Questions for Gary Mack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Guys,

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

Z ? Now, when Airforce One left, headed back towards Washington to take the president to the Bethesda hospital for the autopsy, these two agents received a phonecall from headquarters and were told to report to Andrews airforce base and for taking the motorcade to Bethesda and also view the autopsy to uphold the FBI?s interest. These are the only two agents, or let?s say the only two individuals that night, that took notes as to who was in and out of that room.

I have filmed agent Jim Sibert and have talked to agent Francis O?Neill, both of whom viewed the autopsy. And what they have to say, just totally blows the Warren Commission out of the water. Uh, for instance, and bear with me, I just got three paragraphs and I think these three paragraphs will prove there was a conspiracy and a cover-up.

G ? Okay, By all means, go ahead!

Z ? (reading out loud) ?During the last stages of this autopsy Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole, which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.?

That happens to be five and a half inches below the neck line.

?This opening was probed by Dr Humes with a finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entered at this point and entered in a downward position of 55 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a SHORT distance, in as much that the end of the opening could be felt with a finger. In as much that no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area, and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body, as determined by total-body X-rays and inspection revealing that there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explaining why they could not find no bullets.?

What that means, is that this bullet that enterered the back of president Kennedy did not exit the body. If you believe these two agents? testimony of their report, there cannot be, can NOT be a magic bullet.

Mike Williams said:

Was it possible, yes, ...

Wow! That's basically the same what Gary Mack says! No further comments.

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

YES!

As well as the fact that when the autopsy ended, the conclusion being (among all parties present) that the bullet had gone into the back only a short distance which could be probed with the little finger to the approximate knuckle depth.

Now for the difficult part!

Exactly why? would a normally 2,000 to 2,200 fps projectile only penetrate to a depth of less than two inches.

Answer: It was not travelling at that velocity.

Exactly why was the back wound an "atypical" "punch" wound of entry with relatively clean-cut edges, which measured 4mm X 7mm in size.

Answer: Because the flat base of CE399 measured exactly 4mm X 7mm in size.

Exactly why did the back wound have considerable fabric from the coat and shirt "punched" out and carried down into the wound of entry when a normally entering projectile does not do this?

Answer: Because the flat deformed (4mm X 7mm) base of CE399 acted exactly like a Wadcutter bullet (aka paper punch) and punched out fabric from the coat and shirt and carried this fabric down into the wound of entry.

Now, if one could only determine exactly what it was that caused CE399 to lose stability, begin to tumble in flight, and end up striking JFK in a base-first attitude.

Don't suppose that it could have had something to do with the tree limbs in the live oak tree located directly under the sixth floor window.

Which happens to be the exact same tree which Mr. Robert West, on May 25, 1964, the day after the WC completed their phony re-enactment, observed members of the WC re-enactment group[ up in the top of with a bucket lift and they were cutting and removing the limbs from the tree.

==============================================================================

Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.

As a general rule, it merely means that one does not understand the evidence.

Which causes some persons to thereafter make up tales in which they played some integral part!

[Charles Drago]

Charles,

The perspective I offered was strictly physical. Yes the SBT was possible. The projectile did have the force and penetration ability to achieve the feat. I dont believe the SBT for a second, but not because it was ballistically impossible, but rather that not once has anyone proven the targets were in such a position.

Was is possible, yes, did it happen in this instance.....IMO....NO.

Mike,

We're arguing semantics ... except as follows:

"Opinion" is irrelevant in the JFK assassination case in terms of the "how" -- conspiracy -- and certain other elements, including the SBT.

The Single Bullet Theory is a lie.

Not opinion.

FACT!

[Mike Williams]

Charles,

The perspective I offered was strictly physical. Yes the SBT was possible. The projectile did have the force and penetration ability to achieve the feat. I dont believe the SBT for a second, but not because it was ballistically impossible, but rather that not once has anyone proven the targets were in such a position.

Was is possible, yes, did it happen in this instance.....IMO....NO.

Mike,

We're arguing semantics ... except as follows:

"Opinion" is irrelevant in the JFK assassination case in terms of the "how" -- conspiracy -- and certain other elements, including the SBT.

The Single Bullet Theory is a lie.

Not opinion.

FACT!

Charles,

Then let us of course end the semantics.

I concur it was a lie, of epic complication and proportion.

Mike

[Charles Drago]

This common ground we're finding ... it can't go on much longer, can it???

[Mike Williams]

Guys,

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

Z ? Now, when Airforce One left, headed back towards Washington to take the president to the Bethesda hospital for the autopsy, these two agents received a phonecall from headquarters and were told to report to Andrews airforce base and for taking the motorcade to Bethesda and also view the autopsy to uphold the FBI?s interest. These are the only two agents, or let?s say the only two individuals that night, that took notes as to who was in and out of that room.

I have filmed agent Jim Sibert and have talked to agent Francis O?Neill, both of whom viewed the autopsy. And what they have to say, just totally blows the Warren Commission out of the water. Uh, for instance, and bear with me, I just got three paragraphs and I think these three paragraphs will prove there was a conspiracy and a cover-up.

G ? Okay, By all means, go ahead!

Z ? (reading out loud) ?During the last stages of this autopsy Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole, which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.?

That happens to be five and a half inches below the neck line.

?This opening was probed by Dr Humes with a finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entered at this point and entered in a downward position of 55 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a SHORT distance, in as much that the end of the opening could be felt with a finger. In as much that no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area, and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body, as determined by total-body X-rays and inspection revealing that there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explaining why they could not find no bullets.?

What that means, is that this bullet that enterered the back of president Kennedy did not exit the body. If you believe these two agents? testimony of their report, there cannot be, can NOT be a magic bullet.

Mike Williams said:

Was it possible, yes, ...

Wow! That's basically the same what Gary Mack says! No further comments.

Wim,

The SBT is physically possible. There is nothing in the ballistics that says it could not happen. However I myself believe it to be hogwash.

Given your past track record with comments, I dont blame you for stopping further comments. Your comments matter little as your discretion has been defined. Are you ever going to get back around to refuting anything I said about your boy Jimmy?

By the way, there is evidence in the 6th floor cartridge casings that refute the SBT as well. But then again I suspect investigating cartridge casings is not your strong suit.

Wim now wander on back to the play dough pack and let the big people talk ok?

Mike

[Cliff Varnell]

Everybody wants to start with the entry wound to Kennedy when dealing with the SBT.

There's a reason for that.

The T3 back wound is the easiest fact to prove.

A ten year old can grasp the fact that JFK's neck didn't extend 4 inches

below the bottom of his clothing collars.

Unless, of course, the ten year old is an avid JFK researcher with a fetish for

complexity...

Edited August 15, 2008 by Cliff Varnell

[Mike Williams]

Guys,

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

Z ? Now, when Airforce One left, headed back towards Washington to take the president to the Bethesda hospital for the autopsy, these two agents received a phonecall from headquarters and were told to report to Andrews airforce base and for taking the motorcade to Bethesda and also view the autopsy to uphold the FBI?s interest. These are the only two agents, or let?s say the only two individuals that night, that took notes as to who was in and out of that room.

I have filmed agent Jim Sibert and have talked to agent Francis O?Neill, both of whom viewed the autopsy. And what they have to say, just totally blows the Warren Commission out of the water. Uh, for instance, and bear with me, I just got three paragraphs and I think these three paragraphs will prove there was a conspiracy and a cover-up.

G ? Okay, By all means, go ahead!

Z ? (reading out loud) ?During the last stages of this autopsy Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole, which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.?

That happens to be five and a half inches below the neck line.

?This opening was probed by Dr Humes with a finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entered at this point and entered in a downward position of 55 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a SHORT distance, in as much that the end of the opening could be felt with a finger. In as much that no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area, and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body, as determined by total-body X-rays and inspection revealing that there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explaining why they could not find no bullets.?

What that means, is that this bullet that enterered the back of president Kennedy did not exit the body. If you believe these two agents? testimony of their report, there cannot be, can NOT be a magic bullet.

Mike Williams said:

Was it possible, yes, ...

Wow! That's basically the same what Gary Mack says! No further comments.

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

YES!

As well as the fact that when the autopsy ended, the conclusion being (among all parties present) that the bullet had gone into the back only a short distance which could be probed with the little finger to the approximate knuckle depth.

Now for the difficult part!

Exactly why? would a normally 2,000 to 2,200 fps projectile only penetrate to a depth of less than two inches.

Answer: It was not travelling at that velocity.

Exactly why was the back wound an "atypical" "punch" wound of entry with relatively clean-cut edges, which measured 4mm X 7mm in size.

Answer: Because the flat base of CE399 measured exactly 4mm X 7mm in size.

Exactly why did the back wound have considerable fabric from the coat and shirt "punched" out and carried down into the wound of entry when a normally entering projectile does not do this?

Answer: Because the flat deformed (4mm X 7mm) base of CE399 acted exactly like a Wadcutter bullet (aka paper punch) and punched out fabric from the coat and shirt and carried this fabric down into the wound of entry.

Now, if one could only determine exactly what it was that caused CE399 to lose stability, begin to tumble in flight, and end up striking JFK in a base-first attitude.

Don't suppose that it could have had something to do with the tree limbs in the live oak tree located directly under the sixth floor window.

Which happens to be the exact same tree which Mr. Robert West, on May 25, 1964, the day after the WC completed their phony re-enactment, observed members of the WC re-enactment group[ up in the top of with a bucket lift and they were cutting and removing the limbs from the tree.

==============================================================================

Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.

As a general rule, it merely means that one does not understand the evidence.

Which causes some persons to thereafter make up tales in which they played some integral part!

Heres something of interest. I have no doubt that the back wound was in fact only penetrated to a depth of 2". However reading some of the studies of E Forrest Chapman would give us another possibility. CE544 showed indications of having abnormally shallow bolt face markings. What this means is that it did not fire at full velocity. If I recall correctly Chapman puts the velocity in the 20% range. Since the normal tested FPS was 2182, then this would be in the 400 FPS range.

We know that in order for the projectile to penetrate to a depth of 2" it had to strike the body at 400 fps, this would exert 60 ft lbs of energy, and thus consuming 30 ft lbs per inch, cause the bullet to stop 2 inches into the flesh.

Given the travel distance that would have the projectile leaving the barrel at some 439 feet per second. (easily figured using the velocity and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet).

This would in fact cause the bullet to punch more, and pierce less, dragging clothing into the wound. It would also have caused the projectile to strike about 13-15 inches low of the aim point. If a shooter were leading the target properly, what we would see is a shot that strikes far lower than desired. About 13 inches lower, or, about 6 inches down from the collar.

CE545 showed signs of being the only cartridge that performed as expected.

Tom, CE543 has many issues. Exceptionally deep primer indentation, Marks from repeated loading, and bolt face markings that were so shallow as to only indicate loading (much like we see on CE141). For the ones who know what this means, its revealing.

There was without doubt something that cause the projectile that struck JFK in the back to be greatly diminished in velocity, Im just not convinced it was a tree limb. In the few instances I have fired Carcano rounds to replicate this, a deflection almost without fail caused the projectile to veer so badly off course as to make striking the target almost impossible. Given the indications of a less than full velocity discharge on CE544, I think our answer maybe found.

Mike

[Pamela Brown]

There is no one simple "SBT". There are a number of Single Bullet scenarios, and each of them is different. The WC used a range of frames of the Z-film whereby they thought an SBT was possible, the HSCA focused around Z-190 and Posner focused on the Z222-3 because of the shadow he thought was a 'lapel flip'.

So before any scenario can be debated as to its credibility, it needs to be defined in terms of just what Z-frame it represents.

[Mike Williams]

There is no one simple "SBT". There are a number of Single Bullet scenarios, and each of them is different. The WC used a range of frames of the Z-film whereby they thought an SBT was possible, the HSCA focused around Z-190 and Posner focused on the Z222-3 because of the shadow he thought was a 'lapel flip'.

So before any scenario can be debated as to its credibility, it needs to be defined in terms of just what Z-frame it represents.

And then again, when one considers the overwhelming evidence that the bullet did not traverse the body, one can then realize that the SBT is a snipe hunt one should not waste their time on.

Mike

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Guys,

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

Z ? Now, when Airforce One left, headed back towards Washington to take the president to the Bethesda hospital for the autopsy, these two agents received a phonecall from headquarters and were told to report to Andrews airforce base and for taking the motorcade to Bethesda and also view the autopsy to uphold the FBI?s interest. These are the only two agents, or let?s say the only two individuals that night, that took notes as to who was in and out of that room.

I have filmed agent Jim Sibert and have talked to agent Francis O?Neill, both of whom viewed the autopsy. And what they have to say, just totally blows the Warren Commission out of the water. Uh, for instance, and bear with me, I just got three paragraphs and I think these three paragraphs will prove there was a conspiracy and a cover-up.

G ? Okay, By all means, go ahead!

Z ? (reading out loud) ?During the last stages of this autopsy Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole, which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.?

That happens to be five and a half inches below the neck line.

?This opening was probed by Dr Humes with a finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entered at this point and entered in a downward position of 55 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a SHORT distance, in as much that the end of the opening could be felt with a finger. In as much that no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area, and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body, as determined by total-body X-rays and inspection revealing that there was no point of exit. The individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explaining why they could not find no bullets.?

What that means, is that this bullet that enterered the back of president Kennedy did not exit the body. If you believe these two agents? testimony of their report, there cannot be, can NOT be a magic bullet.

Mike Williams said:

Was it possible, yes, ...

Wow! That's basically the same what Gary Mack says! No further comments.

Isn't it an iron hard fact that the back wound was probed and found to have been a shallow wound with no exit?

YES!

As well as the fact that when the autopsy ended, the conclusion being (among all parties present) that the bullet had gone into the back only a short distance which could be probed with the little finger to the approximate knuckle depth.

Now for the difficult part!

Exactly why? would a normally 2,000 to 2,200 fps projectile only penetrate to a depth of less than two inches.

Answer: It was not travelling at that velocity.

Exactly why was the back wound an "atypical" "punch" wound of entry with relatively clean-cut edges, which measured 4mm X 7mm in size.

Answer: Because the flat base of CE399 measured exactly 4mm X 7mm in size.

Exactly why did the back wound have considerable fabric from the coat and shirt "punched" out and carried down into the wound of entry when a normally entering projectile does not do this?

Answer: Because the flat deformed (4mm X 7mm) base of CE399 acted exactly like a Wadcutter bullet (aka paper punch) and punched out fabric from the coat and shirt and carried this fabric down into the wound of entry.

Now, if one could only determine exactly what it was that caused CE399 to lose stability, begin to tumble in flight, and end up striking JFK in a base-first attitude.

Don't suppose that it could have had something to do with the tree limbs in the live oak tree located directly under the sixth floor window.

Which happens to be the exact same tree which Mr. Robert West, on May 25, 1964, the day after the WC completed their phony re-enactment, observed members of the WC re-enactment group[ up in the top of with a bucket lift and they were cutting and removing the limbs from the tree.

==============================================================================

Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence.

As a general rule, it merely means that one does not understand the evidence.

Which causes some persons to thereafter make up tales in which they played some integral part!

Heres something of interest. I have no doubt that the back wound was in fact only penetrated to a depth of 2". However reading some of the studies of E Forrest Chapman would give us another possibility. CE544 showed indications of having abnormally shallow bolt face markings. What this means is that it did not fire at full velocity. If I recall correctly Chapman puts the velocity in the 20% range. Since the normal tested FPS was 2182, then this would be in the 400 FPS range.

We know that in order for the projectile to penetrate to a depth of 2" it had to strike the body at 400 fps, this would exert 60 ft lbs of energy, and thus consuming 30 ft lbs per inch, cause the bullet to stop 2 inches into the flesh.

Given the travel distance that would have the projectile leaving the barrel at some 439 feet per second. (easily figured using the velocity and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet).

This would in fact cause the bullet to punch more, and pierce less, dragging clothing into the wound. It would also have caused the projectile to strike about 13-15 inches low of the aim point. If a shooter were leading the target properly, what we would see is a shot that strikes far lower than desired. About 13 inches lower, or, about 6 inches down from the collar.

CE545 showed signs of being the only cartridge that performed as expected.

Tom, CE543 has many issues. Exceptionally deep primer indentation, Marks from repeated loading, and bolt face markings that were so shallow as to only indicate loading (much like we see on CE141). For the ones who know what this means, its revealing.

There was without doubt something that cause the projectile that struck JFK in the back to be greatly diminished in velocity, Im just not convinced it was a tree limb. In the few instances I have fired Carcano rounds to replicate this, a deflection almost without fail caused the projectile to veer so badly off course as to make striking the target almost impossible. Given the indications of a less than full velocity discharge on CE544, I think our answer maybe found.

Mike

Although I have long suspicioned that Robert Frazier has always known more than he has told, I have yet to find any of that testimony in his specific field to be incorrect.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

The comparison we made was of the marks appearing in this photograph, 558, in fairly close proximity to the firing pinhole, since that is the area that the primer in the head of the cartridge case comes in contact with.

The primer in a cartridge case normally takes marks more readily than the surrounding brass portion of the cartridge case, which is a considerably harder metal and is not impressed with these marks as readily.

The three cartridge cases, 553, 554, and 555, were compared--

Mr. EISENBERG - Is that 543, 544, and 545?

Mr. FRAZIER - I am sorry--yes, 543, 544, and 545. These three cartridge cases were placed one at a time on the comparison microscope, and the surfaces having the breech-face marks or the bolt marks were compared with those on the test cartridge cases, Exhibit 557. As a result of comparing the pattern of microscopic markings on the test cartridge cases and those marks on Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, both of the face of the bolt and the firing pin, I concluded that these three had been fired in this particular weapon.

Mr. FRAZIER - In the case of firing-pin impressions which are shown on Exhibit 561, the marks result from two related sources; excuse me, not sources, but from two related causes, one being the force given to the firing pin driving it into the primer to set off the cartridge, and the second being the force of the powder charge inside the cartridge being driven back--driving the primer back against the firing pin at the same time, so that the metal of the primer is-caused to flow or be stamped by the firing pin and pressed against by the gases, so that any irregularities in the firing pin will be impressed into the primer of the cartridge case.

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; there are, for the same reason, that metal does not flow the same in every instance, and it will not be impressed to the same depth and to the same amount, depending on the type of metal, the blow that is struck, and the pressures involved.

==============================================================================

Frazier does not even broach upon the bolt face markings on the casings as proof, as the harder brass casing is not subject to leave the full and repetative tell-tale impressions as does the softer primer metal, it's rearward thrust into the bolt face, and the firing pin impression into this softer metal.

As any qualified Firearms & Toolmark Examiner will inform, even these are subject to considerable variations due to miniscule differences in cartridge casing size and bullet, which affects the full aspects of the seating (within the chamber) process, as well as the fact that a first shot fired seats more loosely and is subject to more "blowback" of the casing as a result of the not yet heated chamber.

Not suprisingly, even an extremely small residue of expended powder, which gets between the bolt facing and the cartridge casing base, can severely affect bolt-face markings which are imparted to the brass casing.

The "other" markings on the casing (such as the follow-up spring and ejector markings) appear to indicate that the one specific bullet was once chambered into another Carcano.

Perhaps it has seen the true Klein's Carbine prior to it's journey to the sixth floor of the TSDB and encounter with the Model 91/38.

P.S. When we get to CE399, you may have to reconsider.

[Mark Knight]

In case you hadn't noticed,Tom Purvis has laid out a convinvcing case as to how the SBT could be total horse manure, yet the scenario of a single assassin could be plausible.

No, I have not noticed, but It doesn't surprise coming from Purvis. Please DO explain!

By the way, the statement that "without the single bullet theory, you have no single assassin", comes from Dr. Cyril Wecht. And thusfar I cannot shoot holes in that statement. So yes, please give me the explanation on how he is wrong!

Please tell me how Oswald could have caused all the wounds in JFK and Conally with three shots (one miss), if one of his two hits did not penetrate both men?

Wim

Wim, you err when you assume one miss. As the followers of Jim Jones discovered far too late, it's not always wise to drink the kool-aid the "authorities" hand out.

Here's a synopsis of Tom's case, as posted on another thread today:

Whether one accepts it or not!

#1. Fired at approximately Z204/Z206. Almost miss due primarily as same reason of Walker miss. (Scope shooting line-of-sight v. line-of-flight at short ranges).

Bullet was travelling between one to two inches lower than line-of-sight through scope.

Impact in back [due] to interference with tree limb/fragment from bullet base out anterior neck of JFK.

Range/distance:---------------------------184 feet (+/-)

#2. Some 5.8 to 5.9 seconds later. Z313 Cowlick impact. Severe fragmentation of bullet due primarily to manner in which bullet exited the skull.

Fragment to right wrist of JBC.

Stationing: 4+65

Range/distance:-------------------------265 feet (+/-)

#3. Some 1.8 to 2.0 seconds later (impossible to factually determine due to Z-film manipulations of frames).

Lucky and/or good shot. JFK fully bent forward.

Stationing: 4+95

Impact to rear of skull at edge of hairline, passage through mid-brain and exit in frontal lobe of brain (skull missing area),

continuation on downward to strike JBC in right shoulder as JBC leaned across jump seats with head in Nellie's lap, thus exposing his shoulder in a lateral/horizontal position to the downward pathway of the bullet.

Range/distance:------------------------295 feet (+/-)

========================

Three shots-------three hits.

Rock chunking ranges for even the most basic USMC recruit after boot camp.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

There is no one simple "SBT". There are a number of Single Bullet scenarios, and each of them is different. The WC used a range of frames of the Z-film whereby they thought an SBT was possible, the HSCA focused around Z-190 and Posner focused on the Z222-3 because of the shadow he thought was a 'lapel flip'.

So before any scenario can be debated as to its credibility, it needs to be defined in terms of just what Z-frame it represents.

And then again, when one considers the overwhelming evidence that the bullet did not traverse the body, one can then realize that the SBT is a snipe hunt one should not waste their time on.

Mike

However!

In order to firmly disprove the WC's SBT, one must ultimately prove exactly how CE399 did come to exist as well as the wounds which it is responsible for.

Those who have chosen (for whatever reason) to avoid this dilemma have chosen the equally unacceptable theories of planted bullets, etc.

Which is all well and good for James Bond movies (of which they have apparantly watched far too many).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilemma

A dilemma (Greek δί-λημμα "double proposition") is a problem offering at least two solutions or possibilities, of which none are practically acceptable

The dilemma is sometimes used as a rhetorical device, in the form "you must accept either A, or B"; here A and B would be propositions each leading to some further conclusion. Applied in this way, it may be a fallacy, a false dichotomy.

================================================================================

For anyone who has ever become involved in even seemingly complex problem resolution, if neither "A" nor "B" presents an acceptable conclusion, then there must be, at minimum, a "C" out there somewhere, which would also be totally supported by and consistent with the known facts.

===============================

I too had "tunnel-vision" once. At about 30,000 feet after removal of 02 supply!

[William Kelly]

There is no one simple "SBT". There are a number of Single Bullet scenarios, and each of them is different. The WC used a range of frames of the Z-film whereby they thought an SBT was possible, the HSCA focused around Z-190 and Posner focused on the Z222-3 because of the shadow he thought was a 'lapel flip'.

So before any scenario can be debated as to its credibility, it needs to be defined in terms of just what Z-frame it represents.

And then again, when one considers the overwhelming evidence that the bullet did not traverse the body, one can then realize that the SBT is a snipe hunt one should not waste their time on.

Mike

However!

In order to firmly disprove the WC's SBT, one must ultimately prove exactly how CE399 did come to exist as well as the wounds which it is responsible for.

Those who have chosen (for whatever reason) to avoid this dilemma have chosen the equally unacceptable theories of planted bullets, etc.

Which is all well and good for James Bond movies (of which they have apparantly watched far too many).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilemma

A dilemma (Greek δί-λημμα "double proposition") is a problem offering at least two solutions or possibilities, of which none are practically acceptable

The dilemma is sometimes used as a rhetorical device, in the form "you must accept either A, or B"; here A and B would be propositions each leading to some further conclusion. Applied in this way, it may be a fallacy, a false dichotomy.

================================================================================

For anyone who has ever become involved in even seemingly complex problem resolution, if neither "A" nor "B" presents an acceptable conclusion, then there must be, at minimum, a "C" out there somewhere, which would also be totally supported by and consistent with the known facts.

===============================

I too had "tunnel-vision" once. At about 30,000 feet after removal of 02 supply!

What does Gary Mack have to do with it?

His opinion doesn't matter any more than Tom Purvis's opinion. Why base anything on opinion when the facts can be determined.

There would be NO confusion or misrepresentations or dissinformation or any dicomody or dilemma at all if everyone would agree that the US legal judicial system should empower a Federal Grand Jury to properly investigate the assassination of the President, and order a full, proper and normally required Forensic Autopsy of the victim, which would determine not only the cause of death, but create evidence that could be introduced into a US court of law.

Why debate the matter endlessly?

Ask why not a proper Forensic Autopsy of the victim so we can end this useless and needless bullxxxx.

Bk

Edited August 14, 2008 by William Kelly

[Don Jeffries]

The fact that we are still debating something like the single-bullet theory exemplifies just how hard it is going to be to ever get at the truth about the JFK assassination. This is basic stuff, and like Cliff says, any 10 year old child can see that such a "theory" is impossible.

-The holes in JFK's coat and shirt, combined with the back wound location noted in the original autopsy face sheet and by Admiral Burkley on the death certificate, alone disprove the SBT.

-The condition of identical aummunition, test fired into various substances, as revealed in the Warren Commission's Hearings & Exhibits, alone disprove the SBT.

-Even without the test fired ammunition, common sense should tell anyone that an essentially pristine bullet like CE399 could not possibly, under any circumstances, have caused 7 wounds in 2 people, including the shattering of a human wrist, one of the thickest bones in the human body.

We are really overthinking things here. As Cyril Wecht has said so often, "Show me one bullet, in the history of the world, that has done what this bullet is supposed to have done."

It is an entirely different matter as to whether or not a particular bullet could possibly cause 7 wounds in 2 people. If any bullet could do that, it would be visibly deformed to a great degree (as the test fired bullets in the government's own record show), and it would have to conform to the laws of physics. In other words, it would have to enter the first victim on a downward, slight right to left angle, and it would have to exit at a lower, slightly to the left point on that victim's body in order for the shot to have come from the 6th floor TSBD window.

[Don Jeffries]

I agree with Bill- why does Gary Mack's opinion matter so much? So many of us on these forums continue to cite this guy as the ultimate expert on everything related to the assassination. While I certaijnly don't question his knowledge, I most certainly do question his almost complete support of the official story.