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One example is the precise location that ARNOLD claims he was standing in when the shotS ARNOLD claimed he heard passed him.... ARNOLD's claimed location in this 1989 interview is not supported by the MOORMAN polaroid mandatory line-of-sight, and, it is not supported by any other photographic line-of-sight west of the far-west end of the retaining wall edge.

Moorman crop of the southern end of the retaining wall.

- lee

Good Day Lee.... Three points.... First, the above quote you attached onto a MOORMAN polaroid crop, imho, has nothing to do with HUDSON also seeing a, supposed, ARNOLD.... Here is the entire quoted, related context of LIEBELER's specific questioning to which HUDSON responded in the quote answer you chose to provide without the LIEBELER question....

<QUOTE>

...

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you see this little pedestal back up here?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Just above the "X" where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember, during the time the president went by?

Mr. HUDSON - Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole bunch of them - a lot of people in there - a lot of people in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you se anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get - taking pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see a man with a movie picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time - now - I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Mr. LIEBELER - Standing across Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - With a motion picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Well he had a camera - I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera.

...

<END QUOTE>

Quite clearly --when one chooses to provide and consider the entire context of LIEBELOR's "anybody standing up" on the "little pedestal" specific question that HUDSON responded to, it is transparent that LIEBELER was asking HUDSON if HUDSON had noticed ZAPRUDER and SITZMAN standing on the "little pedestal" that ZAPRUDER and SITZMAN stood upon about 50' from HUDSON.

Additionally, the "man back over here on this triangle" that HUDSON testified to was not ARNOLD. IMHO, more than likely, HUDSON was referring specifically to seeing either ALTGENS or BOTHUN (more than likely it was ALTGENS; during the attack ALTGENS was actually holding his camera, while BOTHUN was standing just a few feet southeast of ALTGENS--both are seen in the Z-film standing within the Main/Elm Streets "north infield grass" "triangle," about 75' from HUDSON)

....Secondly, could you please provide your MOORMAN un-enhanced scan showing a much wider area of the "Moorman crop of the southern end of the retaining wall" en-hanced crop that you provided?--your un-enhanced crop and your en-hanced/yellow-outlined crop are virtually meaningless without also first providing for everyone a much larger-view area reference for exactly which more general part of your MOORMAN polaroid copy that you cropped and en-hanced.

....Thirdly, based on ARNOLD's 1989 "SFM" oral history claims and the very specific ARNOLD 1989 "SFM" claims he made in his answers of precisely where he was standing that I quoted in the very first post of this topic, can you please mark on a professionally-surveyed DP map your interpreted specific location point --or even a small diameter circle you interpret his being within-- that based on ARNOLD's 1989 "SFM" attack location claims, you think where ARNOLD was standing when the MOORMAN #5 polaroid was captured at Zf-315.6?

....Based on all of ARNOLD's stated public claims from when he first self-proclaimed himself to be an attack witness circa 1978, to his 1995 death, in your opinion, which direction away from his, supposed, filming point did ARNOLD claim he reacted to and dove towards when ARNOLD's claimed first shot passed close to him?--did ARNOLD move/dive to his left, right, forward, or did ARNOLD move/dive backwards? (or do you interpret his claims that he did not dive, at all?)

....Just curious, what is your opinion about the HSCA-determined location for the " 'grassy knoll' picket fenceline assassin"? (HSCA-determined to be 8' to 9' west of the picket fence corner)

....What is your opinion about "seeing" from MARY ANN MOORMAN's much lower perspective captured in her polaroid's mandatory line-of-sight the, supposed, 5' 10" ARNOLD image's waistline beltline/belt buckle "seen" several inches above the 3' 4" tall retaining wall in en-hanced versions of the MOORMAN polaroid?

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

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"Assumption is the 'mother' of all f_ _k-ups"

" 'Chance,' favors the prepared mind"

----mercenary's leader in the movie, "Under Seige 2: Dark Territory"

Edited by Don Roberdeau
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QUOTE:

Quite clearly --when one chooses to provide and consider the entire context of LIEBELOR's "anybody standing up" on the "little pedestal" specific question that HUDSON responded to, it is transparent that LIEBELER was asking HUDSON if HUDSON had noticed ZAPRUDER and SITZMAN standing on the "little pedestal" that ZAPRUDER and SITZMAN stood upon about 50' from HUDSON.

Additionally, the "man back over here on this triangle" that HUDSON testified to was not ARNOLD. IMHO, more than likely, HUDSON was specifically referring specifically to either ALTGENS or BOTHUN (more than likely it was ALTGENS/

Hi Don.

I agree with both of the statements made above, i also do not put much stock in the Gordon Arnold story, or that Oliver is Babushka..

I have a 7mb version of an " Unenhanced Version " of a "Cropped" Moorman.

It was kindly provided by a member of this forum.

Craig Lamson.

QUOTE:

I have posted on my web photo gallery a crop of the Thompson Moorman. The image I have posted is from the drum scan we had made of the copy negative. It is posted exactly as it came off the drum scanner, with no levels or curves adjustment nor any sharpening. The negative was scanned to film grain level and its a 137mb 8 bit tiff file. The crop I am posting has been saved from the original tif as a png file, which is a lossless compression format. There are no artifacts in this file. To save this file to your system from my web gallery, do a copy on the full image, create a new document in photoshop and paste the copy into this new doc.

Don.

It is impossible to try and post the whole image, but if you would like to study it i can try and email it to you.

I hope you have " Broadband" you will need it it's a VERY large Image.

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Good Day Robin.... Thank You. Sending the MOORMAN copy drumscan would be Gr8. (JOSIAH sent it to me many years ago, but, the drumscan he sent is located on an older computer of mine that I have had some problems with)

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

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TEAMWORK.gif

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"The Committee suspected that Veciana was lying when he denied that the retired CIA officer was Bishop. The Committee recognized that Veciana had an interest in renewing his anti-Castro operations that might have led him to protect the officer from exposure as Bishop so they could work together again. For his part, the retired officer aroused the Committee's suspicion when he told the Committee he did not recognize Veciana as the founder of Alpha 66, especially since the officer had once been deeply involved in Agency anti-Castro operations."

-House Select Committee on Assassinations' final report

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Good Day Lee.... Three points.... First, the above quote you attached, imho, has nothing to do with HUDSON also seeing a, supposed, ARNOLD.... Here is the entire quoted, related context of LIEBELER's specific questioning to which HUDSON responded in the quote you chose to fragment....

I don't see how I had much choice - the whole thing wouldn't have fit. I lifted out the significant portion, and see you missed the point I was attempting to make. Hudson is not seeing one individual, he is seeing many.

...

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you see this little pedestal back up here?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Just above the "X" where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember, durring the time the president went by?

Mr. HUDSON - Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole bunch of them - a lot of people in there - a lot of people in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you se anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get - taking pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see a man with a movie picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time - now - I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Mr. LIEBELER - Standing across Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - With a motion picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Well he had a camera - I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera.

...

<END QUOTE>

Quite clearly --when one chooses to provide and consider the entire context of LIEBELOR's "anybody standing up" on the "little pedestal" specific question that HUDSON responded to, it is transparent that LIEBELER was asking HUDSON if HUDSON had noticed ZAPRUDER and SITZMAN standing on the "little pedestal" that ZAPRUDER and SITZMAN stood upon about 50' from HUDSON.

I would agree.

Additionally, the "man back over here on this triangle" that HUDSON testified to was not ARNOLD. IMHO, more than likely, HUDSON was specifically referring specifically to either ALTGENS or BOTHUN (more than likely it was ALTGENS; during the attack BOTHUN was standing just a few feet southeast of ALTGENS--both are seen in the Z-film standing within the Main/Elm Streets "north infield grass" triangle, about 75' from HUDSON)

Agreed again. However, Hudson is first referring to the 'bunch' of people behind him. He then secondly refers to what he saw by way of a lone man with a camera, as per the question, in front of him. That is the gist of what he stated, which was also confirmed by James Altgens in his interview with David Lifton.

NOV.01..1965 : Telephone conversation between David Lifton and the

"Associated Press photographer/news photo editor/wire photo operator,

James WILLIAM ALTGENS," Ike"......

He was friendly on the phone and mentioned quite casually that just before the

motorcade came by, a number of people suddenly appeared behind the wall on the knoll. (84) He added that he thought it was an odd place to watch the parade

from since the car would speed up right there as it entered the Stemmons

Freeway. This was new, exciting information, but I was worried that Altgens

might be confusing this recollection with his description of people on the

overpass, which was mentioned in his Warren Commission testimony. But he

assured me he was talking about the wall on the grassy knoll--to the right of

the stairs when one faced the knoll.

When I asked Altgens if there were any police among the "people" he saw, he

replied, "I seem to remember that there were. (85)

(84) Author's memo, 11/1/65 conversation with Altgens

(85) Ibid

I don't know if Gordon Arnold was present or not - I think it is very difficult to make that determination, for a number of reasons:

- The man in question is no longer with this world.

- James Altgens is also deceased.

- The photos and films used to argue his existence have, IMO, seen substantial alteration. It's about the same for me to demonstrate that there was a crowd of people behind the wall, then it is for you or anyone else to claim that there was not - reason being, that tinting and overexposure of the negatives in question was used as a technique to conceal part of the operation, which, in this location, appears to have mainly been engaged in making a record of the assassination - that's only speculation, based upon what appear to be lenses. For credibility here I could only cite the published references of individuals that have claimed to have seen an 'other' film, or films, taken from this same general area.

- With the crowd that I see in enhancements of the general area of the retaining wall at the time of the shooting, I don't know how anyone could make a firm distinction as to whether or not one or another cameraman was Gordon Arnold. Not with the 'sanitized' material we have available today to work with.

....Secondly, could you please provide a MOORMAN un-enhanced scan showing a much wider area of the "Moorman crop of the southern end of the retaining wall" en-hanced crop that you provided?--your un-enhanced crop and your en-hanced/yellow-outlined crop are virtually meaningless without also first providing for everyone a much larger-view area reference for exactly which more general part of the MOORMAN polaroid you cropped and en-hanced.

Sure. If I can load it. Same source as Robin indicated, I used Craig Lamson's Moorman scan, because of it's high resolution. May need to resize it.

....Thirdly, based on ARNOLD's 1989 "SFM" oral history claims and specific ARNOLD answers that I quoted in the very first post of this topic, can you please mark your interpreted specific location point --or even a small circle-- that based on ARNOLD's 1989 "SFM" claims, you think ARNOLD was standing in when the MOORMAN #5 polaroid was captured at Zf-315.6?

I can't differentiate between Arnold and the other men back there. I'd be willing to take a stab at it, if I had a photo of Arnold from 1963, and also knew how he was dressed that day, but this would be inconclusive at best.

....Based on all of ARNOLD's stated public claims from when he first self-proclaimed himself to be an attack witness in 1978, to his 1995 death, in your opinion, which direction away from his, supposed, filming point did ARNOLD claim he reacted to and dove towards when ARNOLD's claimed first shot passed close to him?--left, right, forward, or did ARNOLD move/dive backwards? (or do you interpret his claims that he did not dive, at all?)

No clue. I worked on the Nix and peeling back the tint - very time consuming. I saw what appeared to me once to possibly be Gordon Arnold. The man seemed to duck his head at one point - I became disenchanted with the results of my studies on it, and gave up.

....Just curious, what is your opinion about the HSCA-determined location for the " 'grassy knoll' picket fenceline assassin"? (HSCA-determined to be 8' to 9' west of the picket fence corner)

Using the dictabelt? My opinion? A lost cause. Why play by their rules and struggle for Lee Harvey Oswald + One?

....What is your opinion about "seeing" from MOORMAN's polaroid mandatory line-of-sight the, supposed, 5' 10" ARNOLD image waistline beltline/belt buckle several inches above the 3' 4" tall retaining wall in en-hanced versions of the MOORMAN polaroid?

I don't understand the enhancement. I can't find anything that looks like it in any Moorman I have ever examined - at a loss on how to answer this one. I only see 'people' back there, plural. When I examine the 'enhancement' you refer to, I can't figure it out. It doesn't seem real. I am baffled by it. All that said, I am not a certified in Photogrammetry.

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Hi Lee.

I have emailed Don the Moorman Drum Scan,

It took about 5-minutes to go through. LOL <_<

G'day Don.

I hope you got my email OK.

Go easy on my friend Lee, he is one of the good guys.

He has been a great help to me in my assassination research and i am in debt to him.. !

Also, thank you for the great work which you have done with the Dealey Plaza plats, and the trajectory plotting.

Exellent job.

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Go easy on my friend Lee, he is one of the good guys.

He has been a great help to me in my assassination research and  i am in debt to him.. !

Thanks Robin!

The feeling is quite mutual.

New one on eBay. I always check for 'assination' - in addition to 'assassination.'

Anyway, I wonder if this view will tell us anything about whose foot it is we see hanging over the edge of the Lincoln when the 'Lemo' arrived at Parkland. I tried to enhance it a bit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...ssPageName=WDVW

- lee

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  • 1 year later...
....As I said above other than (i.e. not including) enlargement and cropping, I consider all other techniques, especially colorizing an original black and white photo, to be enhancing.

Don, would that definition of enhancing also include someone seeing the image once with their glasses off and again with their glasses on? I can certainly understand why Jack is saying that the film strip he posted is not really an enhancement no more than someone putting a correct filter on their camera lens to take an outdoor photograph.

....Hi Bill.... The wearing of eye glasses is an enhancement of the glasses-wearers original eye vision. :ice

Any change other than enlarging or cropping of an electronic copy of an original photograph does enhance the copied, changed photo

(see the official dictionary definition of "enhance" and "enhancement" provided within this thread)

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

BOND Photos Do Not Timestamp Gordon Arnold

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TEAMWORK.gif

DHS3elevatedYELLOW.gif

"Assumption is the 'mother' of all f_ _k-ups"

" 'Chance,' favors the prepared mind"

----mercenary soldier's leader in the movie, "Under Seige 2: Dark Territory"

Edited by Don Roberdeau
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