QUESTION: How difficult was it to get out of Dallas on 22 NOV?

[Denis Pointing]

Presumably there was some kind of lock down after the assassination. Does anyone know the extent? Were the airports closed, were there roadblocks? Does anyone know if it was THEORETICALLY possible for Oswald to have escaped/left via Redbird airport. Thanks. Denis.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Denis Pointing

[Jack White]

Presumably there was some kind of lock down after the assassination. Does anyone know the extent? Were the airports closed, were there roadblocks? Does anyone know if it was THEORETICALLY possible for Oswald to have escaped/left via Redbird airport. Thanks. Denis.

Nothing. Zero. Nada.

The police were only interested in people who sneaked in a theater without a ticket.

Jack

[Greg Parker]

Presumably there was some kind of lock down after the assassination. Does anyone know the extent? Were the airports closed, were there roadblocks? Does anyone know if it was THEORETICALLY possible for Oswald to have escaped/left via Redbird airport. Thanks. Denis.

Nothing. Zero. Nada.

The police were only interested in people who sneaked in a theater without a ticket.

Jack

There were road blocks set up in at least 3 or 4 locations and the US-Mexican border was shut down by the Mexican authorities. There was also a request by CIA for a cordon to be placed around the Cuban Embassy in MC. Don't know if that request was granted.

[William Kelly]

The accused assassin escaped.

BK

[Duke Lane]

The accused assassin escaped.

Gosh, for a lawyer, I'd have thought you'd do better than that!

The accused assassin got shot and killed. As for anyone not accused ...?

[Duke Lane]

Presumably there was some kind of lock down after the assassination. Does anyone know the extent? Were the airports closed, were there roadblocks? Does anyone know if it was THEORETICALLY possible for Oswald to have escaped/left via Redbird airport. Thanks. Denis.

If there was anything done locally, there doesn't seem to be a record of it.

There was a roadblock on Stemmons Freeway for over 30 minutes, but that was initially to give the motorcade free passage between downtown and the Trade Mart. Traffic was held - since they were already stopped - for fairly obvious reasons.

A small handful of patrol officers claimed to have set up roadblocks in their various patrol districts around town, but given the geographic size of them, the number of intersections, and the paucity of available officers to assist, it's highly unlikely that they could have been effective in any case. I say "claimed" because there is significant doubt about at least one of those districts.

There appear to be few if any records about phone calls made from DPD HQ. There were certainly no calls to officers to go out to Redbird or any other airports, bus terminals or other means of vehicular egress to ensure that the facilities were shut down. It does not mean that they weren't called on the phone and been requested to do so, but none of the DPD apologists (Jim Bowles, Jim Leavelle, Jerry Hill ...) have ever suggested that they were contacted and asked to shut down.

So, THEORETICALLY, was it possible for Oswald - or anyone else - to escape via any of the airports (with the possible exception of Love Field, which was to at least some extent secured as a result of the Presidential visit), bus terminals, or by car? The answer is an unqualified "yes" THEORETICALLY, and a qualified "yes" otherwise.

Oswald, of course, had no means to get to Redbird (now Executive) Airport, and seven miles is a long way to walk! (NOTE: Evidence suggests that Oswald could have done it in about 30 minutes!)

Edit: This is the same deal, 7.4 miles, avoiding highways (if Google Maps is any different). They estimate 19 minutes by car this way, 15 using the highway.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Duke Lane

[Lee Forman]

Presumably there was some kind of lock down after the assassination. Does anyone know the extent? Were the airports closed, were there roadblocks? Does anyone know if it was THEORETICALLY possible for Oswald to have escaped/left via Redbird airport. Thanks. Denis.

Hi Denis.

I assume you are familiar with the account of the plane which left redbird, returned and left again. In addition to redbird there were several other small airports for small craft at that time which were operational - I think this is detailed on another thread - I found quite a bit of material online once. There is also the Trinity River question. Add to that the geography of Texas, which is flat. You could take off from an airplane from just about anywhere - including certain ranches, which also figures in to the whole landscape.

Tosh should be able to add more here I would think.

- lee

[Greg Parker]

A small handful of patrol officers claimed to have set up roadblocks in their various patrol districts around town, but given the geographic size of them, the number of intersections, and the paucity of available officers to assist, it's highly unlikely that they could have been effective in any case. I say "claimed" because there is significant doubt about at least one of those districts.

Duke,

Patrolman Parker set up road blocks in districts 56 & 58.

Patrolman Wallace set up road blocks in districts 57 & 59.

Patrolman Everitt set up road blocks Pleasant Groves & Samuels.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=486133

Did all or any of those officers fail to carry out their orders?

[Duke Lane]

... Did all or any of those officers fail to carry out their orders?

"Orders?" What orders? Sent by carrier pigeon, maybe? They were assigned to regular patrol duties, i.e., no special assignment; they did "roadblock duty" of their own volitions.

Suffice it to say that there is no way that one patrolman or even two can effectively "set up roadblocks" in areas as large as one patrol district, much less two ... or that setting up a single roadblock in any area would have been sufficient to "stop all traffic."

To give you an idea of just how ineffective we're talking, here's a modern map of patrol districts 56 and 58, according to Putnam Exhibit 1. Tell me which intersection that you, as a lone patrol officer (or even with a partner), would set up your roadblocks - plural. There are only, oh, a dozen or so places you might choose ....

Patrol areas outlined in red, 56 at lower left, 58 at upper right.

(Map by Mapsco®)

Thanks for the page link, it's handy to have. The officers' reports that parts of this info are gleaned from are also in the published volumes, tho' offhand I don't recall the exhibit name or number. I know what they said they did after the fact, but not all of them told the whole truth. I won't and can't dispute that they did, in fact, set up "roadblocks," I'm merely saying that they could have and did do other things.

The bottom line: this thread is about how difficult it was or wasn't to get out of Dallas. The answer is that it would have been easy for anyone to have gotten around these roadblocks even within their own districts. They were so far from downtown that someone on the lam wouldn't even have had to go through their districts! (If you need me to post an overview map and mark out both Dallas and these two districts, I can do that.)

You can see how little of I-30 - the Fort Worth Toll Road back then - was even in district 56, and then two whole districts north of it to "block." What are the odds of spotting anyone worth stopping, much less actually stopping them?

Edited June 4, 2008 by Duke Lane

[William Kelly]

The accused assassin escaped.

Gosh, for a lawyer, I'd have thought you'd do better than that!

The accused assassin got shot and killed. As for anyone not accused ...?

The real assassins escaped, that's for sure.

The accused assassin escaped the TSBD and center city, quite a feat itself, and whether the assassin of a patsy he should have been home free. If he was the assassin, he should have had a plan, but it was quite apparent he didn't have one, or it didn't go right. If a patsy, they were going to close in on him no matter what.

In cop terms, there's a manhunt for the killer(s) and a dragnet with road blocks (and other tactics) are established, but in this case, I don't think they had a positive ID out for a suspect before they got Oswald. They didn't have time to set up a dragent for suspects they had yet to identify.

You have to depend, in the immdediate aftermath of such a crime, on regular policeman doing their jobs, which led to the arrests of Son of Sam in NYC and McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing, is what tripped up mass murder Ted Bundy, and may have led to the death of Tippit.

Oswald (and his cohorts) escaped after the Walker shooting, ostensibly on a bus after ditching the rifle. From Dealey Plaza he walks, takes a getaway bus, grabs a cab and then hoofs it, though not very far.

What time was Oswald apprehended? 1:30? From the start at the crack of the first shot at 12:30, that's pretty quick.

And Golly Gee Duke, I'm not a lawyer. I thought we knew each other better than that. I must come off like a lawyer when I have to set Gratz stright.

BK

Edited June 4, 2008 by William Kelly

[Tim Gratz]

BK, you can attempt to set me stright whenever you want but I suggest you first learn to spel.

[Antti Hynonen]

Tim Gratz Posted Today, 07:34 AM

BK, you can attempt to set me stright whenever you want but I suggest you first learn to spel.

Hmmm....

Sir, I think if you wish to point out someone's poor spelling or typos, you might want to make sure you type your comment correctly yourself.

"BK, you can attempt to set me straight whenever you want but I suggest you first learn to spell.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Tim Gratz]

Antti, obviously when I spelled spell with only one "l" my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek.

However, that raises an interesting question: why in the world should there be two "ls" at the end of words like spell, hell, well, etc.? I read an article the other day about people who want to reform the English language, to make it more phonetic. Why for instance should words contain consonants that are not pronounced? Why not write "buffet" as bufa? Or perhaps bufaa to indicate the "a" is long?

If double "ls" and silent consonants were removed, there would be less ink consumed in printing documents and over the long run less paper used as well.

[Greg Parker]

... Did all or any of those officers fail to carry out their orders?

"Orders?" What orders?

If I call them "assignments", will it ease your befuddlement?

Sent by carrier pigeon, maybe?

I have no idea how the "assignments" were given, Duke. I'd start the search for that answer by trying to eliminate radio first. Carrier pigeons would come somewhere between smoke signals and two cans connected by a really long piece of string.

They were assigned to regular patrol duties, i.e., no special assignment;

Correct. Then after the assassination, they were REassigned to set up road blocks.

they did "roadblock duty" of their own volitions.

That may have applied to Parker, but not to Wallace or Everitt.

Suffice it to say that there is no way that one patrolman or even two can effectively "set up roadblocks" in areas as large as one patrol district, much less two ... or that setting up a single roadblock in any area would have been sufficient to "stop all traffic."

I never said I thought they were effective. The original questions by Dennis included "were there roadblocks?" I correctly and fully answered that question.

To give you an idea of just how ineffective we're talking, here's a modern map of patrol districts 56 and 58, according to Putnam Exhibit 1. Tell me which intersection that you, as a lone patrol officer (or even with a partner), would set up your roadblocks - plural. There are only, oh, a dozen or so places you might choose ....

Thanks for the page link, it's handy to have. The officers' reports that parts of this info are gleaned from are also in the published volumes, tho' offhand I don't recall the exhibit name or number. I know what they said they did after the fact, but not all of them told the whole truth. I won't and can't dispute that they did, in fact, set up "roadblocks," I'm merely saying that they could have and did do other things.

Here's another link that may be handy:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=146053

The bottom line: this thread is about how difficult it was or wasn't to get out of Dallas. The answer is that it would have been easy for anyone to have gotten around these roadblocks even within their own districts. They were so far from downtown that someone on the lam wouldn't even have had to go through their districts! (If you need me to post an overview map and mark out both Dallas and these two districts, I can do that.)

I may have taken Dennis' post the wrong way. I thought he was asking how much effort and emphasis the police put into stopping the killer/s escaping the city.

You can see how little of I-30 - the Fort Worth Toll Road back then - was even in district 56, and then two whole districts north of it to "block." What are the odds of spotting anyone worth stopping, much less actually stopping them?

Edited June 4, 2008 by Greg Parker

[Jack White]

Tim Gratz Posted Today, 07:34 AM

BK, you can attempt to set me stright whenever you want but I suggest you first learn to spel.

Hmmm....

Sir, I think if you wish to point out someone's poor spelling or typos, you might want to make sure you type your comment correctly yourself.

"BK, you can attempt to set me straight whenever you want but I suggest you first learn to spell.

I guess in Finland such humor as intentional mis-spelling is not understood.

Jack