.72, footnote: “Although Secret Service Chief James Rowley claimed that he could locate no tape or transcript of the Parkland Memorial Hospital press conference, Marvin Garson, a researched assisting Mark Lane in preparing Rush to Judgment, was told Dallas television executive Joe Long, of radio station KLIF, that the original recordings had been seized by Secret Service agents.”

I cannot help but notice that Perry has no microphones in front of him, nor do the many photos of that conference show any movie cameras that had sound. Is this not important or do we just assume that what alleged recordings must have meant audio was a part of them???

[Paul Rigby]

Is it your theory that Perry's watch is wrong and that these second hand stories are accurate ... just curious???

Er, no. Perry's watch does appear to say 2:18pm - but that doesn't tell us when the press conference started! (This is a point covered in the course of "Is Transcript 1327C a fraud?" Never mind.)

I cannot help but notice that Perry has no microphones in front of him, nor do the many photos of that conference show any movie cameras that had sound.

There's no hoodwinking you, Bill, that's for sure.

Is this not important or do we just assume that what alleged recordings must have meant audio was a part of them???[/b]

Desperation. I blame Mack. He's leading you astray.

Paul

[Bill Miller]

Er, no. Perry's watch does appear to say 2:18pm - but that doesn't tell us when the press conference started! (This is a point covered in the course of "Is Transcript 1327C a fraud?" Never mind.)

So a little while ago you wanted to dispute the information as to the time of the press conference and now you wish to extend it back so both appear right ... what ever you say Paul.

Is this not important or do we just assume that what alleged recordings must have meant audio was a part of them???[/b]

Desperation. I blame Mack. He's leading you astray.

Paul

You are quoting from what someone wrote in a 1975 book, whereas Gary has read the actual 1963 wire copy in The Sixth Floor Museum’s collections! He has also listened to the air checks of KLIF and several other Dallas radio stations coverage that weekend. None of them had audio of the doctors’ press conference. True, the Secret Service did borrow tapes and films from local newsrooms, but what was broadcast that day was preserved on tape.

So it seems to me that the one leading people astray is the guy relying on rumor and second hand reports.

I refer you to post #61 wherein Gary detailed how the doctors’ press conference was reported on local media and national news wires beginning around 2:30pm.

Bill Miller

Edited June 6, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Paul Rigby]

Er, no. Perry's watch does appear to say 2:18pm - but that doesn't tell us when the press conference started! (This is a point covered in the course of "Is Transcript 1327C a fraud?" Never mind.)

So a little while ago you wanted to dispute the information as to the time of the press conference and now you wish to extend it back so both appear right ... what ever you say Paul.

Outrageous - I challenged both the start time and the content of transcript 1327C. Still do. I take it, though, that you've abandoned 2:18pm as the start time? Can't blame you. Hopeless position to defend.

You are quoting from what someone wrote in a 1975 book...

A very well researched book. In fact, one of the most copiously footnoted books ever written on the case.

...whereas Gary has read the actual 1963 wire copy in The Sixth Floor Museum’s collections!

You mean the same Mack who claimed to have a newspaper article from a New York paper describing the showing of the Muchmore film on WNEW-TV on November 26...? I see, must be true.

He has also listened to the air checks of KLIF and several other Dallas radio stations coverage that weekend. None of them had audio of the doctors’ press conference.

They wouldn't if the Secret Service nabbed them forty years ago.

I refer you to post #61 wherein Gary detailed how the doctors’ press conference was reported on local media and national news wires beginning around 2:30pm.

And I refer you both to a shrink. That way you get a discount, though not if there's multiple personalities involved.

Larry

[Bill Miller]

Er, no. Perry's watch does appear to say 2:18pm - but that doesn't tell us when the press conference started! (This is a point covered in the course of "Is Transcript 1327C a fraud?" Never mind.)

Outrageous - I challenged both the start time and the content of transcript 1327C. Still do. I take it, though, that you've abandoned 2:18pm as the start time? Can't blame you. Hopeless position to defend.

So you now have shifted to arguing 'starting time' ... to whom am I speaking with now ... Paul or Larry??? Below is what was posted and I see no reference to starting time ... just that someone referenced 1:45PM as when Perry was talking to the press. I also looked for when I posted the start time and I could not find it. Is this something one of your multiple personalities told you ... maybe Larry??? LOL!!!

QUOTE(Bill Miller @ Jun 6 2008, 05:53 AM) *

Here is some more information that I solicited from Gary Mack that may be of interest to the readers ...

"Bill,

Drs. Kemp Clark and Malcolm Perry spoke with the news media at around 2:15pm following JFK's death... Gary Mack"

Oh no, not more demonstrably untrue claims from the Mack, that keen student of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram archive:

QUOTE

In the second section, p. 3, of the evening edition of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram of Saturday, 23 November, a similar or identical photograph of Perry and Clark to that found in Best Evidence is reproduced. The caption beneath it runs as follows:

“DOCTORS DESCRIBE DEATH: Drs. Kemp Clark, left, and Malcolm Perry, right, told newsmen at 1:45 pm Friday of what they and others at Parkland Hospital in Dallas did to try to save President Kennedy’s life. Man at center is White House aide.”

From another estimable thread on this here forum, the snappily entitled: "Why transcript 1327C is a fraud."

Paul

A very well researched book. In fact, one of the most copiously footnoted books ever written on the case.

Did this well written book mention just how long Perry spoke to the press or how long the event lasted ??? If it did, then you can deduce when it may have started by applying it to the time on Perry's watch. For instance (while I do not see the importance of a starting time) if it is written that the press conference lasted 15 minutes ... we can at least apply that to the time on Perry's watch. Have you done this????

You mean the same Mack who claimed to have a newspaper article from a New York paper describing the showing of the Muchmore film on WNEW-TV on November 26...? I see, must be true.

Yes Paul ... an article out of many that is boxed away to be logged. I believe that Mack said he had personally read it. Then there is another article that I posted saying pretty much the same thing the Mack article was said to say ... interesting right through to the date of that article also as it showed the Muchmore film while mentioning the Zapruder film.

They wouldn't if the Secret Service nabbed them forty years ago.

Really, Paul? Have you bothered to see if Mack knows or has met the people in question so to know if they had audio when they shot their film or are you just preaching to the cult members???

I refer you to post #61 wherein Gary detailed how the doctors’ press conference was reported on local media and national news wires beginning around 2:30pm.

And I refer you both to a shrink. That way you get a discount, though not if there's multiple personalities involved.

Larry

There is that name 'Larry' ... I knew I had seen it somewhere. Did you slip up and use your real name?? Let me ask you this .... when have you ever signed your post 'Larry' before ... and to think that you want to talk about someone else having multiple personalities. (sigh)

Bill Miller

Edited June 7, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bernice Moore]

Paul ....all

FWTAW.......

B.....

[Paul Rigby]

Paul ....all

FWTAW.......

B.....

Great post, B. But I rather suspect it's the curator of the Sixth Form Museum who needs the pictorial refresher rather more than me!

Best,

Paul

[Paul Rigby]

Bill Miller: So you now have shifted to arguing 'starting time' ...

No, I started on that theme at the inception of the thread "Is Transcript 1327C a fraud?" Keep up.

... if it is written that the press conference lasted 15 minutes ... we can at least apply that to the time on Perry's watch. Have you done this????

Source? Or just another unsourced claim of the "trust me, it came from Gary Mack" variety? And, yes, 2:18pm on Perry's watch does NOT preclude a start time of 1:45pm. 33 minutes for a press conference on the death of the President? Hardly inconceivable, is it?

Paul

[David G. Healy]

Paul ....all

FWTAW.......

B.....

Great post, B. But I rather suspect it's the curator of the Sixth Form Museum who needs the pictorial refresher rather more than me!

Best,

Paul

microphones, tripods, cameras everywhere, bet there's even audio cables between them.....

Edited June 7, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Jack White]

In the first photo, the 16mm camera has a mike jutting out to the front.

Jack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Paul ....all

FWTAW.......

B.....

Great post, B. But I rather suspect it's the curator of the Sixth Form Museum who needs the pictorial refresher rather more than me!

Best,

Paul

microphones, tripods, cameras everywhere, bet there's even audio cables between them.....

Yeah but!

Although I have no proof, you probably altered those photo's to support your asinine theory that newspaper and TV crews would have the foresight and forethought to actually record sound.

Or it was done merely to demonstrate someone's "hoof in mouth" disease!