The Gods that Failed

[Guest Stephen Turner]

The market works just fine.

I actually agree with Craig here. the Market is doing EXACTLY what its supposed to do.

If you mean creating fertile ground for a bit of what Naomi Klein termed "Shock Therapy", then I agree with you.

There is an interesting story on pages 20-21 of the book. Angelo Mozilo, the chief executive officer of Countrywide, America’s biggest mortgage lender, took home $120 million in 2006. Even so, he complained about the government “over-regulating the industry”. On 10th August 2007, Mozilo had changed his tune when he called for government help because demand for its home loans had evaporated. He argued that the monetary authorities should step in with unlimited quantities of financial assistance.

Exactly what does Mozilo's pay have to do with this John? Class envy?

This is far more to do with rampant hypocracy than Marxism. When the going is good for the majority of ordinary citizens, most couldn't give a fig how much our corporate elite pay each other. its their absolute refusal to share in the bad times that turns the stomach. Today, for example, British gas announced a staggering 35% rise in the price of retail gas to the customer, this is the second massive hike since January, and means that gas prices have risen by 50% in most cases, since last Christmas, all other retailers are expected to announce similar rises over the next week, At the very same time the company unvailed a 1 billion pound (nearly 2 billion dollars) half yearly profit.

[Craig Lamson]

The market works just fine.

I actually agree with Craig here. the Market is doing EXACTLY what its supposed to do.

If you mean creating fertile ground for a bit of what Naomi Klein termed "Shock Therapy", then I agree with you.

There is an interesting story on pages 20-21 of the book. Angelo Mozilo, the chief executive officer of Countrywide, America’s biggest mortgage lender, took home $120 million in 2006. Even so, he complained about the government “over-regulating the industry”. On 10th August 2007, Mozilo had changed his tune when he called for government help because demand for its home loans had evaporated. He argued that the monetary authorities should step in with unlimited quantities of financial assistance.

Exactly what does Mozilo's pay have to do with this John? Class envy?

This is far more to do with rampant hypocracy than Marxism. When the going is good for the majority of ordinary citizens, most couldn't give a fig how much our corporate elite pay each other. its their absolute refusal to share in the bad times that turns the stomach. Today, for example, British gas announced a staggering 35% rise in the price of retail gas to the customer, this is the second massive hike since January, and means that gas prices have risen by 50% in most cases, since last Christmas, all other retailers are expected to announce similar rises over the next week, At the very same time the company unvailed a 1 billion pound (nearly 2 billion dollars) half yearly profit.

Let me see if I get your point. A company exists to make a profit for its shareholders. The cost of the product they sell increases in price at the wholesale level and as such they increase the price at retail. They strive to maintain their profit. Whats the problem in this picture? None that I can see, but then again I 'm a businessman and I understand profit and loss.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

The market works just fine.

I actually agree with Craig here. the Market is doing EXACTLY what its supposed to do.

If you mean creating fertile ground for a bit of what Naomi Klein termed "Shock Therapy", then I agree with you.

There is an interesting story on pages 20-21 of the book. Angelo Mozilo, the chief executive officer of Countrywide, America’s biggest mortgage lender, took home $120 million in 2006. Even so, he complained about the government “over-regulating the industry”. On 10th August 2007, Mozilo had changed his tune when he called for government help because demand for its home loans had evaporated. He argued that the monetary authorities should step in with unlimited quantities of financial assistance.

Exactly what does Mozilo's pay have to do with this John? Class envy?

This is far more to do with rampant hypocracy than Marxism. When the going is good for the majority of ordinary citizens, most couldn't give a fig how much our corporate elite pay each other. its their absolute refusal to share in the bad times that turns the stomach. Today, for example, British gas announced a staggering 35% rise in the price of retail gas to the customer, this is the second massive hike since January, and means that gas prices have risen by 50% in most cases, since last Christmas, all other retailers are expected to announce similar rises over the next week, At the very same time the company unvailed a 1 billion pound (nearly 2 billion dollars) half yearly profit.

Let me see if I get your point. A company exists to make a profit for its shareholders. The cost of the product they sell increases in price at the wholesale level and as such they increase the price at retail. They strive to maintain their profit. Whats the problem in this picture? None that I can see, but then again I 'm a businessman and I understand profit and loss.

Just let see if I'm understanding what your saying, its fine for a company to increase prices by over 50% to its ccustomers, customers who have little choise in using the product (gas) and then post profits of two billion dollars in a six month period? I suspect your answer will be yes, thats not just fine, but what they owe their shareholders, and to hell with the millions of Brits, many old and on a pension, who will be pushed into deciding whether to heat their homes this Winter, or eat.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Stephen Turner

[Craig Lamson]

The market works just fine.

I actually agree with Craig here. the Market is doing EXACTLY what its supposed to do.

If you mean creating fertile ground for a bit of what Naomi Klein termed "Shock Therapy", then I agree with you.

There is an interesting story on pages 20-21 of the book. Angelo Mozilo, the chief executive officer of Countrywide, America’s biggest mortgage lender, took home $120 million in 2006. Even so, he complained about the government “over-regulating the industry”. On 10th August 2007, Mozilo had changed his tune when he called for government help because demand for its home loans had evaporated. He argued that the monetary authorities should step in with unlimited quantities of financial assistance.

Exactly what does Mozilo's pay have to do with this John? Class envy?

This is far more to do with rampant hypocracy than Marxism. When the going is good for the majority of ordinary citizens, most couldn't give a fig how much our corporate elite pay each other. its their absolute refusal to share in the bad times that turns the stomach. Today, for example, British gas announced a staggering 35% rise in the price of retail gas to the customer, this is the second massive hike since January, and means that gas prices have risen by 50% in most cases, since last Christmas, all other retailers are expected to announce similar rises over the next week, At the very same time the company unvailed a 1 billion pound (nearly 2 billion dollars) half yearly profit.

Let me see if I get your point. A company exists to make a profit for its shareholders. The cost of the product they sell increases in price at the wholesale level and as such they increase the price at retail. They strive to maintain their profit. Whats the problem in this picture? None that I can see, but then again I 'm a businessman and I understand profit and loss.

Just let see if I'm understanding what your saying, its fine for a company to increase prices by over 50% to its ccustomers, customers who have little choise in using the product (gas) and then post profits of two billion dollars in a six month period? I suspect your answer will be yes, thats not just fine, but what they owe their shareholders, and to hell with the millions of Brits, many old and on a pension, who will be pushed into deciding whether to heat their homes this Winter, or eat.

Yes, its fine, thats what companies do. How may of those "old brits" are shareholders? What right do you or anyone else have to say they are not entitled to the profits from their investments? If the price of a product increases at wholesale, what right do you are anyone else have to tell someone that they can't raise their prices to cover the price increase and to keep thier profit margin?

I don't know how it works for you but here the utilities are regulated by the state. If they want a price increase it must be approved.

And f you don't like the price of gas, switch to electric.....or wood or geo thermal or solar or wind.....

[Guest Stephen Turner]

The market works just fine.

I actually agree with Craig here. the Market is doing EXACTLY what its supposed to do.

If you mean creating fertile ground for a bit of what Naomi Klein termed "Shock Therapy", then I agree with you.

There is an interesting story on pages 20-21 of the book. Angelo Mozilo, the chief executive officer of Countrywide, America’s biggest mortgage lender, took home $120 million in 2006. Even so, he complained about the government “over-regulating the industry”. On 10th August 2007, Mozilo had changed his tune when he called for government help because demand for its home loans had evaporated. He argued that the monetary authorities should step in with unlimited quantities of financial assistance.

Exactly what does Mozilo's pay have to do with this John? Class envy?

This is far more to do with rampant hypocracy than Marxism. When the going is good for the majority of ordinary citizens, most couldn't give a fig how much our corporate elite pay each other. its their absolute refusal to share in the bad times that turns the stomach. Today, for example, British gas announced a staggering 35% rise in the price of retail gas to the customer, this is the second massive hike since January, and means that gas prices have risen by 50% in most cases, since last Christmas, all other retailers are expected to announce similar rises over the next week, At the very same time the company unvailed a 1 billion pound (nearly 2 billion dollars) half yearly profit.

Let me see if I get your point. A company exists to make a profit for its shareholders. The cost of the product they sell increases in price at the wholesale level and as such they increase the price at retail. They strive to maintain their profit. Whats the problem in this picture? None that I can see, but then again I 'm a businessman and I understand profit and loss.

Just let see if I'm understanding what your saying, its fine for a company to increase prices by over 50% to its ccustomers, customers who have little choise in using the product (gas) and then post profits of two billion dollars in a six month period? I suspect your answer will be yes, thats not just fine, but what they owe their shareholders, and to hell with the millions of Brits, many old and on a pension, who will be pushed into deciding whether to heat their homes this Winter, or eat.

Yes, its fine, thats what companies do. How may of those "old brits" are shareholders? What right do you or anyone else have to say they are not entitled to the profits from their investments? If the price of a product increases at wholesale, what right do you are anyone else have to tell someone that they can't raise their prices to cover the price increase and to keep thier profit margin?

I don't know how it works for you but here the utilities are regulated by the state. If they want a price increase it must be approved.

And f you don't like the price of gas, switch to electric.....or wood or geo thermal or solar or wind.....

Craig, we are so diametrically opposed on matters economic, and social that their is little point in debating, the fact that you put a few shareholders "rights" over the rights of millions to be able to heat their home and eat is, and I fully understand, you ideological belief. But really, switch to electric, its more expensive to heat your home using electric than gas...Wood, geo thermal, solar, wind, how the hell would someone on a limited wage, or pension be able to utilise these facilities, it would end up costing much more than Gas Or electric, but I suspect you know this, and its your way of saying "Let them eat cake" Have the final word if you like, arguing with you is bad for my blood pressure.

[Craig Lamson]

The market works just fine.

I actually agree with Craig here. the Market is doing EXACTLY what its supposed to do.

If you mean creating fertile ground for a bit of what Naomi Klein termed "Shock Therapy", then I agree with you.

There is an interesting story on pages 20-21 of the book. Angelo Mozilo, the chief executive officer of Countrywide, America’s biggest mortgage lender, took home $120 million in 2006. Even so, he complained about the government “over-regulating the industry”. On 10th August 2007, Mozilo had changed his tune when he called for government help because demand for its home loans had evaporated. He argued that the monetary authorities should step in with unlimited quantities of financial assistance.

Exactly what does Mozilo's pay have to do with this John? Class envy?

This is far more to do with rampant hypocracy than Marxism. When the going is good for the majority of ordinary citizens, most couldn't give a fig how much our corporate elite pay each other. its their absolute refusal to share in the bad times that turns the stomach. Today, for example, British gas announced a staggering 35% rise in the price of retail gas to the customer, this is the second massive hike since January, and means that gas prices have risen by 50% in most cases, since last Christmas, all other retailers are expected to announce similar rises over the next week, At the very same time the company unvailed a 1 billion pound (nearly 2 billion dollars) half yearly profit.

Let me see if I get your point. A company exists to make a profit for its shareholders. The cost of the product they sell increases in price at the wholesale level and as such they increase the price at retail. They strive to maintain their profit. Whats the problem in this picture? None that I can see, but then again I 'm a businessman and I understand profit and loss.

Just let see if I'm understanding what your saying, its fine for a company to increase prices by over 50% to its ccustomers, customers who have little choise in using the product (gas) and then post profits of two billion dollars in a six month period? I suspect your answer will be yes, thats not just fine, but what they owe their shareholders, and to hell with the millions of Brits, many old and on a pension, who will be pushed into deciding whether to heat their homes this Winter, or eat.

Yes, its fine, thats what companies do. How may of those "old brits" are shareholders? What right do you or anyone else have to say they are not entitled to the profits from their investments? If the price of a product increases at wholesale, what right do you are anyone else have to tell someone that they can't raise their prices to cover the price increase and to keep thier profit margin?

I don't know how it works for you but here the utilities are regulated by the state. If they want a price increase it must be approved.

And f you don't like the price of gas, switch to electric.....or wood or geo thermal or solar or wind.....

Craig, we are so diametrically opposed on matters economic, and social that their is little point in debating, the fact that you put a few shareholders "rights" over the rights of millions to be able to heat their home and eat is, and I fully understand, you ideological belief. But really, switch to electric, its more expensive to heat your home using electric than gas...Wood, geo thermal, solar, wind, how the hell would someone on a limited wage, or pension be able to utilise these facilities, it would end up costing much more than Gas Or electric, but I suspect you know this, and its your way of saying "Let them eat cake" Have the final word if you like, arguing with you is bad for my blood pressure.

WOW! Now people have a "RIGHT" to heat thier homes? How silly of me. I thought they paid someone to produce, store and then deliver natural gas. Shame on me for thinking that profit on this process was evil and heartless. If you want wealth distrabution, fine, do it at everyones expense, not just those you THINK are making more profit than YOU deem proper. Even better, get together with a group of like minded people and pool your funds to give to those who you think deserve it....

[Len Colby]

I don't know how it works for you but here the utilities are regulated by the state. If they want a price increase it must be approved.

Steve Craig does have a point here. Gas prices should be regulated but perhaps after decades of Tony Thatchers, Margret Blairs as PM's that was done away with.

[Len Colby]

WOW! Now people have a "RIGHT" to heat thier homes? How silly of me. I thought they paid someone to produce, store and then deliver natural gas. Shame on me for thinking that profit on this process was evil and heartless. If you want wealth distrabution, fine, do it at everyones expense, not just those you THINK are making more profit than YOU deem proper. Even better, get together with a group of like minded people and pool your funds to give to those who you think deserve it....

If a private (or even public) company has a monopoly on an essential service they should not charge abusive prices, only the most extreme free market proponents would disagree with this. Steve never said the companies should not be allowed any profit only complained about abusive profit.

IMO if a company offers a nonessential service or product and doesn't have a monopoly (or colude with its competitors) it can charge what ever it wants.

[Craig Lamson]

WOW! Now people have a "RIGHT" to heat thier homes? How silly of me. I thought they paid someone to produce, store and then deliver natural gas. Shame on me for thinking that profit on this process was evil and heartless. If you want wealth distrabution, fine, do it at everyones expense, not just those you THINK are making more profit than YOU deem proper. Even better, get together with a group of like minded people and pool your funds to give to those who you think deserve it....

If a private (or even public) company has a monopoly on an essential service they should not charge abusive prices, only the most extreme free market proponents would disagree with this. Steve never said the companies should not be allowed any profit only complained about abusive profit.

IMO if a company offers a nonessential service or product and doesn't have a monopoly (or colude with its competitors) it can charge what ever it wants.

What qualifies as abusive profit and who gets to decide? Like I said I can't speak for the Brits, but here if the gas company wants a price increase they must apply to the state for permission. On the other hand, I can purchase my natural gas from a number of suppliers and I can purchase it on a futures contrat and lock in my price. I can also choose not to purchase gas and use any number of other energy sources instead.

[Craig Lamson]

WOW! Now people have a "RIGHT" to heat thier homes? How silly of me. I thought they paid someone to produce, store and then deliver natural gas. Shame on me for thinking that profit on this process was evil and heartless. If you want wealth distrabution, fine, do it at everyones expense, not just those you THINK are making more profit than YOU deem proper. Even better, get together with a group of like minded people and pool your funds to give to those who you think deserve it....

If a private (or even public) company has a monopoly on an essential service they should not charge abusive prices, only the most extreme free market proponents would disagree with this. Steve never said the companies should not be allowed any profit only complained about abusive profit.

IMO if a company offers a nonessential service or product and doesn't have a monopoly (or colude with its competitors) it can charge what ever it wants.

There is a lot of talk about excess or abusive profits. For the second quarter EXXON posted $11.68 billion in profits on sales of $138 billion or less that 9% profit. Is that excessive or abusive profit? It should also be noted that EXXON also paid $32.36 BILLION in taxes for the same period. In other words they paid almost 3 dollars in tax for every dollar in profits. Is that abusive or excessive TAXATION?

[Len Colby]

WOW! Now people have a "RIGHT" to heat thier homes? How silly of me. I thought they paid someone to produce, store and then deliver natural gas. Shame on me for thinking that profit on this process was evil and heartless. If you want wealth distrabution, fine, do it at everyones expense, not just those you THINK are making more profit than YOU deem proper. Even better, get together with a group of like minded people and pool your funds to give to those who you think deserve it....

If a private (or even public) company has a monopoly on an essential service they should not charge abusive prices, only the most extreme free market proponents would disagree with this. Steve never said the companies should not be allowed any profit only complained about abusive profit.

IMO if a company offers a nonessential service or product and doesn't have a monopoly (or colude with its competitors) it can charge what ever it wants.

What qualifies as abusive profit and who gets to decide?

The most reasonable solution would be for a state agency to decide, factors would be the utility's profit margin, the hardship that increases would cause its customers.

I can also choose not to purchase gas and use any number of other energy sources instead.

And what would be the cost of converting? This might not be a viable option for many consumers.

[Len Colby]

There is a lot of talk about excess or abusive profits. For the second quarter EXXON posted $11.68 billion in profits on sales of $138 billion or less that 9% profit. Is that excessive or abusive profit? It should also be noted that EXXON also paid $32.36 BILLION in taxes for the same period. In other words they paid almost 3 dollars in tax for every dollar in profits. Is that abusive or excessive TAXATION?

One could also argue that they receive various indirect subsidies such as motorists only being charged a fraction of the cost of marinating roads and the rest of the infrastructure and services needed for driving and military protection in the Persian Gulf and other regions. I also wonder about Exxon’s accounting. Oil companies tend to buy from and sell to subsidiaries or companies they partially own.

[Craig Lamson]

There is a lot of talk about excess or abusive profits. For the second quarter EXXON posted $11.68 billion in profits on sales of $138 billion or less that 9% profit. Is that excessive or abusive profit? It should also be noted that EXXON also paid $32.36 BILLION in taxes for the same period. In other words they paid almost 3 dollars in tax for every dollar in profits. Is that abusive or excessive TAXATION?

One could also argue that they receive various indirect subsidies such as motorists only being charged a fraction of the cost of marinating roads and the rest of the infrastructure and services needed for driving and military protection in the Persian Gulf and other regions. I also wonder about Exxon’s accounting. Oil companies tend to buy from and sell to subsidiaries or companies they partially own.

You can argue until the cows come home but the fact remains they paid nearly 3 bucks in tax for every dollar of profit. I don't know about you, but that level of taxation on a personal basis would cause me to be quite upset. Yet there are those you maintain that 9% profit is considered a windfall or excessive or abusive. Would you feel the same if it was your business?

[Craig Lamson]

The most reasonable solution would be for a state agency to decide, factors would be the utility's profit margin, the hardship that increases would cause its customers.

Thats the case where I live, but I as I stated I'm not sure what the situation is Stephen case.

And what would be the cost of converting? This might not be a viable option for many consumers.

The cost is really a non issue. You wanted to compare the gas utility to a monopoly. They are clearly not. Other energy sources are available and the consumer has a wide range of choices. That part of your arguement fails. Secondly there are alternative sources to purchase natural gas, at least here, which also defeats the argument that there is a monopoly.

This is nothing but class envy......

[Craig Lamson]

....of marinating roads ....

Can't let this one go....how does a road taste when properly marinated?