Georgians blame Saakashvili for war

[Maggie Hansen]

The Georgian Peace Committee declares asks World public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation.

Declaration of the Georgian Peace Committee

Once more Georgia was launched into a situation of chaos and bloodshed. A new fratricidal war exploded with renewed strength on Georgian soil.

To our great disappointment, the alerts of the Georgian Peace Committee and of progressive personalities of Georgia on the pernicious character of the militarization of the country and on the danger of a pro-fascist and nationalist policy had no effect. The authorities of Georgia once again organized a bloody war, feeling the support of some Western countries and of regional and international organizations. It will take decades to cleanse the shame poured by the current holders of the power over the Georgian people.

The Georgian army—armed and trained by U.S. instructors and using also U.S. armaments—subjected the city of Tskhinvali to a barbaric destruction. The bombings killed Ossetian civilians, our brothers and sisters, children, women and elderly people. Over 2,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and of its surroundings died.

Hundreds of civilians of Georgian nationality also died, both in the conflict zone as well as in the entire territory of Georgia.

The Georgian Peace Committee expresses its deep condolences to the relatives and friends of those who have perished.

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current president, on the Parliament and on the government of Georgia.

The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. There is no doubt the president of Georgia and his team are criminals and must be held responsible. The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti-popular regime of Saakashvili!

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008

[Paul Rigby]

The Georgian Peace Committee declares asks World public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation.

Declaration of the Georgian Peace Committee

Once more Georgia was launched into a situation of chaos and bloodshed. A new fratricidal war exploded with renewed strength on Georgian soil.

To our great disappointment, the alerts of the Georgian Peace Committee and of progressive personalities of Georgia on the pernicious character of the militarization of the country and on the danger of a pro-fascist and nationalist policy had no effect. The authorities of Georgia once again organized a bloody war, feeling the support of some Western countries and of regional and international organizations. It will take decades to cleanse the shame poured by the current holders of the power over the Georgian people.

The Georgian army—armed and trained by U.S. instructors and using also U.S. armaments—subjected the city of Tskhinvali to a barbaric destruction. The bombings killed Ossetian civilians, our brothers and sisters, children, women and elderly people. Over 2,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and of its surroundings died.

Hundreds of civilians of Georgian nationality also died, both in the conflict zone as well as in the entire territory of Georgia.

The Georgian Peace Committee expresses its deep condolences to the relatives and friends of those who have perished.

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current president, on the Parliament and on the government of Georgia.

The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. There is no doubt the president of Georgia and his team are criminals and must be held responsible. The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti-popular regime of Saakashvili!

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008

Just another Harvard-educated war criminal. Arrest him now!

[Len Colby]

I don't think they are a real group, they don't seem to have existed before the declaration. I called the phone number and I spoke to the "head" of the group he claims they have "about 1000 members in all of Georgia", I have my doubts. Even if true that comes out to about 1/46th of 1% of the population. Since his English is poor I will try to get more info via e-mail.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Len Colby

[Bob Goodman]

If you want to bump up those figures of yours, Len. You might want to call some of your friends from Tskhinvali. You know, the sleepy little provincial capital of South Ossetia that the Georgian Army snuck up on in the middle of the night and shelled. Shelled with artillery, for God's sake!!! Killed 1500 of his own Georgian citizens that night, our guy Saakashvili did (whatever passports they held, they were Georgians) according to the Russians, anyway. Those liars. Probably less, in fact, who knows? Let's say only 800-1200 killed. You get those numbers, Len? And these, town of 30,000/1500 killed/Percent of town destroyed/remaining population in province 50,000. What's that add up to? You do the math, Len. You're the numbers guy. And, mind you, our boy was just getting started. He sacked that town and now had the rest of the province to burn. Those dastardly Russians had the unmitigated gall to then INVADE (omg) and prevent further loss of life within an area that their peacekeepers died and where they were required by treaty, signed by Georgia, to maintain a peacekeeping force! What nerve. Who do they think they are, the good guys in white hats? Cowboys????? Yeah, gives them civilians and peacekeepers a nice wake up call, artillery will. Can't get more indiscriminate then artillery, you know. Artillery make it all fair, you're fair, aren't you, Len? Under pounding artillery, aimed by incompents in the dark of night, everyone has the same chance of living or dying. Men, women, children, babies....babies...and peacekeepers. Yeah, by treaty the Russians and Georgians had peacekeepers asleep in the town that night. Half of them were killed? Peacekeepers? By treaty? Yep, Russian, Georgian...and somebody else...maybe South Ossetians, Ukranians, I'm not sure. I don't know if any of the Georgian contingent of the peacekeeping force was killed by their own army that dark, silent night or if they were nice enough to let them know in advance to get the hell out of there. Either way, wouldn't suprise me, casualties of war, nature of sneak attacks, I guess. It's info that would be kept under wraps over here in the US in any event. What if half our peacekeepers were killed by a sneak artillery attack in the middle of the night without warning? How would our countries react? Anyway, see if those numbers amount to anything except happy days are here again for the MICC. Yeah, give them a call. Nothing better to do, right? Oh, btw, do you know what a direct hit of an artillery does to a 5 year old sleeping child, do you care? Maybe as long as there is a purpose, huh? Those purposes, somebodys purposes, sure not mine, sigh. So many times, I'm ashamed to be a human being. You see, I guess I'm just a self-hating human being so naturally you can just disregard anything I say. Just listen to the mockingbird, listen to the mockingbird.

[Len Colby]

The obvious intent of Maggie`s post, the declaration and the spin it is given on the Web is to create the impression of widespread support for the views expressed in it by the people of Georgia proper. That doesn`t seem to be the case. Even if we accept the man’s estimate his group only represents a minuscule fraction of a percent of his country’s population. To give an extreme example I imagine a far larger percentage of Americas and British remained sympathetic to the Nazi’s during WWII I also would be surprised if one could organize a similarly small number of South Ossetians who wish to remain part of Georgia.

As for civilian casualties According to the BBC even the Russians now say only 133 were killed and Human Rights Watch says the numbers are in the dozens. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm. According to one HRW article:

A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that ..there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded....The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm

In contrast to reports the city had been leveled the Russians now say "There are more than 7,000 buildings in South Ossetia's capital and one tenth of them are beyond repair," Blank said. About 20% of the city's buildings have suffered various damage, he said.

http://www.interfax.com/3/420066/news.aspx

According to a western journalist take n on a Russian tour of the city most of those buildings “appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center…Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows” On the other hand “Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8081202480.html

So if most of the injured were “military personnel” and most of the damaged building were government installations the logical assumption must be that most of those killed were military or at leat government workers.

I’m not defending Saakashvili’s invasion. If I were Georgian I think I be pushing for him to stepdown. I believe it was a stupid unnecessary escalation and that South Ossetia should be allowed to become independent but all the involved parties the Ossetians, Russians, Georgians and their respective supporters all acted and continue to act irresponsibly causing widespread death, injury, displacement and disruption of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems most people only take notice of or care about the suffering of one side

As for your benevolent peace keepers, the Russians, they seem to have caused a lot of civilian casualties in Gori and other Georgian cities. [see the HRW link above and http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08...ection=features ]

You also might want to do some research into the proposed natural gas and oil pipelines through Georgia that would circumvent Russians regional monopoly on those commodities if you really think the Russians concerns were only humanitarian, why do you think the US is so “buddy-buddy” with Georgia in the first place?

My view is “a pox on both your houses” to the Russian and Georgian governments but unfortunately the pox primarily affected Ossetian and Georgian civilians.

[Peter McKenna]

If you want to bump up those figures of yours, Len. You might want to call some of your friends from Tskhinvali. You know, the sleepy little provincial capital of South Ossetia that the Georgian Army snuck up on in the middle of the night and shelled. Shelled with artillery, for God's sake!!! Killed 1500 of his own Georgian citizens that night, our guy Saakashvili did (whatever passports they held, they were Georgians) according to the Russians, anyway. Those liars. Probably less, in fact, who knows? Let's say only 800-1200 killed. You get those numbers, Len? And these, town of 30,000/1500 killed/Percent of town destroyed/remaining population in province 50,000. What's that add up to? You do the math, Len. You're the numbers guy. And, mind you, our boy was just getting started. He sacked that town and now had the rest of the province to burn. Those dastardly Russians had the unmitigated gall to then INVADE (omg) and prevent further loss of life within an area that their peacekeepers died and where they were required by treaty, signed by Georgia, to maintain a peacekeeping force! What nerve. Who do they think they are, the good guys in white hats? Cowboys????? Yeah, gives them civilians and peacekeepers a nice wake up call, artillery will. Can't get more indiscriminate then artillery, you know. Artillery make it all fair, you're fair, aren't you, Len? Under pounding artillery, aimed by incompents in the dark of night, everyone has the same chance of living or dying. Men, women, children, babies....babies...and peacekeepers. Yeah, by treaty the Russians and Georgians had peacekeepers asleep in the town that night. Half of them were killed? Peacekeepers? By treaty? Yep, Russian, Georgian...and somebody else...maybe South Ossetians, Ukranians, I'm not sure. I don't know if any of the Georgian contingent of the peacekeeping force was killed by their own army that dark, silent night or if they were nice enough to let them know in advance to get the hell out of there. Either way, wouldn't suprise me, casualties of war, nature of sneak attacks, I guess. It's info that would be kept under wraps over here in the US in any event. What if half our peacekeepers were killed by a sneak artillery attack in the middle of the night without warning? How would our countries react? Anyway, see if those numbers amount to anything except happy days are here again for the MICC. Yeah, give them a call. Nothing better to do, right? Oh, btw, do you know what a direct hit of an artillery does to a 5 year old sleeping child, do you care? Maybe as long as there is a purpose, huh? Those purposes, somebodys purposes, sure not mine, sigh. So many times, I'm ashamed to be a human being. You see, I guess I'm just a self-hating human being so naturally you can just disregard anything I say. Just listen to the mockingbird, listen to the mockingbird.

At this point pretty much all news services agree that Georgia initiated aggression by bombarding South Ossetia (esp. Tskhinvali). So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al.

The number of killed, however, is still in contention:

133 killed:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9707908.asp?scr=1

Russian news claims 2000 were killed (changed from Russian claim of 1500 killed):

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28770

Various (and many) news services claim different numbers between 133 and 2000. Likely the number is less than 2000 but greater than 133.

Also claims of Russian retaliation in Gori and other cities include a large number of Georgians killed (175), as well as looting and other criminal behavior on the part of the Russians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/world/eu...georgia.html?hp

This seems to be clearly the result of a Georgian escalation in the perennial border conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia, where Georgia has committed a senseless and censurable act.

The details of the post Georgian attack are still coming in. Russia apparently is not innocent in this affair either, although if ever Russia could take the moral high ground in invading a neighboring country, this would be it.

Due to the affinity both sides have of putting spin on the news, I will wait before attempting to list the post August 7th and 8th casualties and/or atrocities by either side. Some already have the Russian News reports, or proxies, which is good enough to start the roll.

[Len Colby]

At this point pretty much all news services agree that Georgia initiated aggression by bombarding South Ossetia (esp. Tskhinvali). So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al.

The number of killed, however, is still in contention:

133 killed:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9707908.asp?scr=1

Russian news claims 2000 were killed (changed from Russian claim of 1500 killed):

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28770

Various (and many) news services claim different numbers between 133 and 2000. Likely the number is less than 2000 but greater than 133.

Peter - We seem to have cross posted. It will be interesting to see if the Russians move the estimate of civilian dead up again. The 133 figure is more inline with the estimates from Human Rights Watch. The only people still saying around 2000 civilians were killed are the Ossetian separatists who have plenty of motive to exaggerate the numbers for propaganda purposes the 2nd link was from August 9.

Also claims of Russian retaliation in Gori and other cities include a large number of Georgians killed (175), as well as looting and other criminal behavior on the part of the Russians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/world/eu...georgia.html?hp

I wonder when if ever we’re going to see a post from Paul condemning Putin the war criminal. Perhaps Georgian lives are worth less than Ossetian ones.

This seems to be clearly the result of a Georgian escalation in the perennial border conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia, where Georgia has committed a senseless and censurable act.

The details of the post Georgian attack are still coming in. Russia apparently is not innocent in this affair either, although if ever Russia could take the moral high ground in invading a neighboring country, this would be it.

At this point none of the sides have the right to "the moral high ground" hence all the spin. This however won't block supporters of either side from trying to paint this very gray tragedy black and white.

Due to the affinity both sides have of putting spin on the news, I will wait before attempting to list the post August 7th and 8th casualties and/or atrocities by either side. Some already have the Russian News reports, or proxies, which is good enough to start the roll.

[Peter McKenna]

At this point pretty much all news services agree that Georgia initiated aggression by bombarding South Ossetia (esp. Tskhinvali). So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al.

The number of killed, however, is still in contention:

133 killed:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9707908.asp?scr=1

Russian news claims 2000 were killed (changed from Russian claim of 1500 killed):

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28770

Various (and many) news services claim different numbers between 133 and 2000. Likely the number is less than 2000 but greater than 133.

Peter - We seem to have cross posted. It will be interesting to see if the Russians move the estimate of civilian dead up again. The 133 figure is more inline with the estimates from Human Rights Watch. The only people still saying around 2000 civilians were killed are the Ossetian separatists who have plenty of motive to exaggerate the numbers for propaganda purposes the 2nd link was from August 9.

Also claims of Russian retaliation in Gori and other cities include a large number of Georgians killed (175), as well as looting and other criminal behavior on the part of the Russians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/world/eu...georgia.html?hp

I wonder when if ever we’re going to see a post from Paul condemning Putin the war criminal. Perhaps Georgian lives are worth less than Ossetian ones.

This seems to be clearly the result of a Georgian escalation in the perennial border conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia, where Georgia has committed a senseless and censurable act.

The details of the post Georgian attack are still coming in. Russia apparently is not innocent in this affair either, although if ever Russia could take the moral high ground in invading a neighboring country, this would be it.

At this point none of the sides have the right to "the moral high ground" hence all the spin. This however won't block supporters of either side from trying to paint this very gray tragedy black and white.

Due to the affinity both sides have of putting spin on the news, I will wait before attempting to list the post August 7th and 8th casualties and/or atrocities by either side. Some already have the Russian News reports, or proxies, which is good enough to start the roll.

I have some good friends who are Soviet expatriates (although I have not spoken to any of them in well over a year). Their opinion of Putin was that he was a KGB thug who had chiseled and extorted his way into the power structure, bringing his sycophantic infrastructure up with him.

If you have ever known any Russians, they have a marvelous, and incredibly resilient, culture. I especially enjoy the Russian sense of humor, it is unique in this world. I can't explain its uniqueness. It is self deprecating, yet biting, acid/caustic in its vitriol, yet somehow charming, elegant, and personal.

A good friend of mine had left Russia under the Helsinki agreement in 1972. He was well educated, having a Masters degree in Philosophy, and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering. He had read over ten thousand books before turning thirty five and still had every one of them (he had quite a library). He was the number one ranked amateur middle weight boxer in the Soviet Union and at the same time he was the second ranked amateur middle weight boxer in Europe.

He had served as a Captain in the Russian Army.

Yet after all of his achievements, he had decided to leave Russia with almost no money, nothing. His wife was a computer programmer (this was in 1972) who wrote code for banks and banking systems. She was in immediate demand in the US (banks) and was soon a senior executive in the headquarters of a large US bank in New York.

The stories they told me of their treatment by the KGB (they were from among the Intelligentsia) were horrific. Despite their personal accomplishments and obvious wit and intelligence, they were treated like white collar slaves. They were arrested and questioned on a whim, and the KGB methods resembled the stories coming out of Guantanamo. What surprised me the most was the deeply rooted racism and bigotry running rampant within the KGB during Soviet times.

When Putin rose to power, these friends of mine (including other Russian expatriates I knew), realizing that Putin had been a KGB Colonel, and many of his advisors and associates, within the FSB (the modern day equivalent of the KGB), were also made up of ex-KGB, he warned me that these men had files on everyone, and would not hesitate to take whatever they wanted. They would soon control Russia.

He was right. Now the Russian government, the bureaucracy, important ministerial positions, are held by cronies of Putin. Many Oligarchs, who fought against Putin's policies, and who had controlled and owned much of Russia's vast wealth of natural resources, have been either imprisoned or killed and their wealth, confiscated and appropriated into the hands of these self same bureaucrats.

Once the war in Chechnya began and dissident journalists inside of Russia began dying, especially following the Moscow apartment bombings (300 dead, FSB agent nabbed with explosives before a second, worse disaster took place, however he ends up released on a technicality, or some such), Litvinenko’s murder, with the signature of the FSB, as if to say "We Did It!" and the school killings (children murdered), my friend advised me "They're back", meaning the same totalitarian rulers who terrorized the populace in Felix Dzerzhinzki's and Lavrentia Beria's time. The West didn't understand those men, how could you understand such brutality.

The same apologists who are crowing today about how good it is n Russia compared t the US, as they were back then, pandering to the same blanched story; people comparing western leaders to the same disguised psychopaths, because they simply do not understand. It must be Naivete, at least I hope its naiveté. The leaders in the west aren't perfect by any means, but there isn't really a comparison. The US has an utterly open and free government by comparison.

\

I got a bad case of déjà vu, again.

When I said they could take the moral high ground, I meant it was there for them to take, but they didn’t seem to want it.

I agree, we have to wait until the spin doctors have finished with the news to figure out what happened.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Peter McKenna

[Bob Goodman]

...."I’m not defending Saakashvili’s invasion. If I were Georgian I think I be pushing for him to stepdown."....

I wouldn't be suprised if soon the people of Georgia are in the streets trying to excrete Saakashvili, the "Butcher of Tsblisi" and his henchmen. Take a look at that cabinet sometime, btw. I got a laugh when I did. I think it's a great nickname I coined for him, don't you? "The Butcher of Tsblisi". I know it wasn't Tbilisi that he unleashed his Artillery on, it was Tskhinvali. But that doesn't have anywhere near the ring to it as "The Butcher of Tbilisi", don't you agree? And i-i-it's the Capital, right?...that kinda justifies it, sort of. Anywho, it sure does that have a nice ring to it. Feel free to help popularize it, it would be neat if it spread fast, wouldn't it? One thing about Saakashvili that you notice right away, besides the fact that he's certainly ready for "The Not Ready for Prime Time Players" and that he is a perfect replica of a 200 pound block of wood. After a few minutes, if you're preceptive, you'd also notice that you'd have to go a long way to find someone in whom the banality of evil was so well defined. His banality is at least as well defined as the orginal person to merit that nomenclature. I hope that my nickname for him takes off. It'd be cool. to see "The Butcher of Tbilisi" on the front page of a newspaper someday. I'd be so proud, can you help? Can you start refering to him as the "Butcher of Tsblisi" to your family and friends around the world that you call? You must spend a lot on phone bills. Or, if you could say, the "so-called Butcher of Tbilisi" would be even better. When you get a so-called in front of a phrase, let's face it, you've arrived. And the perfect words that would go with it in a front page headline would be "Convicted of War Crimes on all counts", don't you think? Phrases go together like peas and carrots, don't they?

...."I believe it was a stupid unnecessary escalation...."

August 20, 2008 Ruters used a similar euphemism, theirs was "Conflict between Georgia and Russia erupted when Georgia tried to reimpose control over the breakaway..(region)". "Reimpose control", "Escalation"...and hundreds, yes hundreds of other euphemisms like it are all over the so-called MSM. If you ever decided you wanted to compose a Dictionary of Euphemisms for an indiscrimanate suprise artillery attack in the dead of night on a sleeping defenseless City, now is the time!! Be a piece of cake, the media already did all the legwork! Just pick the gold! Ahhh, fortune passes everywhere. You see, Len, when one believes that a 5 year old child killed by a direct hit from artillery fired by a suprise artillery attack in the dead of night should properly be refered to as an "escalation". Len, thinking like that puts someone not far from madness. Occupational hazard in some jobs though, yours? But to tell the truth, Len, using euphemism's like that is a sign of a socipathic thought process.

Let's go to work some more, then you say you think...

"....that South Ossetia should be allowed to become independent but all the involved parties the Ossetians, Russians, Georgians and their respective supporters all acted and continue to act irresponsibly causing widespread death, injury, displacement and disruption of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems most people only take notice of or care about the suffering of one side...."

Oh my God, Len.!!! Except for placing the blame to the ones who initiated the violence ( such a minor point), you are right there! Run with it now.

...As for your benevolent peace keepers, the Russians...."

Len, I just told you it was an international force, there by treaty signed be the Georgians more then a decade ago.And the coaltion peacekeeping forces were composed not only of Russians but Georgians and...somebody else, I don't recall. Hey, you have any interns sitting around doodling that could look that up? I'm just too lazy. And, did I somehow infer that I thought of them as benevolent? Why is everyone in my life always putting words in my mouth?? That happen to you a lot, Len? Those coalition peacekeepers were no more or less noble than any other peacekeepers stationed by different armies, by different treatys around the world. Those dirty, rotten (happy now?) peacekeepers, or you could call them, sacrificial lambs, ( Russia, Georgia...and lets say South Ossetian, whatever they were) were stationed in town, sleeping in their barracks when the sneak attack occured, were there because of these treaty obligations. The "Butcher of Tsblisi" broke the treaty in a sneak attack and killed the peacekeepers (maybe the Georgian peacekeepers too, not sure, get those interns working, will ya?). And you know they had to be at least as benevolent as some of our own allied nation's "occupation" forces. My God, how could they not be? I'm sure they will follow up on their commitments a hundredfold more then some of occupiers that we support. You know who I'm talking about, don't you, Len? And finally this.

...You also might want to do some research into the proposed natural gas and oil pipelines through Georgia that would circumvent Russians regional monopoly on those commodities if you really think the Russians concerns were only humanitarian, why do you think the US is so “buddy-buddy” with Georgia in the first place?...

There you go again, Len. Engaging in some bizarre conspiracy theory. So tedious. But I will look into it if you do something for me. You're like a numbers-on-the-phone kind of guy, right? Call somebody, or whatever and get the me number and tonnage of artillery shells that struck Tskhinvali in the sneak attack. Number and size of the rounds would be the best!! While you're at it, get number of children under 12 years old who were killed in their sleep wearing spiderman pajama's. See, we can help each other! Got any kids yourself, Len? I've found that they really teach you how to properly view the world. They get your head on straight unless it's just too, too twisted. Couldn't recommend them more. And promise me that you'll start to use "Butcher of Tiblisi" in casual conversations with your friends, on the phone and in your posts.Thanks. I'll get you back for it, really.

Meanwhile Peter says,

...So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al. ...

He bombed civilian so he should be censured, Peter? That's it? No crimes against humanity? Nothing else? Censure, that's not even a slap on the wrists, is it? And how his method? Sneak nightime attack surly in aggravating what ever he is guilty of. The peacekeepers, Peter, how do you justify the deaths of the peacekeepers. Maybe the Russians were just supposed to take that, the deaths of their peacekeepers. Just watch them die and not respond. Is that right? The Butcher sure thought so. Brilliant guy, Columbia, you know. Might have a big library even. Don't look like he ever throws anything away either. Or, maybe you think that since the total number of deaths were low, so it's ok. People and numbers = arguments without resolution. To me, a crime against humanity can have but a single victim. My advice is, don't get caught up with numbers, Peter. It demonstrates naiveté.

Remember, "figures don't lie, but liars figure". It only gives advantage to the other side in moral arguments. Numbers give them something to argue about instead forcing them to focus on the central issues of the argument, thus they seek to obfuscate the argument without refuting the thesis. Cheap, Stoic trick. Little wonder no one liked them. The Stoics, that is. People used to chase them out of their villages, I think. Regardless of numbers, there is no argument regarding Saakashvili, the so-called "Butcher of Tbilisi"'s culpulbility in the sneak attack. You know or any of your ilk give any clear reasons why you believe the Russians are acting in bad faith? Just supportable facts, not conspiracy theory. Left wing conspiracy theories, Right wing conspiracy theories. Please, it just get's so tiresome, so trite.

[Len Colby]

You must spend a lot on phone bills.

Google Skype

Ahhh, fortune passes everywhere. You see, Len, when one believes that a 5 year old child killed by a direct hit from artillery fired by a suprise artillery attack in the dead of night should properly be refered to as an "escalation"

LOL and you complain about having words put in your mouth.

Len, thinking like that puts someone not far from madness. Occupational hazard in some jobs though, yours? But to tell the truth, Len, using euphemism's like that is a sign of a socipathic thought process.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your selective reading of my posts was unintentional take another look. Using similar logic I could argue that rationalizing Russia’s killing of Georgian civilians “is a sign of a sociopathic thought process”.

Let's go to work some more, then you say you think...

"....that South Ossetia should be allowed to become independent but all the involved parties the Ossetians, Russians, Georgians and their respective supporters all acted and continue to act irresponsibly causing widespread death, injury, displacement and disruption of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems most people only take notice of or care about the suffering of one side...."

Oh my God, Len.!!! Except for placing the blame to the ones who initiated the violence ( such a minor point), you are right there! Run with it now.

Read again as I did blame the Georgians. Who ‘started it’ unclear according to the Georgians the Ossetian attacks on Georgian civilians preceded their invasion of Ossetia however as I said this didn’t justify the invasion, on the other hand Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia didn’t justify Russia’s invasion of Georgia. The fact that Georgia seems to have tried to create a false flag incident with the other breakaway province complicates things because they cast doubt on the supposed ‘provocation’. The deaths of and attacks on Georgian civilians have been confirmed by outside observers and in some cases by the Russians themselves.

...As for your benevolent peace keepers, the Russians...."

Len, I just told you it was an international force, there by treaty signed be the Georgians more then a decade ago.

I was clearly referring to the troops that invaded Georgia.

And the coaltion peacekeeping forces were composed not only of Russians but Georgians and...somebody else, I don't recall. Hey, you have any interns sitting around doodling that And, did I somehow infer that I thought of them as benevolent? Why is everyone in my life always putting words in my mouth??

You with obvious sarcasm wrote:

"Those dastardly Russians had the unmitigated gall to then INVADE (omg) and prevent further loss of life within an area that their peacekeepers died and where they were required by treaty, signed by Georgia, to maintain a peacekeeping force!"

You conveniently chose to ignore their advance in Georgia proper.

That happen to you a lot, Len?

All the time, see above.

...You also might want to do some research into the proposed natural gas and oil pipelines through Georgia that would circumvent Russians regional monopoly on those commodities if you really think the Russians concerns were only humanitarian, why do you think the US is so “buddy-buddy” with Georgia in the first place?...

There you go again, Len. Engaging in some bizarre conspiracy theory. So tedious. But I will look into it if you do something for me. You're like a numbers-on-the-phone kind of guy, right? Call somebody, or whatever and get the me number and tonnage of artillery shells that struck Tskhinvali in the sneak attack. Number and size of the rounds would be the best!!

So you insinuate I’m sociopathic then you reply to a reasonable request to look into a probable motive for Russia’s actions about which abundant information is available on the Net with an absurd request like the one you proposed and you wish to be taken seriously? Do you understand the concept of logical fallacy?

Not that it was justifiable but the available evidence suggests that the artillery attack was not as large or indiscriminate as Russian propaganda and you suggest.

As for the pipelines see my next post.

While you're at it, get number of children under 12 years old who were killed in their sleep wearing spiderman pajama's. See, we can help each other! Got any kids yourself, Len? I've found that they really teach you how to properly view the world. They get your head on straight unless it's just too, too twisted.

There you go again insinuating I’m sociopathic. Yeah I have kids which is why I’m just as bothered by Georgian ones being killed as Ossetian ones. You only seem preoccupied by the latter shall I insinuate this indicates a character flaw on your part? Would that be fair and reasonable? If you continue to initiate personal attacks I will cease replying to you.

And promise me that you'll start to use "Butcher of Tiblisi" in casual conversations with your friends, on the phone and in your posts.

Only if you promise to refer to Putin as the “Butcher of the Kremlin” in the same circumstances.

[Len Colby]

Russia invited Azerbaijan on Wednesday to increase its oil exports through a pipeline from Baku to Novorrosiysk on the Russian Black Sea. Exports of Azerbaijani oil through the pipeline to Russia have slowed to a trickle since the Baku-Tbilisi-Cehyan pipeline began working in 2005.

Pipelines across the Caucasus have provided Caspian oil and gas producers with a first, non-Russian pipeline route to export markets. Russia is also pressing Azerbaijan to export gas through Russian pipelines, diverting supplies away from the route across the Caucasus.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1027bdb0-69e9-11...00779fd18c.html

BP has said it has resumed pumping gas through a pipeline that runs through Georgia after an EU-brokered truce between Russian and Georgian troops.

But a spokeswoman for the firm said a key oil pipeline that runs through the country remains shut as BP assesses the security risks to the surrounding area.

The oil pipeline can carry up to 90,000 barrels a day.

[...]

It had been hoped that transporting oil through Georgia would make the West less dependent on supplies from Russia.

But the outbreak of violence showed the precarious nature of the country as an energy transit route, the International Energy Agency (IEA) said in its monthly report released earlier this week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7561466.stm

In both geopolitical and economic terms, the United States appears a loser in the Russia-Georgia conflict.

If the pipeline crossing Georgia, bringing approximately a million barrels of Caspian oil a day to the West, remains shut down for much longer, it could result in higher oil prices.

"We could see $4 a gallon gasoline again," warns Edward Yardeni, an American consulting economist.

The 1,100-mile Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline provides only about 1 percent of the global demand for oil. But, as Prof. Michael Klare of Amherst College notes: "There's not a lot of spare [crude oil] capacity" in the world.

[...]

There have been plans to take the same Georgia route for a Caspian natural-gas pipeline ending in Europe. Klare considers the Russian action as partially a warning that this is not a good idea. Such a pipeline would offer serious competition to Gazprom, the giant Russian oil-and-gas conglomerate. Russia supplies one-quarter of the oil and half the natural gas consumed in Europe, and the revenue is seen as key to Russian prosperity. The European Union has been keen on the Georgia plan as a way to gain bargaining power and reduce the risk of supply cutoffs.

But the Russia-Georgia war may have reduced the prospects for such a gas pipeline getting financing and European backing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0816/p14s01-cogn.html

Klare harly seems sympathetic to the US's action in the region as he made clear in his interview on Democracy Now!

He did say however that the pipeline routes "was the basis on which the US forged a military alliance with Georgia. " and that The pipelines...

...run very close to South Ossetia, in particular, and I believe that the Russians have always been resentful of this effort by the United States to bypass Russia. Now, previously to this effort by the Clinton administration, subsequently embraced by the Bush administration, to establish bypass pipelines, previous to that, all of the pipelines from the Caspian Sea ran through Russia,

[...]

...the ambition of the Russian leadership, especially Vladimir Putin, to dominate the flow of oil and natural gas from the Caspian Sea to Europe, so they could maximize the profit and the political advantage of dominating the flow of Caspian energy to Europe. And by building these alternate pipelines, the US is trying to undercut Russia's political and economic power in Europe. That's what this is about. It's a geopolitical contest between the US and Europe for--between the US and Russia for influence in Europe.

So, by clinging to these enclaves, this is Russia's insurance policy, I guess you could call it, or veto power, over the American strategy, because they're saying, "From our positions in these enclaves, we can sever those pipelines whenever we want," which is exactly what they attempted to do this week. They did in fact bomb or attack the pipelines. And what they're saying to the Europeans is, "You can build pipelines through Georgia, but we can snap them whenever we want." And I think that the message that they've been sending to the Europeans is, "Don't think that you could build more pipelines through Georgia and they'll be safe. They'll never be safe."

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/15/russ..._fueled_by_rush

So,it's all about oil and gas - what a surprise!

[Bob Goodman]

I asked you to;

"promise me that you'll start to use "Butcher of Tiblisi" in casual conversations with your friends, on the phone and in your posts."

"Only if you promise to refer to Putin as the Butcher of the Kremlin in the same circumstances"

Len, you can't use the same name I made up. First of all it has zero ring to it, Four words not three. There's no rhythm to it. Nobody would use it. But the most important thing is, it's the same thing as mine!! That's just copying. That's what a my little brother would do. Look if you can't make up an original nickname for Putin for me to use, one that's any good, that is. Tell you what, I'll make one up for you and show you how easy it is. Might make a headline too, you never know.And I'll use it too but. it will be yours, ok? Here goes. ummm....."Vlad the Merciless, Czar of the East"!..Yeah, I Like it! See the rhythm? Catchy, I think. I will never refer to him as President Putin, or Comrade, or whatever again. "Vlad the Mericless pounds Tibilsi... Again!". Now that's a headline! You promised, remember that.

[Peter McKenna]

...."I’m not defending Saakashvili’s invasion. If I were Georgian I think I be pushing for him to stepdown."....

"....that South Ossetia should be allowed to become independent but all the involved parties the Ossetians, Russians, Georgians and their respective supporters all acted and continue to act irresponsibly causing widespread death, injury, displacement and disruption of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems most people only take notice of or care about the suffering of one side...."

Oh my God, Len.!!! Except for placing the blame to the ones who initiated the violence ( such a minor point), you are right there! Run with it now.

...As for your benevolent peace keepers, the Russians...."

...You also might want to do some research into the proposed natural gas and oil pipelines through Georgia that would circumvent Russians regional monopoly on those commodities if you really think the Russians concerns were only humanitarian, why do you think the US is so “buddy-buddy” with Georgia in the first place?...

There you go again, Len. Engaging in some bizarre conspiracy theory. So tedious. But I will look into it if you do something for me. You're like a numbers-on-the-phone kind of guy, right? Call somebody, or whatever and get the me number and tonnage of artillery shells that struck Tskhinvali in the sneak attack. Number and size of the rounds would be the best!! While you're at it, get number of children under 12 years old who were killed in their sleep wearing spiderman pajama's. See, we can help each other! Got any kids yourself, Len? I've found that they really teach you how to properly view the world. They get your head on straight unless it's just too, too twisted. Couldn't recommend them more. And promise me that you'll start to use "Butcher of Tiblisi" in casual conversations with your friends, on the phone and in your posts.Thanks. I'll get you back for it, really.

Meanwhile Peter says,

...So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al. ...

He bombed civilian so he should be censured, Peter? That's it? No crimes against humanity? Nothing else? Censure, that's not even a slap on the wrists, is it? And how his method? Sneak nightime attack surly in aggravating what ever he is guilty of. The peacekeepers, Peter, how do you justify the deaths of the peacekeepers. Maybe the Russians were just supposed to take that, the deaths of their peacekeepers. Just watch them die and not respond. Is that right? The Butcher sure thought so. Brilliant guy, Columbia, you know. Might have a big library even. Don't look like he ever throws anything away either. Or, maybe you think that since the total number of deaths were low, so it's ok. People and numbers = arguments without resolution. To me, a crime against humanity can have but a single victim. My advice is, don't get caught up with numbers, Peter. It demonstrates naiveté.

Remember, "figures don't lie, but liars figure". It only gives advantage to the other side in moral arguments. Numbers give them something to argue about instead forcing them to focus on the central issues of the argument, thus they seek to obfuscate the argument without refuting the thesis. Cheap, Stoic trick. Little wonder no one liked them. The Stoics, that is. People used to chase them out of their villages, I think. Regardless of numbers, there is no argument regarding Saakashvili, the so-called "Butcher of Tbilisi"'s culpulbility in the sneak attack. You know or any of your ilk give any clear reasons why you believe the Russians are acting in bad faith? Just supportable facts, not conspiracy theory. Left wing conspiracy theories, Right wing conspiracy theories. Please, it just get's so tiresome, so trite.

Mr. Goodman,

Prior to and following the disintegration of the Soviet Union, South Ossetia was part of Georgia. Since Russia has come to realize that it will expand its power base and its wealth through exercising control of Balkan and near Asian (Caspian) oil and gas pipelines, it has been systematically destabilizing Georgia though the patronization and military occupation of South Ossetia.

How would the USA be viewed if we had landed troops in Northern Ireland during the troubles in the 1970’s, offered the Irish Catholics US citizenship, then threatened Great Britain with war if they tried to intervene?

Peacekeepers? Since when has Russia ever involved themselves in the act of peacekeeping? Especially where Russia has had influence and has refused to exercise it to keep the peace?

What about the war of succession in the USA? Should Abe Lincoln be branded a war criminal in history books?

I think Saakashvili suffers from an age old problem in the region, that of bringing a knife to a gun fight. I said he should be censured for the bombing of civilian territory in South Ossetia. What he did was wrong, and decidedly an overreaction to, what was for him, a no-win situation, although I can understand his anger and frustration.

To brand Saakashvili a war criminal is ridiculous and sheer hypocrisy, especially for those Russophiles who looked the other way as Putin and his sycophants, as well as those before him have carried out; cold blooded murder, on their soil as well as on other country's, systematic genocide, and military occupation where it benefitted the bottom line, and especially the winter-time shutoff of heating oil and gas supplies to areas like the Ukraine, when political expediency demanded that the population of a sovereign country should freeze, until they saw things Moscow's way.

I think a bit of perspective is in order.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Peter McKenna

[Terry Mauro]

The Georgian Peace Committee declares asks World public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation.

Declaration of the Georgian Peace Committee

Once more Georgia was launched into a situation of chaos and bloodshed. A new fratricidal war exploded with renewed strength on Georgian soil.

To our great disappointment, the alerts of the Georgian Peace Committee and of progressive personalities of Georgia on the pernicious character of the militarization of the country and on the danger of a pro-fascist and nationalist policy had no effect. The authorities of Georgia once again organized a bloody war, feeling the support of some Western countries and of regional and international organizations. It will take decades to cleanse the shame poured by the current holders of the power over the Georgian people.

The Georgian army—armed and trained by U.S. instructors and using also U.S. armaments—subjected the city of Tskhinvali to a barbaric destruction. The bombings killed Ossetian civilians, our brothers and sisters, children, women and elderly people. Over 2,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and of its surroundings died.

Hundreds of civilians of Georgian nationality also died, both in the conflict zone as well as in the entire territory of Georgia.

The Georgian Peace Committee expresses its deep condolences to the relatives and friends of those who have perished.

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current president, on the Parliament and on the government of Georgia.

The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. There is no doubt the president of Georgia and his team are criminals and must be held responsible. The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti-popular regime of Saakashvili!

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008

********************************************************

http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/1999/storm_v..._pr_991203.html

EIR Releases 'Storm Over Asia' Video,

Hosted by Lyndon LaRouche

"Our fundamental interest as a republic, is to bring forth on this planet the hegemony of a community of sovereign nation-states, each of which has in common its commitment to the general welfare of its total population, and their posterity. Otherwise, it is not our intent to meddle in the internal affairs of these countries. It is sufficient for us that they are sincerely and seriously dedicated to promote the general welfare, as we understand the notion of the general welfare; and they understand that we as nations must stand together, against those forces of oligarchy, such as the British financial oligarchy, which are our natural enemies."

--Lyndon LaRouche, Storm Over Asia

Executive Intelligence Review magazine is pleased to announce the release of a vital policy report by Founding and Contributing Editor Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. "Storm Over Asia" is a two-and-a-half-hour video which explores, in depth, the current drift into a new global conflagration, and proposes a new American foreign policy, based on the best traditions of our Founding Fathers, to reverse that otherwise inevitable course towards war and economic ruin.

Mr. LaRouche, who is today one of three leading candidates for the Democratic Party 2000 Presidential nomination, reviews the ongoing crises in the Caucasus region along the southern tier of Russia, in the Indian subcontinent, in Africa, and in Ibero-America, exposing the hideous incompetence and worse, of the U.S. State Department under Madeleine Albright, and the outright geopolitical treachery of the Blair government in Britain. He develops the relationship between the ongoing collapse of the world financial and monetary system and the impulse towards regional, and, eventual global confrontation, drawing on the experiences of the two world wars of the 20th century.

LaRouche reviews his own role, during the period from 1977-1984, in promoting what President Ronald Reagan labeled the Strategic Defense Initiative, and how LaRouche came to the conclusion, by the autumn of 1988, that the Soviet empire was about to collapse and that the prospects for German reunification were immediately on the table. Instead of adopting LaRouche's proposals for a Marshall Plan and Food for Peace approach towards the nations of the collapsing Soviet bloc, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, U.S. President George Bush, and French President Francois Mitterrand, adopted an anti-German, anti-Russian geopolitical agenda, which led to the industrial collapse of Germany and the wholesale looting of Russia. This folly has led us to the bring of a new strategic confrontation.

To set the proper framework for understanding the current policy crisis and the appropriate solutions, LaRouche reviews the issues that shaped the American Revolution and the development of the idea of a community of principles among perfectly sovereign nation-states--the basis for John Quincy Adams' development of the American system of diplomacy. Later, LaRouche delves into the founding principles of Western Civilization, dating back to the period of the Greek Classics and the early Fathers of the Christian Church, tracing that tradition through the European Renaissance, and into the founding of the colonies in North America.

No one can claim to be prepared for the earth-shattering crises and life-and-death decisions that will face the next President of the United States, and world leaders on every continent, without studying this video report.

"Storm Over Asia" is available from Executive Intelligence Review magazine for $50.00 plus shipping and handling, and can be ordered from EIR News Service, Inc.; P.O. Box 17390; Washington, D.C. 20041-0390; or, on the web, from eirns@larouchepub.com; or, call toll-free, 1-888-347-3258.

[Len Colby]

So do you now plan on spamming all threads with the barely relevant pronouncements of that lunatic and his sycophants?