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It doesn't matter how many times you tell creationists that Darwin's theory of evolution is not a theory about "the origins of life." (You can even point out that the title of Darwin's book was On the Origin of Species, not On the Origin of Life.) It doesn't do any good, they will ignore you or just keep huffing and puffing and try to blow your house down.

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Since you can't prove a word of that you are simply "taking it on faith", much like you are doing when it comes to evolution and the origins of life.

This is the creationists stock response I am afraid and it really amounts to little more than than the wholly unsupported cry "see you're as stupid as we are".

The fact that you seem to wish to oppose rational and scientific education is worrying but here is something to hopefully start you on a very long but important journey.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2065619921419809608

I see you have replied with the same old tired evolutionist argument as well..the religious are just...how did you put it...in your best educational tone...

"Creationism is a load of made up stuff favoured by the particularly retarded and primitive version of religion which unfortunately is at present undergoing an epidemic in the United States."

It appears reading is not your strong suit either, Please show me where I have ever stated in this discussion that I " oppose rational and scientific education ". Good luck with that one Andy. I'm guessing it will fall by the wayside just like the other questions you seem so afraid to answer.

Pretty sad state of affairs when educators want to limit discussing and instead simpy prefer to indoctrinate and ban. Sound quite like that f word once again.

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It doesn't matter how many times you tell creationists that Darwin's theory of evolution is not a theory about "the origins of life." (You can even point out that the title of Darwin's book was On the Origin of Species, not On the Origin of Life.) It doesn't do any good, they will ignore you or just keep huffing and puffing and try to blow your house down.

Tell me Ron exact WHERE have I stated ANYTHING about DARWIN and his book or THEORY? Oh thats right..you can't. Keek pimping away Ron...

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Keek pimping away Ron...

Before I had no honor. Now I'm a pimp. I think the fact that I detest you requires no explanation. That's why my post about evolution not being a theory of the origin of life (with or without "Darwin") was a general statement, not addressed directly to you. I have no desire or intent to discuss anything with you. Keep insulting away, Craig.

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Keek pimping away Ron...

Before I had no honor. Now I'm a pimp. I think the fact that I detest you requires no explanation. That's why my post about evolution not being a theory of the origin of life (with or without "Darwin") was a general statement, not addressed directly to you. I have no desire or intent to discuss anything with you. Keep insulting away, Craig.

"Keep insulting away, Craig."

No problem Ron. Actually yuu earned your pimp title with your Chaney comments...how soon you foprget

I don't find you to be a admirable person so I guess it kind of evens out so to speak. I'll await your next post where you don't want to discuss anything with me but you write to discuss somethng...like your last post.

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Oh my god I am in a cult.

Didnt we all see and hear Secretary Paulson tell the world that the US citizens would be on the hook for trillions of dollars in bad debt? I'll bet the financial markets take off like a rocket today now that they believe they can transfer their losses to the US Government.

And you take credit for influencing GG Allin? Was it your idea to have him take the photo with his "arse" sticking in the air preparing a bowel movement? That's quite a testimonial to your intellect. Artistic expression protected by the 1st amendment?

And why should anyone study Lyndon LaRouche? He's only been doing this since before you were "crapping" in your mouth.

Why not check out this article by Richard Freeman March 2003. They already had this mess pegged 5-1/2 years before Paulson's treasonous announcement of Friday September 5, 2008.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3010ofheo_rpt.html

Sorry not impressed, “psychics” have a scam, they make lots of vague predictions several of which common sense dictates are likely to happen. Then when a couple come true they want you to be impressed with their 'prophetic' abilities. Freeman didn’t even pull that off his essay:

- was based on a government report, it not something he figured out on his own

- got the situation backwards it predicted problems at Freddie Mae / Fanny Mac would trigger problems for the mortgage market.

-

Nor was he the only person outside the gov’t agency that produced the report to pick up on it or the potential problem. A Google search for the report’s name "Systemic Risk: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Role of OFHEO", returns dozens of hits.One of the first is from a site called housingbubble.com was posted February 5, 2003. The site itself has been online since some time before August 19, 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/20020819234848/...ing-bubble.com/ and pages dating back to May of that year which discuss a housing bubble are linked to it. By contrast your guru’s disciple only published his essay March 14, 2003. Trust me as some whose family was trying to sell an apartment in NYC at the time, lots of people were talking about the real estate bubble in the months following 9/11.

You’re right LaDouche has been peddling his rubbish since before I was born. But age doesn’t always equal wisdom, Willis Carto father of the Holocaust denial and neo-Nazi movements in the US and one of the country’s most virulent racists has been going since before your messiah. They even had a meeting of the minds a few decades back. Some of your guru’s “wisdom”:

• LaRouche delivers racist rant (April 12) against Senator Obama, slams Obama's mother for race mixing. "If you chase his [Obama's] family tree, everybody's climbing and swinging from the branches....Every monkey in every tree, from every part of the world, has participated in the sexual act of producing him."

[...]

• LaRouche compares jazz musicians to monkeys (2006). This is pretty much what he said about Obama but in raunchier and more insulting language.

2. LAROUCHE'S RECORD OF RELENTLESS RACISM

• "Zombie Killers Out of Control" (June 1974). The rhetoric of this LaRouche leaflet is almost indistinguishable from that of the Ku Klux Klan: "This summer you will be walking down the street with your family and a cruising car will pull up beside you. A group of young black men will jump out of the car and surround you. As they close in, you may notice that their eyes show no emotion, their pupils are pinpoints. Your throat will be slashed, your wife will be stabbed, your children's heads will be smashed against the pavement. The attackers will be grinning or laughing."

• LaRouche is really not fond of black mothers. In "The Politics of Male Impotence" (1973), he writes: "What is the sickness inside so many of our members whcih [sic] causes them to awfully admire the image of the Black Ghetto mother? Can we imagine anything much more viciously sadistic than the Black Chetto [sic] mother?" Note his use of "anything" rather than "anyone."

• Cleansing the continent of "miserable" and "bestial" cultures. LaRouche says it was "absolutely" correct for the "American branch of European humanist culture" to grab all the land from the "miserable, relatively bestial culture of indigenous Americans." (Note that he lumps hundreds of tribes, language groups and ancient peoples into a single undifferentiated culture.) And the same thing goes for those miserable Mexicans after the War of 1848: "We do not regard all cultures and nations as equally deserving of sovereignty or survival." (The page image is from The Case of Walter Lippmann, LaRouche's 1977 prescription for fascism in the United States.)

• "Drunken Indians"? In this page from "What Happened to Integration?" (The Campaigner, August 1975), LaRouche argues that the assimilation of "backward" cultures into a modern industrial economy results in "a significant diminution of the paranoid tendencies--those same paranoid tendencies which cause the notorious wildness of the 'drunken Indian.' It is not the primitive individual's genetic disposition which makes him pathetically susceptible to effects of alcohol in that way; it is the relative paranoia characteristic of the primitiveness of the culture in which he was matured."

• Subhuman orientals? LaRouche claims (in "What Happened to Integration?" The Campaigner, August 1975) that (a) the Chinese peasantry represents a paranoid personality type rooted in cultural backwardness; (:lol: the "paranoid personality and lower forms of animal life share a parallel general form of fundamental distinction from actual human personalities"; and © persons from paranoid cultures, such as the "oriental village commune," tend to "[approximate] the lower animal species" and to that extent are "incapable of sustaining a stable guiding moral structure for [their] behavior."

• "Monkeys and baboons"? LaRouche lashes out against African-American Congresswoman Barbara Jordan re her civil rights-oriented speech at the 1976 Democratic Party convention. Calls her views "bestial" and "hideous." Says that in a LaRouchian "republic" the law would be "hostile to those kinds of distinctions among human beings which would be proper to the classification of varieties of monkeys and baboons." (Excerpted page is from The Case of Walter Lippmann (1977), available today on the website of the LaRouche Youth Movement, where it is described as a "classic.")

• Mayan beast-men and Amazon zoo people? This is Chap. 11 of The Plot to Annihilate the Armed Forces and the Nations of Ibero-America, a kind of Mein Kampf for Latin American military officers and death-squad supporters published by the LaRouche organization in 1994 in both Spanish and English. Filled with artfully worded racist descriptions of indigenous peoples in Central America and the Amazon basin. Claims the Mayas today represent a "failed" civilization that was "saved" from the consequences of its failure by the arrival of the enlightened Conquistadores. Suggests that the ungrateful wretches are now plotting to stab the nation-states of the region in the back and dismember their territories. Says that some Mayan leaders today are also attempting to promote a "bestial concept of 'Indian religion.'" Calls Brazil's Yanomami reserve a "zoo," and expresses indignation that a British museum with the backing of the Human Genome Organization intends to preserve frozen samples of the tribe's gene pool.

• If they get uppity, kill 'em. Since the early 1980s, LaRouche's organization has encouraged the violent assaults by rightist death squads on indigenous peoples in Mexico, Guatemala and elsewhere. Here are numerous examples of the sadistic and racist propaganda of LaRouche and his followers that may have had an effect in unstable countries where Spanish-language LaRouchian propaganda is widely circulated and LaRouche's private intelligence apparatus has long been active.

• Subhuman music? Here are selected pages (with highlighting) from "The Racist Roots of Jazz," which appeared in the Sept.-Oct. 1980 issue of The Campaigner. Although author Peter Wyer, who later left the LaRouche organization, appears in this article to sincerely regard himself as opposed to racism, the delusional ideology he embraces leads him into making absurdly bigoted judgments.

Basically this article argues that jazz and the blues were invented by an evil Jewish-British cabal using black prostitutes and drug addicts as its puppets. The underlying assumption, although never directly stated, is that black people lack the creativity to develop a valid form of music on on their own. Wyer believes that black musicians should have worked exclusively in the European classical tradition (he grudgingly concedes there is some merit in Scott Joplin's work because Joplin "studied with an old German musician" in Texas). Wyer also expresses scorn again and again for individual jazz artists; for instance, he refers to the "psychotic honkings" of saxophonist John Coltrane which supposedly represent "yet another step towards truly un-mediated psychosis in black music, in the name of black rebellion."

[…]

http://lyndonlarouche.org/larouche-obama-menu.htm#two

I imagine you will claim he and his underlings never said these things but most are backed by scans of his pamphlets, all forgeries I suppose all part of an elaborate plot to defame him right? I liked the "zombies" one it went on about how NYC largest methadone program was a giant CIA brain washing opweration.

I said earlier I’d cease engaging you, that applied to a specific thread but I’ll extend it to this one as your messiah is irrelevant to this the topic and irrelevant period.

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Oh my god I am in a cult.

Didnt we all see and hear Secretary Paulson tell the world that the US citizens would be on the hook for trillions of dollars in bad debt? I'll bet the financial markets take off like a rocket today now that they believe they can transfer their losses to the US Government.

And you take credit for influencing GG Allin? Was it your idea to have him take the photo with his "arse" sticking in the air preparing a bowel movement? That's quite a testimonial to your intellect. Artistic expression protected by the 1st amendment?

And why should anyone study Lyndon LaRouche? He's only been doing this since before you were "crapping" in your mouth.

Why not check out this article by Richard Freeman March 2003. They already had this mess pegged 5-1/2 years before Paulson's treasonous announcement of Friday September 5, 2008.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3010ofheo_rpt.html

Sorry not impressed, “psychics” have a scam, they make lots of vague predictions several of which common sense dictates are likely to happen. Then when a couple come true they want you to be impressed with their 'prophetic' abilities. Freeman didn’t even pull that off his essay:

- was based on a government report, it not something he figured out on his own

- got the situation backwards it predicted problems at Freddie Mae / Fanny Mac would trigger problems for the mortgage market.

-

Nor was he the only person outside the gov’t agency that produced the report to pick up on it or the potential problem. A Google search for the report’s name "Systemic Risk: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Role of OFHEO", returns dozens of hits.One of the first is from a site called housingbubble.com was posted February 5, 2003. The site itself has been online since some time before August 19, 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/20020819234848/...ing-bubble.com/ and pages dating back to May of that year which discuss a housing bubble are linked to it. By contrast your guru’s disciple only published his essay March 14, 2003. Trust me as some whose family was trying to sell an apartment in NYC at the time, lots of people were talking about the real estate bubble in the months following 9/11.

You’re right LaDouche has been peddling his rubbish since before I was born. But age doesn’t always equal wisdom, Willis Carto father of the Holocaust denial and neo-Nazi movements in the US and one of the country’s most virulent racists has been going since before your messiah. They even had a meeting of the minds a few decades back. Some of your guru’s “wisdom”:

• LaRouche delivers racist rant (April 12) against Senator Obama, slams Obama's mother for race mixing. "If you chase his [Obama's] family tree, everybody's climbing and swinging from the branches....Every monkey in every tree, from every part of the world, has participated in the sexual act of producing him."

[...]

• LaRouche compares jazz musicians to monkeys (2006). This is pretty much what he said about Obama but in raunchier and more insulting language.

2. LAROUCHE'S RECORD OF RELENTLESS RACISM

• "Zombie Killers Out of Control" (June 1974). The rhetoric of this LaRouche leaflet is almost indistinguishable from that of the Ku Klux Klan: "This summer you will be walking down the street with your family and a cruising car will pull up beside you. A group of young black men will jump out of the car and surround you. As they close in, you may notice that their eyes show no emotion, their pupils are pinpoints. Your throat will be slashed, your wife will be stabbed, your children's heads will be smashed against the pavement. The attackers will be grinning or laughing."

• LaRouche is really not fond of black mothers. In "The Politics of Male Impotence" (1973), he writes: "What is the sickness inside so many of our members whcih [sic] causes them to awfully admire the image of the Black Ghetto mother? Can we imagine anything much more viciously sadistic than the Black Chetto [sic] mother?" Note his use of "anything" rather than "anyone."

• Cleansing the continent of "miserable" and "bestial" cultures. LaRouche says it was "absolutely" correct for the "American branch of European humanist culture" to grab all the land from the "miserable, relatively bestial culture of indigenous Americans." (Note that he lumps hundreds of tribes, language groups and ancient peoples into a single undifferentiated culture.) And the same thing goes for those miserable Mexicans after the War of 1848: "We do not regard all cultures and nations as equally deserving of sovereignty or survival." (The page image is from The Case of Walter Lippmann, LaRouche's 1977 prescription for fascism in the United States.)

• "Drunken Indians"? In this page from "What Happened to Integration?" (The Campaigner, August 1975), LaRouche argues that the assimilation of "backward" cultures into a modern industrial economy results in "a significant diminution of the paranoid tendencies--those same paranoid tendencies which cause the notorious wildness of the 'drunken Indian.' It is not the primitive individual's genetic disposition which makes him pathetically susceptible to effects of alcohol in that way; it is the relative paranoia characteristic of the primitiveness of the culture in which he was matured."

• Subhuman orientals? LaRouche claims (in "What Happened to Integration?" The Campaigner, August 1975) that (a) the Chinese peasantry represents a paranoid personality type rooted in cultural backwardness; (B) the "paranoid personality and lower forms of animal life share a parallel general form of fundamental distinction from actual human personalities"; and © persons from paranoid cultures, such as the "oriental village commune," tend to "[approximate] the lower animal species" and to that extent are "incapable of sustaining a stable guiding moral structure for [their] behavior."

• "Monkeys and baboons"? LaRouche lashes out against African-American Congresswoman Barbara Jordan re her civil rights-oriented speech at the 1976 Democratic Party convention. Calls her views "bestial" and "hideous." Says that in a LaRouchian "republic" the law would be "hostile to those kinds of distinctions among human beings which would be proper to the classification of varieties of monkeys and baboons." (Excerpted page is from The Case of Walter Lippmann (1977), available today on the website of the LaRouche Youth Movement, where it is described as a "classic.")

• Mayan beast-men and Amazon zoo people? This is Chap. 11 of The Plot to Annihilate the Armed Forces and the Nations of Ibero-America, a kind of Mein Kampf for Latin American military officers and death-squad supporters published by the LaRouche organization in 1994 in both Spanish and English. Filled with artfully worded racist descriptions of indigenous peoples in Central America and the Amazon basin. Claims the Mayas today represent a "failed" civilization that was "saved" from the consequences of its failure by the arrival of the enlightened Conquistadores. Suggests that the ungrateful wretches are now plotting to stab the nation-states of the region in the back and dismember their territories. Says that some Mayan leaders today are also attempting to promote a "bestial concept of 'Indian religion.'" Calls Brazil's Yanomami reserve a "zoo," and expresses indignation that a British museum with the backing of the Human Genome Organization intends to preserve frozen samples of the tribe's gene pool.

• If they get uppity, kill 'em. Since the early 1980s, LaRouche's organization has encouraged the violent assaults by rightist death squads on indigenous peoples in Mexico, Guatemala and elsewhere. Here are numerous examples of the sadistic and racist propaganda of LaRouche and his followers that may have had an effect in unstable countries where Spanish-language LaRouchian propaganda is widely circulated and LaRouche's private intelligence apparatus has long been active.

• Subhuman music? Here are selected pages (with highlighting) from "The Racist Roots of Jazz," which appeared in the Sept.-Oct. 1980 issue of The Campaigner. Although author Peter Wyer, who later left the LaRouche organization, appears in this article to sincerely regard himself as opposed to racism, the delusional ideology he embraces leads him into making absurdly bigoted judgments.

Basically this article argues that jazz and the blues were invented by an evil Jewish-British cabal using black prostitutes and drug addicts as its puppets. The underlying assumption, although never directly stated, is that black people lack the creativity to develop a valid form of music on on their own. Wyer believes that black musicians should have worked exclusively in the European classical tradition (he grudgingly concedes there is some merit in Scott Joplin's work because Joplin "studied with an old German musician" in Texas). Wyer also expresses scorn again and again for individual jazz artists; for instance, he refers to the "psychotic honkings" of saxophonist John Coltrane which supposedly represent "yet another step towards truly un-mediated psychosis in black music, in the name of black rebellion."

[…]

http://lyndonlarouche.org/larouche-obama-menu.htm#two

I imagine you will claim he and his underlings never said these things but most are backed by scans of his pamphlets, all forgeries I suppose all part of an elaborate plot to defame him right? I liked the "zombies" one it went on about how NYC largest methadone program was a giant CIA brain washing opweration.

I said earlier I’d cease engaging you, that applied to a specific thread but I’ll extend it to this one as your messiah is irrelevant to this the topic and irrelevant period.

Why bother to respond? Now you're ranting about “psychics" and how you don't trust them. Great!

But please tell me what could be more racist, irrational, and satanic then GG Allin, leather chaps, fornication/rape on stage, while parading around his own crap, screaming satanic verses to the ritualistic banging of electric guitars and drums? This is your world so please explain it.

In case you didnt understand the article it had nothing to do with "chicken or egg". LaRouche forecast in May 1994 that the post Bretton Woods monetary system was headed for collapse. The fact that it is manifesting itself in the housing market right now is not really that important. What is important is taking action to prevent the kind of chaos that threatens to erupt as a result.

Too bad the late Henry Gonzales is not alive, or Kennedy's press secretary Piere Salinger, or Eugene Mcarthy. They were all personal friends of Lyndon LaRouche. I'm sure they would shake their head at the method you employ to win an argument. It's crap, smelling worse than anything GG let loose on stage, (for the most part :lol: )

You might ask yourself why House Banking Chairman Henry Gonzales allowed EIR's John Hofle to give testimony before his committee in 1993? Especially given that "you're not impressed".

But you keep sniffing those turds and digging them up. That's one job you seem to be good at.

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The Republicans want us to focus on personalities and forget about the issues. Let's focus on a few personalities then -- where is Osama Bin Laden? Are they really going to let him slip off into the wilderness after making such a fuss and going to war in Afghanistan? And where is Mullah Omar? Are we supposed to forget about him too?

Last but not least, let us not forget Lt. Scott Speicher, whose fighter jet crashed the first night of the first Iraq War. Finding him was one of the main reasons, according to W, for going to war in Iraq. But then, by the following May, when W declared "mission accomplished", he had forgotten about Speicher too.

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Sure teach creationism, as part of religious studies where it belongs...

Exactly. Creationism because it is based in faith, and evolution because it is based in science. Individuals - or parents - can say that in this respect, they accept faith over science, and that is perfectly okay. Just don't confuse creationism belonging in a science class.

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Creationism is religion. Should we teach religion is science class? What about the separation of church and state?

Seperation of church and state? Exactly how does that apply in this in instance?

The problem is that we don't teach religion in our schools, lest we 'offend" someone. Heck in most places singing christmas carrols is impossible. In the case of the origins of life, science has a theory, back by incomplete evidence, and it must be taken on FAITH that the theory is correct, given that the evidence in incomplete. We don't know that the thjerory for the origins ofg life is correct. So whats the harm in saying so and then pointing out there may other possibilities such as intelligent design or creation?

I have great respect for science. I also know that science sometime make the wrong conclusions. And some things are simply beyond the current state of science and perhaps will always be.

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The Republicans want us to focus on personalities and forget about the issues. Let's focus on a few personalities then -- where is Osama Bin Laden? Are they really going to let him slip off into the wilderness after making such a fuss and going to war in Afghanistan? And where is Mullah Omar? Are we supposed to forget about him too?

Last but not least, let us not forget Lt. Scott Speicher, whose fighter jet crashed the first night of the first Iraq War. Finding him was one of the main reasons, according to W, for going to war in Iraq. But then, by the following May, when W declared "mission accomplished", he had forgotten about Speicher too.

Bin Laden..most likely dead, in Tora Bora. Omar...most likely still chasing him around the moutains of Afganistan. Speicher...who knos, but there has be a very detailed search for him to no avail.

You are really grasping at straws as your liberal canidates start to circle down the drain. Sheesh look at 'the one" trying to be McCain lite! He was against tax cuts for the rich until just a few days ago when he flips to being FOR them! Suddenly he is just finding out that tax increases HURT the economy! Thats gonna leave a mark on all of those silly collage age voters going on 'feelings" LOL!

Then he tell us he wanted to join the military but alas there were no wars going on and no one to kill so he passed. It seems it he could have only capped a commie he just might have been just as tough as McCain! Yea, lets talk personalities....your zerobama is certainly one to be sure!

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Sure teach creationism, as part of religious studies where it belongs...

Exactly. Creationism because it is based in faith, and evolution because it is based in science. Individuals - or parents - can say that in this respect, they accept faith over science, and that is perfectly okay. Just don't confuse creationism belonging in a science class.

Evolution may be based on science but it too is a leap of faith when it comes to the origins of life. If indivduals or parents can say it why not teachers? Which brings us back to the point that Andy refuses to deal with. Lets suppose that a student in a science class simply will not take it on faith that science has made the correct guess, and instead chooses to take it on faith that his religion has. How would this student be graded?

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Creationism is religion. Should we teach religion is science class? What about the separation of church and state?

Seperation of church and state? Exactly how does that apply in this in instance?

The problem is that we don't teach religion in our schools, lest we 'offend" someone. Heck in most places singing christmas carrols is impossible. In the case of the origins of life, science has a theory, back by incomplete evidence, and it must be taken on FAITH that the theory is correct, given that the evidence in incomplete. We don't know that the thjerory for the origins ofg life is correct. So whats the harm in saying so and then pointing out there may other possibilities such as intelligent design or creation?

I have great respect for science. I also know that science sometime make the wrong conclusions. And some things are simply beyond the current state of science and perhaps will always be.

Craig I imagine there is a college or university near you,perhaps you should run you misunderstanding by one of the biology profs there. There is no no doubt in the scientific community about the validity of evolution. It is only unproven to the extent we can't travel back in time and observe it taking place. Relativity is also still classified as a "theory" but the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and energy created by various nuclear power plant is quite real. You think Creation should be taught as an equally valid theory but it is backed by only a handful of scientists only one ,a bio-chemist, with expertise in a relevant field. All last time I checked were evangelical Christians.It makes just as much sense to teach the Kayapo creation myth or Elijah Mohammed's evolutionary theories.

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