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# When push comes to shove

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Recently Tom Purvis and I have been discussing the first shot, and examining some of the evidence from that shot.

We both do agree that the projectile penetrated to about 2" and that the projectile did not strike JFK at full velocity.

We have many witnesses who tell us that JFK was driven forward, and slightly left by this impact. The question led me to take a look and compare the kinetic energy transfer of a transiting shot, as compared to one that simply penetrated 2" and stopped.

First lets take a look at the transfer from a transiting shot.

The average bullet velocity was 2182 fps, the projectile weight is 161 grains. This gives us an impact energy of 1701 ft lbs. In the WC version this bullet struck no bone, which is significant in our analysis.

The only way a projectile can transfer its full force of momentum is if said projectile remains inside the target. In situations where the projectile passes through we see a very small amount of the energy transfered. In cases where it strikes no bone, and using full metal jacket bullets, the transfer is approximately .01% of the total kinetic energy of the bullet itself. In this particular case, that equates to .1701 ft lbs, not even 1/4 of a ft lb of force. This would cause no movement of notice at all in a target as heavy as the human toro.

Now to give full perspective we must also consider that at 2182 feet per second, the bullet would have passed through the body in less than .0006 seconds.

Now lets take a look at a shot, that for what ever reason would have penetrated to 2".

Tests conducted on the ammunition provide that it requires 30 ft lbs of force to penetrate human soft tissue to the depth of one inch. Since our depth here is 2" we then know that the bullet struck with 60 ft lbs of force. Given the weight of the projectile we know that it struck at 409 feet per second.

So then in the first case scenario we have .1701 ft lbs being transfered to the target, and in the latter instance we have 60 ft lbs transferring.

In the first case the impact energy would be insignificant enough to move the target torso any noticeable amount.

The second is a much different story.

60 ft lbs of energy would certainly move the torso, and noticeably so.

Sports physics tells us that the average energy of a human punch is in the 60-90 ft lb range. Of course we are not talking Rocky Marciano here (his punch delivered at times almost 1000 ft lbs!)

The bottom line is that had the bullet transited at full velocity, it is doubtful the witnesses would have observed the President being knocked forward and left. However with a non-transiting bullet in the 60 ft lb class, this would be very likely exactly what they would see.

This may also be considered in the wounding of Connally. But thats for another time.

Mike

Edited by Mike Williams
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Saving Ammo: Two birds with one bullet.

Since CE399 struck the right transverse process of the C7 vertebrae with sufficient force to fracture and fragment this protruding bone, as well as also having sufficient energy/force to cause deviation to the spinal column, prior to glancing to it's final resting place above the apex of the right lung, then it would be an error to attempt to calculate the energy/force level at which the bullet struck JFK in the back; struck the bone of the neck; as well as compute the energy and velocity of the small 0.9 grain cone-shaped/flat-based fragment (CE840 missing fragment) of lead that was sheared from the base of the bullet due to impact.

Dr. Baxter - It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be---first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.

Mr. Specter - But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?

Dr. Baxter - Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.

Mr. Specter - Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet could have passed in the general direction which I have described to you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of great density?

Dr. Baxter - Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.

Mr. Specter - What would the situation there be as to the shock wave which you have heretofore described?

Dr. Baxter - There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is damage that is recognized several days later.

Mr. Specter - What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter - This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early course after a missile has passed through.

Mr. Specter - Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, and nature of the hole of exit?

Dr. Baxter - No.

--------------------------------------------------

Dr. CARRICO - As I recall, Dr. Perry, and I talked and tried after---later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound.

-------------------------------------------------------

Dr. JONES - The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious, amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps someone who has the proper weapon; bullets; range access; as well as equipment, can determine for us the velocity of a tumbling WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet at approximately the following:

1. Fired from Model 91/38 Carcano rifle in relatively good condition.

2. Range from rifle to tree limb:--------75 to 85 feet.

3. Range to measurement of velocity determination:-------185 feet.

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Saving Ammo: Two birds with one bullet.

Since CE399 struck the right transverse process of the C7 vertebrae with sufficient force to fracture and fragment this protruding bone, as well as also having sufficient energy/force to cause deviation to the spinal column, prior to glancing to it's final resting place above the apex of the right lung, then it would be an error to attempt to calculate the energy/force level at which the bullet struck JFK in the back; struck the bone of the neck; as well as compute the energy and velocity of the small 0.9 grain cone-shaped/flat-based fragment (CE840 missing fragment) of lead that was sheared from the base of the bullet due to impact.

Dr. Baxter - It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be---first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.

Mr. Specter - But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?

Dr. Baxter - Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.

Mr. Specter - Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet could have passed in the general direction which I have described to you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of great density?

Dr. Baxter - Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.

Mr. Specter - What would the situation there be as to the shock wave which you have heretofore described?

Dr. Baxter - There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is damage that is recognized several days later.

Mr. Specter - What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter - This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early course after a missile has passed through.

Mr. Specter - Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, and nature of the hole of exit?

Dr. Baxter - No.

--------------------------------------------------

Dr. CARRICO - As I recall, Dr. Perry, and I talked and tried after---later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound.

-------------------------------------------------------

Dr. JONES - The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious, amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps someone who has the proper weapon; bullets; range access; as well as equipment, can determine for us the velocity of a tumbling WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet at approximately the following:

1. Fired from Model 91/38 Carcano rifle in relatively good condition.

2. Range from rifle to tree limb:--------75 to 85 feet.

3. Range to measurement of velocity determination:-------185 feet.

Tom,

I have not read that the spinal column was deviated. I will look into that as it could be significant. The damage to the traverse process alone would have been minimal, and barely made a nick in the bone. Im not altogether certain this would hamper the accuracy of the velocity of the bullet in regard to the depth of the wound.

Determining penetration is rather simple when we know what the required energy is for a single inch of penetration. Further, and this is something I am working on, this could be directly related to the size and surface resistance of the projectile. If it requires 30 ft lbs of energy for a 161 grain projectile to penetrate one inch, with a surface area of 33.183mm then the resistance of human tissue can be calculated and velocity projected for much smaller fragments.

It would boil down to the fragment having enough velocity to transit the remaining distance after the projectile stopped its forward movement.

This is also something I have been looking into in regard to another thread discussing the fragment in the thigh with Jim Root.

One thing to consider in the case of a fragment, is that it lacks the weight to surface area ratio of the projectile on a whole.

Mike

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Saving Ammo: Two birds with one bullet.

Since CE399 struck the right transverse process of the C7 vertebrae with sufficient force to fracture and fragment this protruding bone, as well as also having sufficient energy/force to cause deviation to the spinal column, prior to glancing to it's final resting place above the apex of the right lung, then it would be an error to attempt to calculate the energy/force level at which the bullet struck JFK in the back; struck the bone of the neck; as well as compute the energy and velocity of the small 0.9 grain cone-shaped/flat-based fragment (CE840 missing fragment) of lead that was sheared from the base of the bullet due to impact.

Dr. Baxter - It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be---first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.

Mr. Specter - But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?

Dr. Baxter - Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.

Mr. Specter - Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet could have passed in the general direction which I have described to you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of great density?

Dr. Baxter - Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.

Mr. Specter - What would the situation there be as to the shock wave which you have heretofore described?

Dr. Baxter - There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is damage that is recognized several days later.

Mr. Specter - What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter - This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early course after a missile has passed through.

Mr. Specter - Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, and nature of the hole of exit?

Dr. Baxter - No.

--------------------------------------------------

Dr. CARRICO - As I recall, Dr. Perry, and I talked and tried after---later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound.

-------------------------------------------------------

Dr. JONES - The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious, amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps someone who has the proper weapon; bullets; range access; as well as equipment, can determine for us the velocity of a tumbling WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet at approximately the following:

1. Fired from Model 91/38 Carcano rifle in relatively good condition.

2. Range from rifle to tree limb:--------75 to 85 feet.

3. Range to measurement of velocity determination:-------185 feet.

Tom,

I have not read that the spinal column was deviated. I will look into that as it could be significant. The damage to the traverse process alone would have been minimal, and barely made a nick in the bone. Im not altogether certain this would hamper the accuracy of the velocity of the bullet in regard to the depth of the wound.

Determining penetration is rather simple when we know what the required energy is for a single inch of penetration. Further, and this is something I am working on, this could be directly related to the size and surface resistance of the projectile. If it requires 30 ft lbs of energy for a 161 grain projectile to penetrate one inch, with a surface area of 33.183mm then the resistance of human tissue can be calculated and velocity projected for much smaller fragments.

It would boil down to the fragment having enough velocity to transit the remaining distance after the projectile stopped its forward movement.

This is also something I have been looking into in regard to another thread discussing the fragment in the thigh with Jim Root.

One thing to consider in the case of a fragment, is that it lacks the weight to surface area ratio of the projectile on a whole.

Mike

Point!

A two-inch depth of penetration based on a "nose-first" impact, with only skin and flesh offering resistance, would correlate to one scenario.

A two-inch depth of penetration based on a "flat-base" of bullet impact, with only skin and flesh offering resistance, would correlate to another scenario.

Any (nose first or base first) penetration in which additional impact with the vertebral column absorbed the energy and diminished the velocity of the entering projectile upon impact, is another completely different scenario, which also severely impacts the actual depth of penetration.

Each would have their own elements of information which would require input in order to derive an approximate projectile velocity and transference of energy.

Reference to deviation the the trachea can be found throughout the testimony of the Parkland Doctors.

Deviation to the Spinal Column can be readily observed in the anterior/posterior X-ray of the neck.

In event that one does not have the experience to observe this for themselves, a good Radiologist would come in handy.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/index.html

P.S. one can also obtain nice copies of these photo's from the National Archives!