Priceless JFK History at the Minnesota State Fair

[Duke Lane]

Part of the problem in communicating with you is that your rambling seems very garbled.

A most original observation on your part. You seem to always want to pick a fight with me. Did Gary Mack say something nice about me to generate this? What price civility?

This is not a dramatic program. Nobody is 'playing' anybody. There are apparently people used as sit-ins in some of the footage. Or I should say, if this ends up being a drama I am going to be really disappointed.

A bad choice of words; I'm not in the film business, so to me - like most people, I'd imagine - someone who's "portraying" someone is "playing" them. "Sitting in" works for me. Semantics and a layman's naivete to technical terms.

I don't have the impression that it's a drama - more a documentary - tho' I'd imagine there will be some dramatic parts and, from what I gather, some aspects not dealing strictly with the car, per se. We'll see come November.

Setting that issue aside, what became of the original limo? I seem to recall having been at the car museum - where was it, Harrah's? - in Las Vegas, and them having a car purporting to be it or a close replica (and one of Hitler's vehicles as well, if I remember correctly). With so many mint Deusenbergs - a broad collection of some pretty fancy vehicles - it's hard to imagine them having a "fake," but I wouldn't know.

Working to raise my coherence level ...!

[Pamela Brown]

Part of the problem in communicating with you is that your rambling seems very garbled.

A most original observation on your part. You seem to always want to pick a fight with me. Did Gary Mack say something nice about me to generate this? What price civility?

This is not a dramatic program. Nobody is 'playing' anybody. There are apparently people used as sit-ins in some of the footage. Or I should say, if this ends up being a drama I am going to be really disappointed.

A bad choice of words; I'm not in the film business, so to me - like most people, I'd imagine - someone who's "portraying" someone is "playing" them. "Sitting in" works for me. Semantics and a layman's naivete to technical terms.

I don't have the impression that it's a drama - more a documentary - tho' I'd imagine there will be some dramatic parts and, from what I gather, some aspects not dealing strictly with the car, per se. We'll see come November.

Setting that issue aside, what became of the original limo? I seem to recall having been at the car museum - where was it, Harrah's? - in Las Vegas, and them having a car purporting to be it or a close replica (and one of Hitler's vehicles as well, if I remember correctly). With so many mint Deusenbergs - a broad collection of some pretty fancy vehicles - it's hard to imagine them having a "fake," but I wouldn't know.

Working to raise my coherence level ...!

The actual limo was gutted down to metal 3 weeks after the assassination and rebuilt into a completely bulletproof car. The 'logic' was that the president needed a limo and doing a rebuild would take less time than starting from scratch. The result was that evidence was destroyed, and the WC re-enactment in May, 1964, used the completely inappropriate Queen Mary II, the bulletproof SS vehicle which is behind SS-100-X in the Dallas motorcade photos, as the stand-in for the actual limo. The re-enactment, of course, was a disaster, and has led to mountains of incorrect information and interpretations being dumped on us as a result.

The actual limo went on to be used by LBJ (after being painted black, which it still is), Nixon and Carter before being retired to Henry Ford Museum. It is currently on display at the front of the museum, in a line of Presidential limousines, including the Coolidge Sunshine Special, the Eisenhower bubbletop, the Reagan limo (that saved his life) and the Bush 41 limo. It is an impressive display.

In June, I was flown to Detroit and interviewed in front of (actually at the back of) the limo. We started at 5:30 a.m., while the museum was dark and quiet. It was wonderful. We had chaperones who got us coffee and made sure we didn't touch the car. My interview was supposed to begin at 7:30, so I brought my notes with me to rehearse, as the producer had given all the lines I used in the SPEED channel documentary, plus some I had given him prior to this filming, to other people, such as David Talbot, who probably know very little about the limo. In fact, after I read the script the night before I said "You've given all my lines away. What do you want me to talk about?"

However, at 6:30, the producer said, "Let's do your interview." "What happened to 7:30?" I asked. As a result, my statements were not at what I would consider my most informative or witty level.

Here's a photo of the actual limo in its current configuration (but taken before it was moved to the front of the museum)

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Mike Williams]

Part of the problem in communicating with you is that your rambling seems very garbled.

A most original observation on your part. You seem to always want to pick a fight with me. Did Gary Mack say something nice about me to generate this? What price civility?

This is not a dramatic program. Nobody is 'playing' anybody. There are apparently people used as sit-ins in some of the footage. Or I should say, if this ends up being a drama I am going to be really disappointed.

A bad choice of words; I'm not in the film business, so to me - like most people, I'd imagine - someone who's "portraying" someone is "playing" them. "Sitting in" works for me. Semantics and a layman's naivete to technical terms.

I don't have the impression that it's a drama - more a documentary - tho' I'd imagine there will be some dramatic parts and, from what I gather, some aspects not dealing strictly with the car, per se. We'll see come November.

Setting that issue aside, what became of the original limo? I seem to recall having been at the car museum - where was it, Harrah's? - in Las Vegas, and them having a car purporting to be it or a close replica (and one of Hitler's vehicles as well, if I remember correctly). With so many mint Deusenbergs - a broad collection of some pretty fancy vehicles - it's hard to imagine them having a "fake," but I wouldn't know.

Working to raise my coherence level ...!

The actual limo was gutted down to metal 3 weeks after the assassination and rebuilt into a completely bulletproof car. The 'logic' was that the president needed a limo and doing a rebuild would take less time than starting from scratch. The result was that evidence was destroyed, and the WC re-enactment in May, 1964, used the completely inappropriate Queen Mary II, the bulletproof SS vehicle which is behind SS-100-X in the Dallas motorcade photos, as the stand-in for the actual limo. The re-enactment, of course, was a disaster, and has led to mountains of incorrect information and interpretations being dumped on us as a result.

The actual limo went on to be used by LBJ (after being painted black, which it still is), Nixon and Carter before being retired to Henry Ford Museum. It is currently on display at the front of the museum, in a line of Presidential limousines, including the Coolidge Sunshine Special, the Eisenhower bubbletop, the Reagan limo (that saved his life) and the Bush 41 limo. It is an impressive display.

In June, I was flown to Detroit and interviewed in front of (actually at the back of) the limo. We started at 5:30 a.m., while the museum was dark and quiet. It was wonderful. We had chaperones who got us coffee and made sure we didn't touch the car. My interview was supposed to begin at 7:30, so I brought my notes with me to rehearse, as the producer had given all the lines I used in the SPEED channel documentary, plus some I had given him prior to this filming, to other people, such as David Talbot, who probably know very little about the limo. In fact, after I read the script the night before I said "You've given all my lines away. What do you want me to talk about?"

However, at 6:30, the producer said, "Let's do your interview." "What happened to 7:30?" I asked. As a result, my statements were not at what I would consider my most informative or witty level.

Here's a photo of the actual limo in its current configuration (but taken before it was moved to the front of the museum)

Pamela,

Interesting tidbit. The Bush 41 car. I had read that Reagan's would be the last, and all post would be destroyed by the SS for security. Its good to know we have at least one more!

Mike

[Duke Lane]

The actual limo was gutted down to metal 3 weeks after the assassination and rebuilt into a completely bulletproof car. The 'logic' was that the president needed a limo and doing a rebuild would take less time than starting from scratch.

Prior to Dallas, JFK had been in Fort Worth and had been in a motorcade (not, to my knowledge, a parade as the next day). As I recall reading, there had been some consideration in Dallas on the 21st about where the Presidential limousine would be stored, including the possibility of it being in the police garage, but eventually it was decided to be at Love Field. It strikes me, too, that there are photos of SS-100-X at Love Field before Kennedy arrived.

What, then, did JFK ride in during his Fort Worth visit? SS-100-X? Another limo, similar or not? Was there thus only one limousine that LBJ could choose from? What was wrong with the one he'd ridden in as VP?

With the idea of there needing to be a car available for the President at each place he visits, and it presumably needing to be there when he arrives as opposed to arriving shortly after he does (at two of the three Presidential visits I've seen, Ford and Bush 41 were both essentially whisked from the plane into the car and then off the airport tut suite, which wouldn't be possible if the car they'd been in, in a different city was still on its way. Nixon, on the campaign trail in New Hampshire, actually pressed flesh before leaving), I'd presume there to have to be a small fleet of "the" Presidential limousine. Not so?

... We had chaperones who got us coffee and made sure we didn't touch the car.

I would imagine, then, similar to your close encounter at NARA, if one actually wishes to look closely at the car, one had best have a very, very good reason? Is the top still removable in its new configuration?

What is the history and pedigree of Nick Ciacelli's "replica" limo? By the latter I mean, if nobody wants to discuss details of SS-100-X for "national security" reasons (or whatever), how was an "exact duplicate" made of it, or how exact is it? Unfortunately, my good friends didn't give me a heads-up that it would be in Dallas when it was, so I didn't get a chance to see it.

[Pamela Brown]

The actual limo was gutted down to metal 3 weeks after the assassination and rebuilt into a completely bulletproof car. The 'logic' was that the president needed a limo and doing a rebuild would take less time than starting from scratch.

Prior to Dallas, JFK had been in Fort Worth and had been in a motorcade (not, to my knowledge, a parade as the next day). As I recall reading, there had been some consideration in Dallas on the 21st about where the Presidential limousine would be stored, including the possibility of it being in the police garage, but eventually it was decided to be at Love Field. It strikes me, too, that there are photos of SS-100-X at Love Field before Kennedy arrived.

SS-100-X arrived at Love Field the night before the assassination. It was stored in a garage there, and then cleaned and checked by the SS Friday morning.

What, then, did JFK ride in during his Fort Worth visit? SS-100-X? Another limo, similar or not? Was there thus only one limousine that LBJ could choose from? What was wrong with the one he'd ridden in as VP?

LCCs. No, LBJ could have kept Hoover's car, which was lent to him after the assassination. It, of course, was bulletproof.

With the idea of there needing to be a car available for the President at each place he visits, and it presumably needing to be there when he arrives as opposed to arriving shortly after he does (at two of the three Presidential visits I've seen, Ford and Bush 41 were both essentially whisked from the plane into the car and then off the airport tut suite, which wouldn't be possible if the car they'd been in, in a different city was still on its way. Nixon, on the campaign trail in New Hampshire, actually pressed flesh before leaving), I'd presume there to have to be a small fleet of "the" Presidential limousine. Not so?

The Presidential Limousine(s) are not always used everywhere the President travels. On a recent trip to Chanhassen, MN, W rode in an SUV, surrounded by other SUVs that al looked armored. They moved very quickly and had the highways cleared in advance, as well as cross-streets blocked. On another occasion in St. Paul, they did the same thing and whisked W around in SUVs.

The limousines are generally used when there are state events or motorcades, though I believe they are used in DC a lot. On the Dallas trip, SS-100-X went to San Antonio and I think then to Dallas, not all the stops on the trip. As far as JFK was concerned, when he wasn't riding in SS-100-X or Jackie's near-twin limo SS-297-X, he usually requested LCCs. In fact, FMC was very happy to provide the WHG with a fleet of vehicles wherever they went. This was fabulous product placement. As a result, we have many beautiful photos of JFK in LCCs.

... We had chaperones who got us coffee and made sure we didn't touch the car.

I would imagine, then, similar to your close encounter at NARA, if one actually wishes to look closely at the car, one had best have a very, very good reason? Is the top still removable in its new configuration?

There are ropes around the actual limo, beyond which you dare not pass. Everyone has equal access to that extent. Usually one of the rear doors is open, one of the jumpseats up, the other in place, so you can see them and the rear seat clearly.

However, to even qualify to have a HFM access person present, wearing rubber gloves, to fully open up the limo, as well as take measurements for us by holding a tapemeasure, you must have made arrangements with HFM in advance and have a very good reason. There was good footage taken of the interior of the limo, as well as beauty shots of the outside from different perspectives, on a rolling dolly.

What is the history and pedigree of Nick Ciacelli's "replica" limo? By the latter I mean, if nobody wants to discuss details of SS-100-X for "national security" reasons (or whatever), how was an "exact duplicate" made of it, or how exact is it? Unfortunately, my good friends didn't give me a heads-up that it would be in Dallas when it was, so I didn't get a chance to see it.

Nick's car deserves a book of its own, for it has a tale to tell far more interesting than the traveling pants, for example. Kevin MacDonald became a protege of Willard Hess of H&E. He wanted to build a replica limo. Hess supplied him with all the schematics and blueprints that he had. Kevin used them for his rebuild. This information is not available to the public and probably will never be, so Kevin took advantage of an extraordinary situation.

This replica does not have all the equipment in it that SS-100-X did, such as the heavy air-conditioners and heaters. I do not believe it weighs as much. I'll get more details tomorrow. But the basics of the construction are the same. The actual limousine now has a permanent roof, and a permanent privacy window.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Pamela Brown]

Duke,

You are correct, the DC crew filmed at 'a nearby airport' for the White House Garage footage. Nick has stills from the shoot arranged as a display poster, showing all the participants including, yes, your friend "Roy Kellerman".

Nick offered to let me wear the pink suit replica that he has, and probably used in Dallas, but it is a size 4, which I am not. I could have worn the hat, I suppose.

It's been amazing spending time nearly every day at the JFK Remembered exhibit. Now it is attracting over 20K visitors a day, and, next to the Minnesota Sequi-Centennial exhibit, is the most valuable exhibit at the Fair.

[Pamela Brown]

[Stephen Roy]

Congrats on the nice article, Pamela. You've done a nice job at becoming the authority on the limo. It must have been a bit eerie but rewarding to have been there to experience the replica and chat with interested viewers.

[Pamela Brown]

Congrats on the nice article, Pamela. You've done a nice job at becoming the authority on the limo. It must have been a bit eerie but rewarding to have been there to experience the replica and chat with interested viewers.

Thanks, Stephen. I've waited 45 years to see this car (a car that looked as 100X did on 11.22.63) and these last 12 days have been a unique gift. The JFK Remembered exhibit focuses on the life of JFK and this has been validating for me, as well as for all those who have had a chance to share in this exhibit. It has been an honor to talk with so many different people about the car -- actually, both cars, the replica and the actual. Most people can't understand why the actual 100x was gutted and rebuilt.

[David G. Healy]

Congrats on the nice article, Pamela. You've done a nice job at becoming the authority on the limo. It must have been a bit eerie but rewarding to have been there to experience the replica and chat with interested viewers.

Thanks, Stephen. I've waited 45 years to see this car (a car that looked as 100X did on 11.22.63) and these last 12 days have been a unique gift. The JFK Remembered exhibit focuses on the life of JFK and this has been validating for me, as well as for all those who have had a chance to share in this exhibit. It has been an honor to talk with so many different people about the car -- actually, both cars, the replica and the actual. Most people can't understand why the actual 100x was gutted and rebuilt.

So, whose word do we take, as gospel, that the "replica" is identical to the "original" 100X? And how do we verify that? Has anyone, anywhere attested: the replica, is identical to the original 100X, in-writing?

Glad you had a good show....

Edited August 31, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Pamela Brown]

So, whose word do we take, as gospel, that the "replica" is identical to the "original" 100X? And how do we verify that? Has anyone, anywhere attested: the replica, is identical to the original 100X, in-writing?

Glad you had a good show....

Thanks, David. Maybe it would help to know the history of 100X-2 in order to understand what it means to be a replica of 100X. Kevin MacDonald was a protegee of Willard Hess, of Hess & Eisenhardt, the company that built the original with the FMC. Willard Hess had all the blueprints and specs used for the original. They are not available to the public, and none of this information is at NARA.

Using these specs and blueprints, Kevin repeated the process and built 100X-2. I have met Kevin in Dallas and pored through his albums of photographs of the rebuild. I encouraged him to make a DVD of the photos and also include a presentation about what he did, but that has not happened. Instead, he has dropped out of the community.

Nick Ciacelli bought 100x-2 from Kevin some years ago.

100X-2 has the same frame as 100X. It has the same dimensions. There are differences, though, that, while subtle and not easily evident to someone just looking at the car, may affect our understanding of how the actual worked during the assassination. There is no rear seat hydraulic system in 100x-2. Therefore, the lower part of the rear seat is imo not as stiff as that of the original. You can sink into the upholstery, and it feels very comfortable. In the photos we have of 100X on 11.22.63 we see JFK sitting forward a bit, with his arm on the side of the car. This was not a very comfortable position. It may have been exacerbated by his back brace. So it is my opinion that the lower part of the rear seat of 100X-2 is more forgiving than that of the original.

Secondly, there never was a privacy window in place in 100X-2, as there was for three months in 100X. There may have been mechanics connected to that that remained in the original, adding to the weight of the car.

Third, 100X-2 does not have the two bulky air conditioners and heavy heater that 100X did. As a result, 100X-2 only weighs 6800 lbs without people, as opposed to 100X's 7800 lbs. This affects the way the weight of the car sits on the tires, the flexion that causes, and 100X-2 may sit up a bit higher than 100X as a result. The clearance for 100X-2 is 7.5".

There are other cosmetic issues about 100X-2 that are incorrect that I am encouraging Nick to redo -- the jump seats are shaped differently than those on 100X, and the bottom of the seat should be closer to the floor of the limo than they are. The metal handholds are thicker, too. But otherwise, as far as lights , 100x-2 was retrofitted by FMC with just what the original had; it has a 62 LCC grill and 15" tires (newer tires, though) which 100X also had.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Pamela Brown]

Since posting in this thread I have heard from Kevin MacDonald who built the replica limo that is featured in the JFK Remembered exhibit and will be at center-stage in the new Discovery Channel program.

Some of the information I posted was incorrect, in that I did not have all of the facts. There was no attempt on Kevin's part to buy back the limo he had sold to Nick. The producers of the movie JFK did contact him and invite him to be present during the filming. There was also no issue with Kevin's wife not liking the limo either.

[Pamela Brown]

What article? What 'show'? What color is the sky in your world?

Ouch! That was unnecessary.

I'd have to guess that I was talking about the article you provided a link to the article "Replica JFK Limo comes to State Fair" in the Eden Prairie News online. The show, I'm thinking, is the one referred to at the end of the article, in the sentence reading "McElwain-Brown was also interviewed at the Henry Ford Museum for an upcoming Discovery Channel program set to air on Nov. 4."

The sky is yellow and the sun is blue. Roy Kellerman is portrayed by a Dallas-area researcher.

Your speculations are way off. The program consists of a few different things, such as an interview with David Talbot wo wrote BROTHERS, and footage of the limo (using the replica limo) of Dealey Plaza, Love Field, Parkland and the White House Garage (simulated to look like). They will be following the timeline of the assassination. In addition, there is an experiment regarding the firing of Z-313 from, I think, two different locations. Then there are other interviews, including me as myself and Bob Casey, curator or Henry Ford Museum, done at Dearborn in front of the rebuilt limo. Nobody will be portraying any historical figures. Of course, they are also trotting out Gary Mack, who has had some say in the program itself, so we'll have to see just what the slant and conclusions end up being. I am hopeful that there will be objectivity, but have my reservations.

Seems that my posts are being monitored. Apparently this one caught the eye of someone who reported back to the DC. As a result I was rebuked by RE, producer of the show. I have also been recently cut loose, for reasons of 'time'.

These facts, coupled with the press release for the finished show, which describes only a shot from the TSBD, are beginning to give a clear indication as to the actual reason for doing the show in the first place.