Towner vs. Zapruder

[Bill Miller]

Source? Or just another unsourced claim of the "trust me, it came from Gary Mack" variety? And, yes, 2:18pm on Perry's watch does NOT preclude a start time of 1:45pm. 33 minutes for a press conference on the death of the President? Hardly inconceivable, is it?

Paul

Paul, I have asked you a few times now if you even know how long the press conference lasted ... do you know???

Here is some more information that I requested from Gary Mack ... maybe you will find something of benefit from it.

Bill Miller

Hi Bill,

Interesting pictures and yes, I can identify every one of them. The Museum's collection of films and video tapes include every Parkland press conference except for the Clark-Perry one which, I am convinced, was never recorded. It is a fact that once JFK's death was announced, most reporters left the hospital for Love Field, Dealey Plaza and the Dallas Police station. According to the photographs, few reporters stayed at Parkland for the Clark-Perry appearance.

The large photo, a Dallas Times Herald picture in the Museum's collection of that newspaper's 700+ original JFK assassination negatives, shows Mac Kilduff announcing JFK's death. The photographer holding the microphone is WBAP's Bob Welch; I don't know the name of the older gentleman to the right holding a larger microphone. Two other smaller photos also show Kilduff at about the same time; Kilduff made just one appearance at Parkland that day. While numerous reporters were present, only one sound recording has ever surfaced and that's the one filmed by Bob Welch. (The Kilduff announcement appearing in TMWKK is a composite of Welch's film and that of White House photograph Tom Atkins' silent color footage.)

The picture of three men standing in front of a blackboard (which is actually green) shows Clark, Hawkes and Perry, left to right, at 2:18, according to Perry's watch. It is one of the 20+ pictures in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram Collection at the University of Texas at Arlington Library - the same institution where Jack White's Fort Worth photo collection is housed. The picture also appears in Lifton's Best Evidence. NBC News, for example, quoting from wire copy at 2:32, reported highlights of Perry and Clark's comments.

The TV news film still frame from behind a line of photographers shows the scene of Nellie Connally's remarks minutes before Oswald was shot. The other two stills show Oswald's chief surgeon, Dr. Tom Shires. The Connally and Shires Sunday appearances are, of course, irrelevant to understanding who said what and when on Friday.

Gary

[David G. Healy]

Source? Or just another unsourced claim of the "trust me, it came from Gary Mack" variety? And, yes, 2:18pm on Perry's watch does NOT preclude a start time of 1:45pm. 33 minutes for a press conference on the death of the President? Hardly inconceivable, is it?

Paul

Paul, I have asked you a few times now if you even know how long the press conference lasted ... do you know???

Here is some more information that I requested from Gary Mack ... maybe you will find something of benefit from it.

Bill Miller

Hi Bill,

Interesting pictures and yes, I can identify every one of them. The Museum's collection of films and video tapes include every Parkland press conference except for the Clark-Perry one which, I am convinced, was never recorded. It is a fact that once JFK's death was announced, most reporters left the hospital for Love Field, Dealey Plaza and the Dallas Police station. According to the photographs, few reporters stayed at Parkland for the Clark-Perry appearance.

The large photo, a Dallas Times Herald picture in the Museum's collection of that newspaper's 700+ original JFK assassination negatives, shows Mac Kilduff announcing JFK's death. The photographer holding the microphone is WBAP's Bob Welch; I don't know the name of the older gentleman to the right holding a larger microphone. Two other smaller photos also show Kilduff at about the same time; Kilduff made just one appearance at Parkland that day. While numerous reporters were present, only one sound recording has ever surfaced and that's the one filmed by Bob Welch. (The Kilduff announcement appearing in TMWKK is a composite of Welch's film and that of White House photograph Tom Atkins' silent color footage.)

The picture of three men standing in front of a blackboard (which is actually green) shows Clark, Hawkes and Perry, left to right, at 2:18, according to Perry's watch. It is one of the 20+ pictures in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram Collection at the University of Texas at Arlington Library - the same institution where Jack White's Fort Worth photo collection is housed. The picture also appears in Lifton's Best Evidence. NBC News, for example, quoting from wire copy at 2:32, reported highlights of Perry and Clark's comments.

The TV news film still frame from behind a line of photographers shows the scene of Nellie Connally's remarks minutes before Oswald was shot. The other two stills show Oswald's chief surgeon, Dr. Tom Shires. The Connally and Shires Sunday appearances are, of course, irrelevant to understanding who said what and when on Friday.

Gary

While you sitting there in Gary's office, why not have him respond to the availability of the LIFE 4x5 trannies of the Z-film

[Bill Miller]

While you sitting there in Gary's office, why not have him respond to the availability of the LIFE 4x5 trannies of the Z-film

I always wonder when I read one of your responses that maybe this time you will have said something intelligent ... but not this time I see. Today is Saturday and I doubt that Mack is working today. I am in Harrison Hot Springs, BC. So your response starts out like the writing of someone who is delusional and uninformed.

The answer to your question pertaining to the Life Magazine slides has already been posted several times now. The Museum doesn't have the slides ... they belong to Life Magazine. What you keep implying is as silly as me asking you to produce the materials in Jack White's office ... that line of thinking is so nutty that it hardly deserves a response. It's already apparent that all this time that you have trolled this forum so to promote paranoia about how the assassination images are being kept from experienced experts ... you have made this claim without first ever trying to get access to those images yourself. A sane person would detail their qualifications and explain their concerns to Life Magazine to see if they would allow what ever test to be done that you see fit. I feel that my asking Gary Mack for permission to see something that belongs to Life Magazine would make me look like a complete idiot ... that is something you should do yourself IMO.

Bill Miller

Edited June 7, 2008 by Bill Miller

[David G. Healy]

While you sitting there in Gary's office, why not have him respond to the availability of the LIFE 4x5 trannies of the Z-film

I always wonder when I read one of your responses that maybe this time you will have said something intelligent ... but not this time I see. Today is Saturday and I doubt that Mack is working today. I am in Harrison Hot Springs, BC. So your response starts out like the writing of someone who is delusional and uninformed.

The answer to your question pertaining to the Life Magazine slides has already been posted several times now. The Museum doesn't have the slides ... they belong to Life Magazine. What you keep implying is as silly as me asking you to produce the materials in Jack White's office ... that line of thinking is so nutty that it hardly deserves a response. It's already apparent that all this time that you have trolled this forum so to promote paranoia about how the assassination images are being kept from experienced experts ... you have made this claim without first ever trying to get access to those images yourself. A sane person would detail their qualifications and explain their concerns to Life Magazine to see if they would allow what ever test to be done that you see fit. I feel that my asking Gary Mack for permission to see something that belongs to Life Magazine would make me look like a complete idiot ... that is something you should do yourself IMO.

Bill Miller

First son, you have to read, READ the post..... 35mm slides I'm NOT looking for... the 4x5 trannies is, got it, son? When you speak of sane folk first YOUhave to understand the English language.... now hurry on back to Gary, it's the 4x5 t-r-a-n-n-i-e-s, got it Sherlock? Get his comment, eh? (is it any wonder why I withdrew my recommendation to Adobe for you to work as a general all round flunky Photoshop gofer.

A simple minded xxxxx working at the 6th Floor Museum now thats gotta be embarassing for the museums executive board....

Edited June 8, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Bill Miller]

First son, you have to read, READ the post..... 35mm slides I'm NOT looking for... the 4x5 trannies is, got it, son? When you speak of sane folk first YOU[/b[have to understand the English language.... now hurry on back to Gary, it's the 4x5 t-r-a-n-n-i-e-s, got it Sherlock? Get his comment, eh? (is it any wonder why I withdrew my recommendation to Adobe for you to work as a general all round flunky Photoshop gofer.

A simple minded xxxxx working at the 6th Floor Museum now thats gotta be embarassing for the museums executive board....

A couple of questions come to mind any way you wish to cut it ... Who have you contacted about getting either the slides or 'trannies' that you now seek and what was their response? And oh yeh ... now you wish to separate the slides from the trannies which you didn't in the statement below ... David Healy: "Grow up son..... the slides and the trannies are at the 6th floor museum.... Been there for years! You didn't know that?"

The next question is what explanation could you give for wanting these materials when you are constantly telling people that only the originals would do? David Healy: "Till you deliver the original camera masters and those versed in same can analyze them, ......................."

Bill Miller

Edited June 8, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

microphones, tripods, cameras everywhere, bet there's even audio cables between them.....

Ralax, David ... everything is cool!!! Duncan has enhanced and gone over the photos with a fine toothed comb and has found no evidence of rain-sensors at the conference, which is what is said to be the listening device of choice in Texas. (grin)

[David G. Healy]

First son, you have to read, READ the post..... 35mm slides I'm NOT looking for... the 4x5 trannies is, got it, son? When you speak of sane folk first YOU[/b[have to understand the English language.... now hurry on back to Gary, it's the 4x5 t-r-a-n-n-i-e-s, got it Sherlock? Get his comment, eh? (is it any wonder why I withdrew my recommendation to Adobe for you to work as a general all round flunky Photoshop gofer.

A simple minded xxxxx working at the 6th Floor Museum now thats gotta be embarassing for the museums executive board....

A couple of questions come to mind any way you wish to cut it ... Who have you contacted about getting either the slides or 'trannies' that you now seek and what was their response? And oh yeh ... now you wish to separate the slides from the trannies which you didn't in the statement below ... David Healy: "Grow up son..... the slides and the trannies are at the 6th floor museum.... Been there for years! You didn't know that?"

The next question is what explanation could you give for wanting these materials when you are constantly telling people that only the originals would do? David Healy: "Till you deliver the original camera masters and those versed in same can analyze them, ......................."

Bill Miller

son, just deliver the message (tsk-tsk I realize its been delivered, can't seem to sign in here lately without noticing GaryM and/or you are perusing these threads, evidently persistence has paid off).... so son, if you can't follow the bouncing ball, what can I tell you?

Oh, I know what I can tell you... James Gordon was spotted here, remember him? The old Scottish math teacher... perhaps he can assist you in understanding John Costella's portion of HOAX -- its abundantly clear you haven't a clue, then again you weren't part of the target audience...

[Bill Miller]

son, just deliver the message (tsk-tsk I realize its been delivered, can't seem to sign in here lately without noticing GaryM and/or you are perusing these threads, evidently persistence has paid off).... so son, if you can't follow the bouncing ball, what can I tell you?

Oh, I know what I can tell you... James Gordon was spotted here, remember him? The old Scottish math teacher... perhaps he can assist you in understanding John Costella's portion of HOAX -- its abundantly clear you haven't a clue, then again you weren't part of the target audience...

I see that you are not capable of seeing the fool you are making of yourself, but others will see it. You have complained for years that the original films need to be examined and yet you haven't done a single thing to get the job done. Instead you request that others do your talking for you ... now just how serious do you think that Life Magazine will take you if that is all you care to do. I cannot for the life of me see how any rational thinking human being can take you serious when you take such a ridiculous approach.

And what about Costella .... are you referring to his writing about this big window of time that he gave for Moorman's photo to be altered while not knowing that it was filmed for TV not 35 minutes after the shooting. His nonsense has already been answered to by others, thus it is a waste of time even discussing it at this point.

By the way, Costella's work obviously didn't impress you because you remarked years later that you have seen NO PROOF of alteration. So if it6 didn't convince you, then why ask someone else to waste their time with it ... your approach makes no more sense than not contacting Life Magazine to examine the materials that you claim to be qualified to do, but won't initiate. Is it little wonder why these claims never got off the ground!

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Ralax??????????????

Put that bottle down again Bill LOL!!!

"The man Bowers could no longer see was still the other man who wore a plaid jacket"

Duncan

Duncan, if you would set aside even 10% of the time consulting experts that you waste making a mockery out of this forum, then maybe much of the ridiculous things you post could be avoided. (Just a suggestion)

Bill

[David G. Healy]

son, just deliver the message (tsk-tsk I realize its been delivered, can't seem to sign in here lately without noticing GaryM and/or you are perusing these threads, evidently persistence has paid off).... so son, if you can't follow the bouncing ball, what can I tell you?

Oh, I know what I can tell you... James Gordon was spotted here, remember him? The old Scottish math teacher... perhaps he can assist you in understanding John Costella's portion of HOAX -- its abundantly clear you haven't a clue, then again you weren't part of the target audience...

[...]

Is it little wonder why these claims never got off the ground!

Bill Miller

Son, you've been responding regularly to those claims since (at least) 2002. Gary Mack responding to DP altered photos and films controversy long before that.... So, the "claims" have been off the ground for a long, LONG time -- you're not beginning to suffer that dreaded old age disease, are ya.... I see the James Gordon quip slipped right by ya too, eh?

In keeping with the thread: just think, what having 1st generation dupe of those 4x5 LIFE trannies (of the Zapruder film frames) and all that would cure. All that speculation about altered films and whatnot.... poof, gone. Little forensic testing of a few alleged in-camera original Z-frames... Put you right out of a job..... Your not scared of that are ya?

Furthermore, not one Lone Nutter (including you) has been able to touch John Costella's presentation. You ever see the DVD of his presentation? Fascinating material.

p.s. you know, I understand Gary Mack's position, in fact I've told him so... he has a job to do, acquiring films and photos for the museum, being a PR buffer for the 6th floor not to mention representing the good city of Dallas Texas in the media. You on the other hand are a mystery out of no-where.... any comment, son?

[Chris Davidson]

Let's see,

Now you're trying to lessen the time from 10 proven seconds to 8.9.

Well Myers has it at 7 seconds, so you're still not close.

His is supposed to be a frame to frame sync.

Better come up with some more reasons why you can't get to that elusive 24 FPS.

Still waiting for the physical proof.

chris

It's truly amazing that anyone could sync a multiple of films with all the slicing/dicing and reframing occurring.

Then again, I'm sure that's why it all occured.

For instance, looks like the reframing/timing adjustments for Dorman started back near Main/Houston.

Forgot to remove that extra sprocket hole.

Suggestion: Place your cursor on the real sprocket holes from my film.

chris

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Chris;

Try this.

Line "A"--------"A" would represent the front location of the Limo according to your overlay.

Line "B"--------"B" represents the approximate line of sight for Towner to the corner of the TSDB.

Your drawing appears to have Towner slightly further around the corner, and this may be so.

However, he could not be that far from this position as the farther back around the corner on Houston St. he would be, then he would have filmed more of the North Wall of the TSDB.

As is, he was looking almost straight into the doors and the alignment of the wall.

With this drawn in, it is approximately 61 feet from the "Towner to TSDB Corner" to the alignment of the front of the car in the position shown down Elm St.

From that distance, one would have to subtract the distance from the front bumper of the Limo, back to JFK's position, in order to have the approximate JFK to JFK distance.

since I have not actually plotted Towner's position and thereafter drawn in his line-of-sight to the final position, I do not know for certain as to exactly how accurately your overlay positions the Limo at the 3+06 stationing position.

Need anything else that I can help with, just yell.

You are beginning to confirm much of what I had long suspected, but was unable to verify for myself.

Keep it up, you have my support and respect.

Tom

P.S. Forgot: Stationing 2+45 for the Towner to TSDB corner.

Stationing 3+06 for the front bumper in the final alignment.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Chris Davidson]

With this drawn in, it is approximately 61 feet from the "Towner to TSDB Corner" to the alignment of the front of the car in the position shown down Elm St.

From that distance, one would have to subtract the distance from the front bumper of the Limo, back to JFK's position, in order to have the approximate JFK to JFK distance.

Tom,

It looks like you are right on target with your last post.

I took it, along with the Myer's piece and composited them with a Google overhead. Sorry about the size for now.

Your line of sight for Towner is dead on with Myer's which is the corner of the TSBD.

Will work on the real distance traveled tomorrow.

thanks

chris

P.S.

This latest section of the plat you have provided, when sized to fit the full sized Drommer plat, still has the existing alignment problems that I pointed out

previously.

[Bill Miller]

Son, you've been responding regularly to those claims since (at least) 2002. Gary Mack responding to DP altered photos and films controversy long before that.... So, the "claims" have been off the ground for a long, LONG time -- you're not beginning to suffer that dreaded old age disease, are ya.... I see the James Gordon quip slipped right by ya too, eh?

Why not respond to them ... even you have responded by saying that YOU have seen no proof of alteration. The fact is that the errors made over the alteration claims doesn't even call for seeing the originals, but rather in noticing mistakes in the claim itself. For instance, if someone wishes to promote this large window of time that Moorman's photo could be altered, then they should first know when the photo was filmed for a national audience. This was a mistake that Costella had made. How dumb can one be to write telling the reader that there was a window of time whereas the Moorman photo could have been edited so to place Zapruder and Sitzman on the pedestal when the same photo filmed for TV not 35 minutes after the shooting does show two people on the pedestal. Another example came when Jack claimed Hill and Moorman were standing in the street, while never noticing that Altgens #6, which Jack calls genuine in the Hoax book, shows Hill and Moorman's photos coming from the grass. The alteration claims seem to fall under their own weight long before an examination of any originals is needed to take place.

In keeping with the thread: just think, what having 1st generation dupe of those 4x5 LIFE trannies (of the Zapruder film frames) and all that would cure. All that speculation about altered films and whatnot.... poof, gone. Little forensic testing of a few alleged in-camera original Z-frames... Put you right out of a job..... Your not scared of that are ya?

Great David! Just a while back you said that you were the man to inspect these materials, so once again just what have you done to request that you be allowed to examine them and what was the response you got??? I mean, you say that I have been responding to this stuff since 2002, so that means you have had six years to prepare a detailed request to examine these items, so let us see just how serious you were ... lets see your request and the reply you were given. If you were jacked around, then I will do all I can to expose it, but the same applies to you if you have merely been blowing off your mouth and have done nothing!

Furthermore, not one Lone Nutter (including you) has been able to touch John Costella's presentation. You ever see the DVD of his presentation? Fascinating material.

Yet after seeing the presentation for yourself ... you posted to this forum that you have 'seen no proof of alteration ... something you'd said for years'. So tell me what was it about Costells's presentation that didn't convince you to where you'd say that you have seen no proof of alteration???

Edited June 9, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

It's truly amazing that anyone could sync a multiple of films with all the slicing/dicing and reframing occurring.

Then again, I'm sure that's why it all occured.

For instance, looks like the reframing/timing adjustments for Dorman started back near Main/Houston.

Forgot to remove that extra sprocket hole.

Suggestion: Place your cursor on the real sprocket holes from my film.

chris

Chris,

Have you bothered to find out if what you are calling an 'extra sprocket hole' is nothing more than a damaged sprocket hole? It appears that part of the film is missing in that location, thus it has expanded the white area. Can you test the sprocket hole spacing with another Dorman frame?

Bill