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I have seen you draw your guesstimate at how much the south wall kicks back to the north from Betzners' position & it is wrong & I don't care how many hours you have been pottering around the plaza, what we are talking about here is the south wall & how it relates to the Blackdogman.

Since you obviously didn't notice the true angle of the south wall & its relevance to the position of BDM while you were in the plaza you could not have spent more than an hour on it!

We seem to share one thing in common and that is neither one of us knows what you are talking about. There is only one person in question beyond the wall between the time Betzner took his photo and Moorman too hers. That question pertains to whether the individual in each photo (Betzner/Willis/Moorman) is the same person. I believe you have admitted that you see the same face in each photo ... or do I need to post it for you so to refresh your memory? Whether or not the individual took a step one way or another between that 7+ second time span is of no value to me. The fact that we both have seen the same things in both photos that tells us it is the same idividual has awlays been the issue IMO. Your admission as to seeing the same thing in Moorman as in Betzner can be read in post #162 and I repeated what you said in post # 163.

Okay, hold on a minute.

You have already asked Gary & Robert to look at the LOS that Arnold would of had.

This has nothing to do with my study of the Blackdogman in Betzner & Willis.

My mistake!

I asked that they do what I did and that is to place someone where Gordon Arnold said he was in the Turner documentary and have them seen from both where Moorman and Betzner photographed the assassination and tell me what they found. I think it has everything to do with this issue for it is merely repeating what I had already observed and what you say is impossible.

But if there is a wall blocking your view to important geography then you should take further photos of the view from it's far side!

To show that the same figure seen in Moorman/Willis/ and Betzner is one in the same indiviual - one needs to place a person where Arnold said he stood and take replica photos from each filming location.

Obviously despite my efforts to educate you, you still have not one clue as to what is needed.

What is needed is for you to go to Dealey Plaza and see it for yourself.

That's a matter of opinion, I could say the exact same thing, no one has even said I am wrong, let alone show anything to support such a claim.

I guess that is how you look at it. When Groden looked at what I presented to him and said that he aggreed with my presentation, he is basically saying that he does not agree with you. When Mack says that Arnold in Moorman's photo is not standing at the South wall, then he is not agreeing with you either. Without using the same specific words as you did, they still implied that you were in error. BTW - Tony Cummings has been there when I walked through this stuff while in the plaza and I gave you his contact information. Avoiding Tony does not constitute avoiding the fact that there are those who don't agree with you.

Edited by Bill Miller
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Good Day.... Someone emailed me the following diagram. Does anyone know who originally drew the following diagram?

It's one of Bill (Millers') scetches Don, not very accurate & not meant to be either.

Alan

....Good Day Alan.... Here is the more accurate, and correct, 12:30 pm shadow

angle in 2 dimensions as viewed from above on a 2 dimensional professionally

surveyed map....

DPshadows1230pm.gif

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DPshadows1230pm.gif

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

DHS3elevatedYELLOW.gif

"In 1978 the House Select Committee on Assassinations was presented with

acoustical evidence that multiple shooters had been involved in the murder of

President John F. Kennedy. During the hearing, staff members played a tape

recording for the Committee with the explanation that they were about to hear a

rifle shot fired from the Grassy Knoll. After listening to this tape the ranking

Republican member of the Committee, Representative Samuel Devine of Ohio,

rose in the chamber to declare that he had a great deal of experience with

firearms and familiarity with rifle fire. He knew a gunshot when he heard one, he

said, and the sound alleged to be from the Grassy Knoll could be many things, but

it was clearly not a rifle shot. The staff then explained to Mr. Devine that the tape

recording was of a test shot fired from the Grassy Knoll that summer; not the

Dallas Police tape from 1963. The incident suggests two things. First, that one

cannot determine that a recorded sound is or is not gunfire merely by listening

with the naked ear. Secondly, it suggests that Congressman Devine may not have

been completely open-minded to the concept under investigation by his

Committee."

----Dr. DONALD THOMAS in his opening presentation remarks about his

accoustical studies to the 2001 "November in Dallas" "Lancer" conference.

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We seem to share one thing in common and that is neither one of us knows what you are talking about.

Give me some specifics & I'll try & talk you through your ignorance.

There is only one person in question beyond the wall between the time Betzner took his photo and Moorman too hers.

In your opinion you mean!

What about the gunflash in Nix that coincides with the headshot, that is behind the wall too!

That question pertains to whether the individual in each photo (Betzner/Willis/Moorman) is the same person.

There is no "person" behind the wall in Moorman, only shapes & shadows that can have different interpritations.

I believe you have admitted that you see the same face in each photo ... or do I need to post it for you so to refresh your memory?

Boy, you are slow when it suits you!

Do you also remember me saying that in my opinion BDM has left the scene by the time Moorman took her photo?

I have no idea what happened behind the wall during the shooting, anyone who claims he knows is full of it!

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=1342

Whether or not the individual took a step one way or another between that 7+ second time span is of no value to me. The fact that we both have seen the same things in both photos that tells us it is the same idividual has awlays been the issue IMO.

You see the face too???

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=1342

Your admission as to seeing the same thing in Moorman as in Betzner can be read in post #162 and I repeated what you said in post # 163.

What ever it was, odds are it had nothing to do with Arnold.

I asked that they do what I did and that is to place someone where Gordon Arnold said he was in the Turner documentary and have them seen from both where Moorman and Betzner photographed the assassination and tell me what they found. I think it has everything to do with this issue for it is merely repeating what I had already observed and what you say is impossible.

Yes! Blackdogman is on the grass leaning on the southwall, his position in Betzner rules out him being anywhere on the pathway.

To show that the same figure seen in Moorman/Willis/ and Betzner is one in the same indiviual - one needs to place a person where Arnold said he stood and take replica photos from each filming location.

No, you first place a person in the Blackdogman position, then stand behind him & look up the street to the Willis & Betzner positions. If you are trying to bolster the G.Arnold story, then I guess you can do what you like.

What is needed is for you to go to Dealey Plaza and see it for yourself.

Well if you had took the correct photos from the correct positions then I wouldn't have to waste my time on such a simple matter.

I guess that is how you look at it. When Groden looked at what I presented to him and said that he aggreed with my presentation, he is basically saying that he does not agree with you. When Mack says that Arnold in Moorman's photo is not standing at the South wall, then he is not agreeing with you either. Without using the same specific words as you did, they still implied that you were in error. BTW - Tony Cummings has been there when I walked through this stuff while in the plaza and I gave you his contact information. Avoiding Tony does not constitute avoiding the fact that there are those who don't agree with you.

There is no concrete evidence that pinpoints the position of Blackdogman or your Arnold figure behind the wall & until someone grabs correctly placed photos from the west side of the wall we never will.

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....Good Day Alan.... Here is the more accurate, and correct, 12:30 pm shadow

angle in 2 dimensions as viewed from above on a 2 dimensional professionally

surveyed map....

DPshadows1230pm.gif

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DPshadows1230pm.gif

Don Roberdeau

Thank you Don.

I'm pretty sure it is really close but I look forward to the day we can use photographs to put together a true picture of the geography behind the wall & how it relates to the Blackdogman position & the photographers LOS's.

Cheers!

Alan

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I look forward to the day we can use photographs to put together a true picture of the geography behind the wall & how it relates to the Blackdogman position & the photographers LOS's.

Cheers!

Alan

We have the Darnell footage taken about 5 minutes after the assassination. Of course, actually being there is the best approach.

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Give me some specifics & I'll try & talk you through your ignorance.

That doesn't deserve an answer.

In your opinion you mean!

What about the gunflash in Nix that coincides with the headshot, that is behind the wall too!

If you are talking to Robert Groden, Mark Oakes, myself, Tony Cummings, Jack White or most everyone who is familiar with the knoll and how it relates to the assassination films, then they would tell you the flash occurs at the fence, which technically is behind the wall. I would like for you to step back and look at the replies you have been making. You mention the muzzle flash in Nix as if it is the BDM (Black Dog Man) who fired it, yet in your last reply you said and I quote, "There is no "person" behind the wall in Moorman, only shapes & shadows that can have different interpritations. So if it is your opinion now that there is no one behind the wall in Moorman, then how do you justify implying that BDM is still being seen at the wall firing a gun? You seem to be trying to make a case for something that is an impossibility from the things that you have been saying.

There is no "person" behind the wall in Moorman, only shapes & shadows that can have different interpritations.

Adressed above.

I believe you have admitted that you see the same face in each photo ... or do I need to post it for you so to refresh your memory?

Boy, you are slow when it suits you!

Do you also remember me saying that in my opinion BDM has left the scene by the time Moorman took her photo?

I have no idea what happened behind the wall during the shooting, anyone who claims he knows is full of it!

Yes, I remember you saying that. I also remember you saying that you see the same face in the figure in Moorman's photo as you do the BDM. Then I remember you saying there is no one there in Moorman and that the image is nothing more than "shadows that can have different interpritations." (interpretations) Then I recall you saying that at the time of the head shot that a flash occurred at the wall as if to apply that more than shadows are still there, unless you meant that shadows can fire weapons and cause flashes. This is what I mean about you talking yourself into circles that have no possible way to connect the ends. You should step back and reevaluate your position.

No, I see the same thing Jack White and the rest of the world saw when the Badge Man blowups were shown on the MWKK.

What ever it was, odds are it had nothing to do with Arnold.

You have said the image shows the same face as BDM - then you say it's not there but rather it is merely shadows - then you say it was the source of the flash in the Nix film that occurred at the time of the kill shot - now you say whatever it is ... it was not Arnold.

Yes! Blackdogman is on the grass leaning on the southwall, his position in Betzner rules out him being anywhere on the pathway.

If you say so, but that is not what happens in Dealey Plaza.

No, you first place a person in the Blackdogman position, then stand behind him & look up the street to the Willis & Betzner positions. If you are trying to bolster the G.Arnold story, then I guess you can do what you like.

Someone else can explain what you are saying to me for you do not make any sense. If I lean someone against the wall - they will not match what is seen in Moorman's photograph. If I place someone where Arnold is in Moorman's photograph, then he will match the Willis and Betzner photo. That is the point I have made all along.

Well if you had took the correct photos from the correct positions then I wouldn't have to waste my time on such a simple matter.

As I recall, I posted in the beginning that I took a lot of photos - some of which were from the Betzner and Willis location looking back towards the wall with Mike still in position. I emptied the card into my hard drive and then soon afterwards my computer crashed and Tony saved what images he could before rebuilding my system. I paid Tony's motel and meal ticket to come from several states away to help with my studies and at the time he was the tech guy who knew all about digital images and such. Losing those pictures before saving them to a CD meant that my money spent in having Tony come to Dallas was wasted for the most part.

There is no concrete evidence that pinpoints the position of Blackdogman or your Arnold figure behind the wall & until someone grabs correctly placed photos from the west side of the wall we never will.

I look forward to redoing the images and seeing what you have to say about them then.

Edited by Bill Miller
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If you are talking to Robert Groden, Mark Oakes, myself, Tony Cummings, Jack White or most everyone who is familiar with the knoll and how it relates to the assassination films, then they would tell you the flash occurs at the fence, which technically is behind the wall.

The flash in NIX is behind the wall & in front of the fence.

I will post something for you tomorrow to illustrate this.

I would like for you to step back and look at the replies you have been making. You mention the muzzle flash in Nix as if it is the BDM (Black Dog Man) who fired it, yet in your last reply you said and I quote, "There is no "person" behind the wall in Moorman, only shapes & shadows that can have different interpritations. So if it is your opinion now that there is no one behind the wall in Moorman, then how do you justify implying that BDM is still being seen at the wall firing a gun? You seem to be trying to make a case for something that is an impossibility from the things that you have been saying.

Blackdogman was a person & he was behind the wall in Betzner & Willis(that is, of course, if one trusts these photos).

This is easy to prove & we don't need to go into it here.

The Badgeman & Arnold figures however, are in a different class.

No one can prove that what we are seeing above the wall in Moorman is a true interpritation of the many shapes & shadows above the wall.

I'm pretty sure there was at least one person up there behind the wall at the time Mary took her photo, the only point I was making is that what has been highlighted so far in the Moorman photograph, cannot be classified as real "people", surely they are only suggestions to other students of the case as to what we "may" be seeing.

That is my understanding.

I certainly don't trust the Arnold figure that we are seeing & I certainly wouldn't want anyone to trust the face that I see on this figures shoulder.

It's just a suggestion & I think it's rather unprofessional for you to treat the Arnold figure like "he" is anything more than that.

I also remember you saying that you see the same face in the figure in Moorman's photo as you do the BDM. Then I remember you saying there is no one there in Moorman and that the image is nothing more than "shadows that can have different interpritations." (interpretations) Then I recall you saying that at the time of the head shot that a flash occurred at the wall as if to apply that more than shadows are still there, unless you meant that shadows can fire weapons and cause flashes. This is what I mean about you talking yourself into circles that have no possible way to connect the ends. You should step back and reevaluate your position.

Your scenario has a man filming the motorcade from the pathway with a gunflash ocurring at the corner of the wall which is infront of him & you feel that I need to evaluate my position?

You have said the image shows the same face as BDM - then you say it's not there but rather it is merely shadows - then you say it was the source of the flash in the Nix film that occurred at the time of the kill shot - now you say whatever it is ... it was not Arnold.

If you want me to respond to this then quote the passages where have I have made these claims verbatim, you are quoting me out of context & as such, out of order.

If you say so, but that is not what happens in Dealey Plaza.

Where is your proof that BDM is not leaning on the wall in Betzner?

No, you first place a person in the Blackdogman position, then stand behind him & look up the street to the Willis & Betzner positions. If you are trying to bolster the G.Arnold story, then I guess you can do what you like.

Someone else can explain what you are saying to me for you do not make any sense. If I lean someone against the wall - they will not match what is seen in Moorman's photograph. If I place someone where Arnold is in Moorman's photograph, then he will match the Willis and Betzner photo. That is the point I have made all along.

Arnold is not in Moormans' photo that's where you are going wrong, it is only a theory(as is his whole precence anywhere near the plaza that day).

Blackdogman is the starting point because he is proven fact.

If you place someone where the you say the Arnold [figure] is in Moorman's photograph, then he will [not] match the Willis and Betzner photo. That is the point I am making.

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The flash in NIX is behind the wall & in front of the fence.

I will post something for you tomorrow to illustrate this.

I had never heard that from anyone before, but I guess that if the barrel of a gun was sticking over the fence that technically the flash would be between the wall and the fence.

Blackdogman was a person & he was behind the wall in Betzner & Willis(that is, of course, if one trusts these photos).

This is easy to prove & we don't need to go into it here.

The Badgeman & Arnold figures however, are in a different class.

No one can prove that what we are seeing above the wall in Moorman is a true interpritation of the many shapes & shadows above the wall.

Yet you posted that you saw the same face in the figure in Moorman's photo as you do in the figure in Betzner's, so how can one be real in your mind and not the other?

Your scenario has a man filming the motorcade from the pathway with a gunflash ocurring at the corner of the wall which is infront of him & you feel that I need to evaluate my position?

I guess what has messed you up is seeing that light spot on the guys right shoulder and thinking it was a muzzle flash.

If you want me to respond to this then quote the passages where have I have made these claims verbatim, you are quoting me out of context & as such, out of order.

I referenced two post of yours by number. One of your old replies looks to have been edited, but my following response should have some of what you said pasted in it.

Arnold is not in Moormans' photo that's where you are going wrong, it is only a theory(as is his whole precence anywhere near the plaza that day).

Blackdogman is the starting point because he is proven fact.

If you place someone where the you say the Arnold [figure] is in Moorman's photograph, then he will [not] match the Willis and Betzner photo. That is the point I am making.

I don't know what can and cannot happen in your office over in another country ... I can only tell you what happens in Dealey Plaza.

Edited by Bill Miller
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I've certainly not made up my mind about Mr. Arnold or the Badgeman, nor am I as well versed on these photographs as others on this forum.

However, I will say that the "Badgeman" image, both in the "Arnold" figure and in the "Badgeman" figure have lighting characteristics that appear to be consistent with the actual position and angle of the sun that day.

I'm certainly not endorsing one view or another. Merely, I'm pointing out that the photograph can not be ruled *out* due to inconsistent lighting.

Regards,

Frank

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However, I will say that the "Badgeman" image, both in the "Arnold" figure and in the "Badgeman" figure have lighting characteristics that appear to be consistent with the actual position and angle of the sun that day.

Frank - you just mentioned a part of the process that makes up photo interpretation an art. Your observation is justified and well taken.

Bill

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I had never heard that from anyone before, but I guess that if the barrel of a gun was sticking over the fence that technically the flash would be between the wall and the fence.

I have chosen a frame that gives you a good idea of how high the fence is from the Orville Nix position & also a small reminder of how close the flash was to the top o' the wall.

As for "not hearing it from anyone before" I suggest you go back & watch Roberts' "The Case for Conspiracy" again because that is is exactly what Robert illustrated, that the flash was behind the wall!!

He is also the [only] person to suggest the flash originates fom Blackdogman,

if you go & re-read my post from Tuesday where I mentioned the flash, you will note that despite what you may say, make no such claim.

Yet you posted that you saw the same face in the figure in Moorman's photo as you do in the figure in Betzner's, so how can one be real in your mind and not the other?

There is no "face" in Betzner, I can point to where a face would be on the figure I see, but the details that make up a face are not there. What I see in Moorman has eyes, nose, ears & a mouth, so [if] it is a real face, then of course it may well be the man we are seeing in Betzner & Willis but who am I to make such a statement as fact & expect to be taken seriously?

I really believe Blackdogman [may] of been a shooter & obviouslly[obviously] the sensible thing to do from such an open position is to make yourself scarce.

I'm not saying I know how it all went down [you are]!

You are the one who claims to have already made his "final conclusion" on this matter, I still believe we are far from knowing the truth.

I guess what has messed you up is seeing that light spot on the guys right shoulder and thinking it was a muzzle flash.

No, I'm talking about the flash in Nix, the one that you pointed out to me. It suggests that there was a man firing from behind the wall in full view of your Arnold in Moorman.

I referenced two post of yours by number. One of your old replies looks to have been edited, but my following response should have some of what you said pasted in it.

Like I said;

If you want me to respond to this then quote the passages where have I have made these claims verbatim, you are quoting me out of context & as such, out of order.

Arnold is not in Moormans' photo that's where you are going wrong, it is only a theory(as is his whole precence anywhere near the plaza that day).

Blackdogman is the starting point because he is proven fact.

If you place someone where the you say the Arnold [figure] is in Moorman's photograph, then he will [not] match the Willis and Betzner photo. That is the point I am making.

I don't know what can and cannot happen in your office over in another country ... I can only tell you what happens in Dealey Plaza.

I don't trust your "observations" on this topic, if you ever produce some proof to back up your claim that the Betzner & Moorman figures where standing in the same spot behind the wall it will be a miracle.

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The "flash" in full, taken from the Nix film as seen in Robert Grodens' "A Case for Conspiracy".

According to Robert, this flash "coincides with the headshot" & is behind the wall.

This is @ around half speed I think.

Alan - On page 193 of Groden's book "The Killing of a President", Robert has an arrow pointing to the figure beyond the wall. His color Nix frame shows the khaki color of his sunlit clothing which is seen in part over the wall and down the West side beyond the South wall. Please take note below ...

You may notice that the light spot you are talking about is to the left (our right) of the figure in the Nix film that Robert is pointing to. What you have been calling smoke in the Betzner photo is to the right (our left) of the figure. In trying to make a case for what you have been proposing one is faced with the idea that someone stood at the corner of the concrete wall in plain view and shot at Kennedy as early as Z186 and then again at the time of the head shot and managed to do so by switching shooting sides and without the Secret Service or the bystanders noticing it as they looked in his direction.

You may also look at the color of the clothing Robert is pointing out to you. That color is the color of the military uniforms worn by servicemen like Gordon Arnold. Jack White knew this and used that water color for the Arnold figure in the Badge Man images. We know from looking at Moorman's photograph that there is only the serviceman figure and the Badge Man figure, not to mention the possible RR employee.

Also, as I recall in one of Robert's videos he mentions movement above the wall just prior to the kill shot. I believe the lower light flash is that movement that Robert spoke about. Whether it is actually movement I cannot say. I can say that the light spot is not high enough above the wall to be the Badge Man and if the Arnold/BDM figure is seen in khaki clothing, then he cannot be shooting either unless he somehow shot from the hip and from the opposite side from before.

There is only one way that the evidence can make any sense as a whole and your scenario isn't working IMO.

Edited by Bill Miller
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You may notice that the light spot you are talking about is to the left (our right) of the figure in the Nix film that Robert is pointing to.

It is a flash, the flash that you agreed with Robert was a from a gun & it is behind the wall!

What you have been calling smoke in the Betzner photo is to the right (our left) of the figure. In trying to make a case for what you have been proposing one is faced with the idea that someone stood at the corner of the concrete wall in plain view and shot at Kennedy as early as Z186 and then again at the time of the head shot and managed to do so by switching shooting sides and without the Secret Service or the bystanders noticing it as they looked in his direction.

So you no longer believe this is a flash from a gun since you were reminded it is seen behind the wall & not the fence? Is that what your saying?

Also, as I recall in one of Robert's videos he mentions movement above the wall just prior to the kill shot. I believe the lower light flash is that movement that Robert spoke about. Whether it is actually movement I cannot say. I can say that the light spot is not high enough above the wall to be the Badge Man and if the Arnold/BDM figure is seen in khaki clothing, then he cannot be shooting either unless he somehow shot from the hip and from the opposite side from before.

The movement above the wall was not dealt with by Robert in "A Case for Conspiracy" but it is shown & is obviously quite seperate, although it does take place immeadiately after the "flash".

I have never heard this movement being discussed or analysed(only obscure references to it in relation to Arnold dodging bullets).

It is one of the most curious things I have ever seen in these films & it reminds me of someone clapping(his right hand coming down onto his left).

Yes Bill, now I have someone up there applauding the headshot.

There is only one way that the evidence can make any sense as a whole and your scenario isn't working IMO.

As far as I am aware, I am only saying that Blackdogman may of been a shooter(I think he was) & just in case you never noticed, the Secret Service where behind the Stemmons Freeway sign from BDM when they heard the first shot.

It was you who told me about the flash behind the wall that coincides with the Badgeman shot.

Robert said it was from behind the wall & now your disowning it, what gives?

Edited by Alan Healy
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As far as I am aware, I am only saying that Blackdogman may of been a shooter(I think he was) & just in case you never noticed, the Secret Service where behind the Stemmons Freeway sign from BDM when they heard the first shot.

Clint Hill looks to be able to see the BDM in the Willis photo - Kellerman and Greer were SS and not behind the road sign ... were they not?

It was you who told me about the flash behind the wall that coincides with the Badgeman shot.

Robert said it was from behind the wall & now your disowning it, what gives?

Let me share what Gary Mack has to say ...

"Neither Groden nor anyone else can tell whether the flash is behind the wall

or behind the fence. All one can say is that it is ABOVE the wall. The

Gordon Arnold figure is to the left of the flash (as we look at it). The

flash and light area just to the left seem to correspond to the Badge Man

location.

Gary Mack"

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